** The Swedish Election - Sep 9 **

Spiritual_Chaos

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

You are way out of line... aaaahgain.

Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?

Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.

Come on, man.

Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).

Will re-read. Thank you.

Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.

Voter mentality.

What?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

You are way out of line... aaaahgain.

Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?

Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.

Come on, man.

Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).

Will re-read. Thank you.

Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.

Voter mentality.

What?

Re-read what she has already contributed. I'm not presenting her point in a different way.

Spiritual_Chaos

The latest, The Center Partys answer to The Social Democrats:

Social Democrats have contacted both The Liberals and The Center Party.

According to Annie Lööf (C) Anders Ygeman (S) has sent sms and suggested a coffee - but:

"I'm not going to let a coffee break with Anders Ygeman destroy our long-term goal of forming an alliance government," she says.

Spiritual_Chaos

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

You are way out of line... aaaahgain.

Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?

Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.

Come on, man.

Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).

Will re-read. Thank you.

Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.

Voter mentality.

What?

Re-read what she has already contributed. I'm not presenting her point in a different way.

I don't know what "voter mentality" has to do with if there are a source for "many" people moving from Sweden because of political reasons (or being harassed for being Jewish) and this "many" being numbers great enough to affect the election by mail votes. 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

You are way out of line... aaaahgain.

Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?

Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.

Come on, man.

Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).

Will re-read. Thank you.

Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.

Voter mentality.

What?

Re-read what she has already contributed. I'm not presenting her point in a different way.

I don't know what "voter mentality" has to do with if there are a source for "many" people moving from Sweden because of political reasons (or being harassed for being Jewish) and this "many" being numbers great enough to affect the election by mail votes. 

The growth of conservative values is what I got from her submissions.

Spiritual_Chaos

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

You are way out of line... aaaahgain.

Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?

Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.

Come on, man.

Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).

Will re-read. Thank you.

Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.

Voter mentality.

What?

Re-read what she has already contributed. I'm not presenting her point in a different way.

I don't know what "voter mentality" has to do with if there are a source for "many" people moving from Sweden because of political reasons (or being harassed for being Jewish) and this "many" being numbers great enough to affect the election by mail votes. 

The growth of conservative values is what I got from her submissions.

But I'm asking about - where the sources are that state that people have moved from Sweden because of the politics (or being harassed which was stated later). And that this would be numbers big enough to sway the election by their mail votes.

A general growth of conservative values (in or outside Sweden) has nothing to do with that.

oftenreading

Spiritual_Chaos said:

oftenreading said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

oftenreading said:

Annafalk said:

I honestly don't know but I found this diagram.

The data in this table surprised me enough to look up the source material. I read the Dencik & Marosi paper  link  http://archive.jpr.org.uk/download?id=2821  if anyone is interested) and skimmed the FRA paper. Interesting stuff and far more than I could include in a post. Overall takeaways seem to be that Sweden has a very low percentage of people with what they call "classic anti-semitism", which would generally be associated with right wing/Nazi ideals. However, there is a perception that what they call Israel-derived anti-semitism (i.e. anti-Israel sentiments) is higher, and concentrated in the Muslim population. Lots of discussion about how much of the fear is based on a realistic appraisal vs. otherwise. There is also an interesting bit about whether people who are anti-circumcision and/or against the principles of kosher slaughter practices should be considered anti-semitic, even if their concerns do not relate to religion but rather human or animal rights.

But I think, what we all can take away from Annafalks statistic is that is has nothing to do with the thread or the discussion in here. It is completely moot and pointless. But she still felt the need to post it.

Here is another diagram as valid, that we can discuss:

No, I disagree. The table posted is valid published data. Exactly what it means is definitely up for debate, though. Whether Swedish Jews are really more in danger from Muslims than from the right, the left, or other groups is also up for debate. Read the paper and see what you think. 

I can't comment on whether it is relevant to the election results, though. 

Exactly.

"... can't comment" because I don't have any more time right now to parse through the data, not because I think it's irrelevant to a discussion on Swedish voting choice.

Spiritual_Chaos

So, whats interesting here is that The Allience ( the four "rightwinged" parties) are talking about trying to form a government, while The Social Democrats (biggest party and right now the Government party together with The Green Party) are also talking about forming a government. In parallel:

Center leader Annie Lööf has also commented on contacts from government. She says to Aftonbladet:

"I have not had any conversations with the Social Democrats. Their trick now is to invite different parties to show a picture of splitting the Alliance. It's an ugly trick.

On the question of whether she could imagine sitting in a Löfven (the prime minster)-led government, she answers:

"I promise my constituents to replace Stefan Löfven.

