Otto Warmbier

Meltdown99

bootlegger10 said:

What happened to him is exactly why he went to North Korea.  He went there because it is a country that does this to its visitors and he wanted the rush of traveling in a dangerous place.  He didn’t deserve what happened to him, but he knew the odds and lost.  

HesCalledDyer

Jesus Christ the lack of sympathy and empathy some of you have for a fellow human being’s life is seriously fucking disturbing.

bootlegger10

HesCalledDyer said:

Jesus Christ the lack of sympathy and empathy some of you have for a fellow human being’s life is seriously fucking disturbing.

 And your false outrage is pathetic.  You don’t see the big picture in this at all.  This dumbass wanting to go party in a dangerous place could have impacted millions of people.  What if a seal team would have been sent in to get him?  Instead of trying to get the other three US prisoners there the US was spending political capital trying to get Otto back because again, he wanted to tell his friends he spent New Years in North Korea.  You completely and utterly fail to see the big picture.  Decisions have ramifications.  We feel bad for the family still but also have brains.  His family must be filled with sadness, embarrassment and guilt.

Tell me, why did he go to North Korea?    You can’t answer that question truthfully without contradicting yourself.

Meltdown99

If he was smart enough to travel abroad and study abroad, then he should be smart enough to know that there is a huge risk of travelling to any country, but a bigger risk of travelling to countries like NK who hope Americans who visit there will do something stupid so they have a propaganda tool to parade out to the world...he made the choice to go there.

dignin

my2hands said:

Family says his teeth were horribly mangled...... medical examiner said his teeth were fine

Family said his arms and legs looked misformed... said he looked like he had been horribly tortured....... american intelligence says they had info he was beaten and tortured.......... medical examiner says he showed no signs of beatings, or torture

21 year old top of his class... best and brightest.... all american........ goes to cuba........ goes to NK....... unnacounted for by his group for a few hours........ only one person actually see's him get taken away....... only 1 picture of the guy when he returns on a stretcher..........

Keep believing those "sources" and everything being spoonfed to us...........

Still waiting for your source.

HesCalledDyer

bootlegger10 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Jesus Christ the lack of sympathy and empathy some of you have for a fellow human being’s life is seriously fucking disturbing.

 And your false outrage is pathetic.  You don’t see the big picture in this at all.  This dumbass wanting to go party in a dangerous place could have impacted millions of people.  What if a seal team would have been sent in to get him?  Instead of trying to get the other three US prisoners there the US was spending political capital trying to get Otto back because again, he wanted to tell his friends he spent New Years in North Korea.  You completely and utterly fail to see the big picture.  Decisions have ramifications.  We feel bad for the family still but also have brains.  His family must be filled with sadness, embarrassment and guilt.

Tell me, why did he go to North Korea?    You can’t answer that question truthfully without contradicting yourself.

Doesn’t mean he deserved to fucking die. No matter which way he died. False outrage? Fuck off. I’m pretty fucking disappointed in people here saying shit like “he was stupid and got what he deserved” or “he gambled and lost” or “decisions have ramifications.” It’s a fucking human life. He doesn’t deserve to die no matter what decisions, risks, etc. That’s all I’m saying. Show some fucking respect for a life.

oftenreading

I agree with Dyer. The guy was only 21. Every last one of us did reckless and ill-advised things when we were that age. Most of us were lucky enough to come out unscathed but that doesn’t mean we were smarter or deserved it more, we were just luckier. 

brianlux

oftenreading said:

I agree with Dyer. The guy was only 21. Every last one of us did reckless and ill-advised things when we were that age. Most of us were lucky enough to come out unscathed but that doesn’t mean we were smarter or deserved it more, we were just luckier. 

I agree too.  What the kid did was dumb (that can't be argued) but he didn't deserve to die.  If I died for every dumb thing I've done, I be dead several times over.  In fact, it's pretty fucking amazing I'm not dead.  But the things I did that cold have killed me?  Pretty fucking dumb!

bootlegger10

I never said he deserved to die.   He decided to enter a cage with a monster in it though, knowing the U.S. government said not to go there and that they cannot help you there.  There will be a special place in hell for the leaders of North Korea, but this guy entered a cage with a monster.  He created a national incident by his selfishness.  He used up political capital that could have helped other prisoners.  

This is not a stupid teenage decision.  Hundreds of millions of Americans each year do not get captured in North Korea.  When you are the 1 American out of 300M+ Americans that gets captured in North Korea, then you either made an incredibly dumb decision or you made a decision knowing the risks.   This guy (yes, a guy and not a kid), is no different than any other adventure seeker like a mountain climber who falls to their death.   It was a known outcome going in.  

bootlegger10

HesCalledDyer said:

bootlegger10 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

Jesus Christ the lack of sympathy and empathy some of you have for a fellow human being’s life is seriously fucking disturbing.

 And your false outrage is pathetic.  You don’t see the big picture in this at all.  This dumbass wanting to go party in a dangerous place could have impacted millions of people.  What if a seal team would have been sent in to get him?  Instead of trying to get the other three US prisoners there the US was spending political capital trying to get Otto back because again, he wanted to tell his friends he spent New Years in North Korea.  You completely and utterly fail to see the big picture.  Decisions have ramifications.  We feel bad for the family still but also have brains.  His family must be filled with sadness, embarrassment and guilt.

Tell me, why did he go to North Korea?    You can’t answer that question truthfully without contradicting yourself.