To SVT, Lööf has said that S has contacted her party by sms from Anders Ygeman to Anders W Jonsson, Center Party's group leader. But S got got stood up, C does not want any meeting in this time.

Spiritual_Chaos

And, what should be said is that they get three (or maybe four...) chances to form a government that will pass through the parliament - or there will be a re-election.

The latest re-election in Sweden was in 1958.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

You are way out of line... aaaahgain.

Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?

Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.

Come on, man.

Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).

Will re-read. Thank you.

Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.

Voter mentality.

What?

Re-read what she has already contributed. I'm not presenting her point in a different way.

I don't know what "voter mentality" has to do with if there are a source for "many" people moving from Sweden because of political reasons (or being harassed for being Jewish) and this "many" being numbers great enough to affect the election by mail votes. 

The growth of conservative values is what I got from her submissions.

But I'm asking about - where the sources are that state that people have moved from Sweden because of the politics (or being harassed which was stated later). And that this would be numbers big enough to sway the election by their mail votes.

A general growth of conservative values (in or outside Sweden) has nothing to do with that.

I hadn't realized the discussion had boiled down to such a finite level. I thought that in a thread such as this... the development of voters' mentalities would be completely relevant (and what implications this growth might have for this election and even more importantly... future elections). Anna's contribution was helpful to me trying to understand Sweden and its current social landscape.

Let's come back to my original post though: I'm not professing to be an expert on Sweden. I'm professing to have come across bad manners. I appreciate your willingness and eagerness to share what's going on in your country right now, but I can't say I appreciated your lack of respect for Anna in the last exchanges.

Spiritual_Chaos

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

You are way out of line... aaaahgain.

Refute Anna's post all you want, but how about refraining from attacking her on such personal levels?

Wait, how? In that case I am sorry, ofcourse.

Come on, man.

Go back and read your discourse with her. It's fine to be passionate, but I just wish you would recognize when you become too aggressive. What she presented was legitimate in this context and you brushed it aside without considering its relevancy... and then proceeded to belittle her in a number of ways to the point she chose to exit the discussion (and you still chased her tossing insults).

Will re-read. Thank you.

Remind me, what was legitimate in this context though? if you have it fresh in memory.

Voter mentality.

What?

Re-read what she has already contributed. I'm not presenting her point in a different way.

I don't know what "voter mentality" has to do with if there are a source for "many" people moving from Sweden because of political reasons (or being harassed for being Jewish) and this "many" being numbers great enough to affect the election by mail votes. 

The growth of conservative values is what I got from her submissions.

But I'm asking about - where the sources are that state that people have moved from Sweden because of the politics (or being harassed which was stated later). And that this would be numbers big enough to sway the election by their mail votes.

A general growth of conservative values (in or outside Sweden) has nothing to do with that.

I hadn't realized the discussion had boiled down to such a finite level. I thought that in a thread such as this... the development of voters' mentalities would be completely relevant (and what implications this growth might have for this election and even more importantly... future elections). Anna's contribution was helpful to me trying to understand Sweden and its current social landscape.

Let's come back to my original post though: I'm not professing to be an expert on Sweden. I'm professing to have come across bad manners. I appreciate your willingness and eagerness to share what's going on in your country right now, but I can't say I appreciated your lack of respect for Anna in the last exchanges.

When discussing one thing, you discuss that thing. I discussed that thing and asked for answers to this thing. Things being irreverent to that thing being posted is irrelevant to the the discussing about that thing. Even if you get something out of that irrelevant thing. Maybe you should re-read the conversation too?

But I see what you're saying is (and I will in the future try to live up to that, if I failed ITT):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRp0zkGYAZc

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Spiritual...

Thanks for figuring out what I was getting at. And don't be too rough on yourself- I've needed these reminders myself. All is good.

Spiritual_Chaos

Three factors being undecided after the election: The late foreign voices, Sunday's voices from premature seats and votes wrongly void.

Wednesday's late votes is expected to be more in this year's election and the votes rejected in the preliminary vote are record high this year.

More than 20,000 previous invalid votes are expected to be approved at the latest on Friday - and can determine the balance of power in the Parlaiment.

Spiritual_Chaos

Regarding the different parties -- right-winged party The Moderates don't seem to have that much problems working with racist pals in The Swedish Democrates. Before The Swedish Democrates even was a factor in Swedish politics, there was a big story before an election (2006 I think) here in Sweden about the xenophobia existing within The Moderates. On a national level they has said they will not seek support from SD though:

SD and the Moderates in Malmö City are very close. After a brief meeting with the moderate man, Torbjörn Tegnhammar, SD's leading Malmö politician has this review:

"I think Torbjörn is a sensible young man. There are many questions that we share the same opinion about. Security issues and making Malmö safer, just to mention some where we have approximate consensus, says Magnus Olsson, (SD).