Doesn’t mean he deserved to fucking die. No matter which way he died. False outrage? Fuck off. I’m pretty fucking disappointed in people here saying shit like “he was stupid and got what he deserved” or “he gambled and lost” or “decisions have ramifications.” It’s a fucking human life. He doesn’t deserve to die no matter what decisions, risks, etc. That’s all I’m saying. Show some fucking respect for a life.

This is beyond ridiculous.  He didn’t die of cancer, of being hit by a drunk driver, or falling off a bike and hitting his head.  He died because he was sealing an adventure in a dangerous country and experienced why it was dangerous.  I don’t want my government spending any political capital or risking a military conflict over someone that does this.

oftenreading

As for the comments about "sources", of course you need to be cognizant of your sources. That includes not just their motivations but also their knowledge base, their competency as a source, so to speak. Mr. and Mrs. Warmbier sent off a healthy young son in the prime of his life and a year and a half later got back a severely brain damaged body within days of death. Of course they were shocked and horrified and unable to comprehend what was going on, as anyone would be. Many changes happen to a body over weeks and months after severe brain damage. We really don't know when the injury occurred, and I don't think we should necessarily take NK's word for that, but if the trach scar was fully healed it's likely it was at least several weeks and more likely several months. When the parents talk about his limbs being twisted or malformed, it's likely that there was decerebrate or decorticate posturing, a direct result of the lack of CNS and peripheral nerve activity. The article was vague on the results of the brain scans, so it's hard to tell, but if it's true that there was no sign of either bony damage, like a skull fracture, or localized brain damage from direct trauma or a bleed, then the most likely alternative for such widespread damage is anoxia (which of course doesn't necessarily mean that he caused it himself). As for the bit about his teeth being "rearranged", that just can't happen. Teeth can be cracked or broken, they can be knocked or pulled out, or very, very slowly over time with incremental pressure can be shifted somewhat (i.e. orthodontics), but if they are traumatically knocked or pulled out of their socket, they will die and fall out. I have a lot of sympathy for the Warmbiers, but regarding the medical facts I'll believe the medical professionals. 

Gern Blansten

dignin said:

Probably tried to hang himself. 

I wondered that too but I think there would have been body trauma related to that.  I guess I'm surprised that NK wouldn't have disclosed that if it were the case.

I cannot imagine the anguish that the parents must be feeling...probably a lot of "why didn't I refuse to let him go?" type stuff that would be drumming through my mind at every waking moment.

oftenreading

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

Probably tried to hang himself. 

I wondered that too but I think there would have been body trauma related to that.  I guess I'm surprised that NK wouldn't have disclosed that if it were the case.

I cannot imagine the anguish that the parents must be feeling...probably a lot of "why didn't I refuse to let him go?" type stuff that would be drumming through my mind at every waking moment.

Hanging generally causes soft tissue damage in the neck, which is quite obvious if it leads to death. However, since he survived, there was time for the soft tissue damage to heal. Hanging with a long drop generally causes spinal fracture, but if you don’t have the room to do that , it doesn’t. 

I agree sbout the parents’ likely feelings of guilt and regret. 

Gern Blansten

oftenreading said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

Probably tried to hang himself. 

I wondered that too but I think there would have been body trauma related to that.  I guess I'm surprised that NK wouldn't have disclosed that if it were the case.

I cannot imagine the anguish that the parents must be feeling...probably a lot of "why didn't I refuse to let him go?" type stuff that would be drumming through my mind at every waking moment.

Hanging generally causes soft tissue damage in the neck, which is quite obvious if it leads to death. However, since he survived, there was time for the soft tissue damage to heal. Hanging with a long drop generally causes spinal fracture, but if you don’t have the room to do that , it doesn’t. 

I agree sbout the parents’ likely feelings of guilt and regret. 

That's a good theory...after reading that article I tend to not agree with the torture theories...other than mental torture maybe

oftenreading

Gern Blansten said:

oftenreading said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

Probably tried to hang himself. 

I wondered that too but I think there would have been body trauma related to that.  I guess I'm surprised that NK wouldn't have disclosed that if it were the case.

I cannot imagine the anguish that the parents must be feeling...probably a lot of "why didn't I refuse to let him go?" type stuff that would be drumming through my mind at every waking moment.

Hanging generally causes soft tissue damage in the neck, which is quite obvious if it leads to death. However, since he survived, there was time for the soft tissue damage to heal. Hanging with a long drop generally causes spinal fracture, but if you don’t have the room to do that , it doesn’t. 

I agree sbout the parents’ likely feelings of guilt and regret. 

That's a good theory...after reading that article I tend to not agree with the torture theories...other than mental torture maybe

Mental torture I’m fairly certain about, given the report of former prisoners. 

Gern Blansten

oftenreading said:

Gern Blansten said:

oftenreading said:

Gern Blansten said:

dignin said:

Probably tried to hang himself. 

I wondered that too but I think there would have been body trauma related to that.  I guess I'm surprised that NK wouldn't have disclosed that if it were the case.

I cannot imagine the anguish that the parents must be feeling...probably a lot of "why didn't I refuse to let him go?" type stuff that would be drumming through my mind at every waking moment.

Hanging generally causes soft tissue damage in the neck, which is quite obvious if it leads to death. However, since he survived, there was time for the soft tissue damage to heal. Hanging with a long drop generally causes spinal fracture, but if you don’t have the room to do that , it doesn’t. 

I agree sbout the parents’ likely feelings of guilt and regret. 

That's a good theory...after reading that article I tend to not agree with the torture theories...other than mental torture maybe

Mental torture I’m fairly certain about, given the report of former prisoners. 

It's just so fucking sad....they likely would have released him as a good faith measure.  That would have been something that tRump did correctly.