Spiritual_Chaos

In a post on Facebook, Ulf Kristersson (The Moderates leader) today presented a chart and a few calculations. He claims that the Alliance's government options are the strongest.

 "At the time of writing, it appears that the two government parties plus the Left Party are slightly bigger than the Alliance. That does not mean that they have a stronger government alternative, as it has so far been clear that Social Democrats do not intend to reign with the Left Party, "he writes.

In the published chart, the Left Party has also got its own bar and is not included in the red-green government alternative. He also writes that one must now wait for the final election result.

Spiritual_Chaos

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Spiritual...

Thanks for figuring out what I was getting at. And don't be too rough on yourself- I've needed these reminders myself. All is good.

No problem,

Are you hoping for The Alliance or a Red-Green option?



haha.

Spiritual_Chaos

Aftonbladet political analyst:

Creating a new Alliance government is condemned to fail - unless the conditions change radically.

Stefan Löfven will first be voted away as prime minister. And then most likely be voted back.

Spiritual_Chaos

Annafalk said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Annafalk said:

I honestly don't know but I found this diagram.

What relevance does this have to people moving/living abroad?

Would like to know what "many" constitutes, with you stating that "many" has moved away from sweden and you are also stating that these jews and other Swedes moving abroad would be voting blue? Show me numbers on this, Aftonbladet states that if the voting abroad is similiar to in 2014 it will not affect the results.

Seems like you just blurt out (biased) things without any real knowledge of or information on the matter?

In that case, it seems both unnecessary and very much something from the far-right/Trump playbook -- "people are saying..."

We will just have to wait and see, I could be wrong and you could be right.

https://twitter.com/chucktodd/status/1038777849782706177

Happend upon this on another forum:

Garry Kasparov, the Russian dissident living in exile and Chess Grand Champion (As well as democracy advocate, human rights advocate, etc), has described in his books and interviews how despots and tyrants operate not by necessarily promoting their version of the truth, but more so by promoting that there is no truth. This is a point that Kasparov routinely argues about Putin and the Kremlin, that they're not interested in telling you what's true and what's false, they're interested in making you believe that "nobody really knows what's true and what's false... Some say this, some say that, who really knows?"

When stating things as facts (as in, X and Y will happen because many people are moving from Sweden because of the politics of our last government) I think it would be better if it could be backed up - in some way. - Instead of falling back on basically "What I stated could somehow be true... therefore it can be stated as being true" (as Kelly-Anne and the Kremlin does). 

Just comes off as heavily biased and based on nothing, instead of the reality which should be the aim when stating things as facts.

Back on track --

-- Today the votes from abroad and other late votes should come in, I think they're expecting 200k votes. And votes from abroad usually have a blue (right-winged) slant. So seats in Parliment can shift today.

From Aftonbladet:

The Alliance will try to remove Stefan Löfven from his post as Prime minister on September 24,  party leaders announced at DN Debatt (big newspaper in Sweden).

At the same time, they invite The Social Democrats (Löfvens party) to talks - and establishes that collaboration with The Swedish Democrats is still excluded.

"We want to build an Alliance government on cross-border cooperation," writes the Alliance leaders.

Spiritual_Chaos

Political analyst KG Bergström:

According to K-G, it would be "a big sensation" if the Social Democrats were to join the Alliance's collaborative invite - but: "On the other hand, the Alliance has been a little smart and said it wants a deal on individual issues. And given that the Alliance during the Social Democratic regime last mandate accepted 26 such agreements, as Stefan Löfven has bragged about, he would find it difficult, by definition, to just say no to negotiate individual issues in the Parliament. That would be the most challenging one.

Spiritual_Chaos

Aftonbladet has spoken with sources in the Social Democrats about how they react to the Alliance's invitation. Several emphasize that Stefan Löfven has repeatedly stretched out a hand over the aisle, but also reminds of his words in connection with a debate, to support an alliance government that is smaller than the red-green. "Not a chance," he replied to straight question by Annie Lööf (C).

The fact that the Alliance's invitation comes today interprets a Social Democratic source as proof that the right-winged party leaders are pressured. In the afternoon the voting is expected to be finshed and a final election result can be determined. "It shows that they are stressed," says an S-source. "They want to hurry and hold a press conference before voting is finished because they believe they lose the backing of their voters thereafter, if they are still smaller than us.

 Social Democrats are expected to comment on the Alliance's message after the press conference.