We must have a better system to deal with 10c ticket exchanges / refunds

F Me In The Brain

dankind said:

F Me In The Brain said:

lolobugg said:

positive thoughts to everyone going thru some tough times.

but this policy is really the only way to do it. Too many people would abuse the exchange system.

This.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

It is sad that some cannot make it but the way the general person behaves necessitates such a system

My man, since when do you invoke logic?

I try to use is sparingly

jdopj

dimitrispearljam said:

The system is  just fine as it is
We all know what will happen if 10c allows transfers or sales. We have enough flippers and cheaters at merch. We don't need the same crap with 10c tix

Bingo
it was rampant that low number people would put in for a lot of shows and transfer to friends or family with high numbers 
as with everything in our world the greed of some ruins it for everyone 

jeffbr

I got fucked by this rule. I also understand why it exists. 10c members are the absolute worst when it comes to gaming the system. They'll/we'll take advantage of whatever loophole exists. So I know why the rules exists, even if I'm bitter about having been a "victim" of them. Missed the 2013 Seattle show because of emergency surgery. Up until the day before the show, I thought I was going. Tried to get 10c to give my tickets to a long-time 10c member, but to no avail. They of course offered to give them away for me. I opted for my seats to be left empty in protest - didn't have the energy to go back and forth. There are certainly better ways to do this, but 10c is a bare-bones, technically challenged operation, and it simply won't happen. It is what it is. My rule now is that I don't buy 10c tickets unless it is the only option. With TM I know where my seats are going to be when I buy them, and I have full control over their disposition. 10c seats can be a mystery (and with a 4'10" wife, I don't want to find myself seated 20 rows back on the floor). 10c transfers are limited and painful. 10c pricing is weird when you pay the same price for something close vs something farther back (which is happening with the US stadium tour). There are plenty of reasons for me to never buy 10c tix again. And it is a relief not to have to even worry about it anymore. 

PJ_Soul

F Me In The Brain said:

lolobugg said:

positive thoughts to everyone going thru some tough times.

but this policy is really the only way to do it. Too many people would abuse the exchange system.

This.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

It is sad that some cannot make it but the way the general person behaves necessitates such a system

Well, I do usually agree with that logic when it comes to laws related to public safety and human rights and stuff like that, lol, but when it comes to just 10C tix, I feel like it's not altogether necessary. Making exceptions at least for verifiable cases doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all - it would be doable if only they decided to do it. Or maybe they could give us all a bailout deadline date, say a month before the shows, that allowed people who can't go to get straight up refunds, and then 10C could have a "second chance" lottery for only members who didn't get tix the first go 'round (either because they lost or didn't enter), and after that everyone's locked in. Something like that. I think that would be awesome. Some would argue that 10C might be worried about not selling them all... but come on. That just doesn't seem realistic at this point, given how few shows they do. And I can't think of how something like that would leave any room for abuse.

on2legs

bertan said:

on2legs said:

That was a long post, but if I’m understanding correctly you purchased tickets that you knew where nonrefundable and had limited transfers and then you scheduled your wedding for the same week in another country?

Not really. PJ_Soul pretty much explained it but let me make it clear: I bought the tickets when there were no solid plans for a wedding. When I popped the question, I had a date in mind which would allow us to attend the gigs as well. But for various reasons beyond my control, that date wasn't possible and basically the only date available to me was the one on the same week of the gigs.

Maybe you still feel that isn't a good enough reason, but I'm not the only one dealing with this problem. Surely you can empathize with health problems and family emergencies. Ten Club gives the same answer to all those people: "No refunds, no name transfers, no exchanges, no exceptions". Isn't that a failure by Ten Club?

I'm not making any judgement on your reason (congrats on the wedding by the way).  But when they make the rules well known from the start, you have to know there is the possibility that a million different things could happen to derail your plans and you may be stuck with the tickets.  That's why I suggested the general sale tickets so you have the luxury of selling if needed.

I'll reaffirm my happiness with the current system... too many people would game the system and would put in for tickets they have no intention of using if they made the tickets too easy to transfer.

PJNB

Having to have a system that would investigate each individual case and it is valid would be such a massive headache for 10 club I would imagine. People that abuse the system are the ones ruining it for the rest of us and because so I think the correct rules are in place. 

lastexitlondon

It's the fuckin people that ruin it. These poor people fighting cancer and there are asshats that will lie and cheat that call themselves fans. I won't  comment any further . But  I will say what kind of fan is defrauding another fan. Not my kind of people I'm afraid . Rob out.

PJ_Soul

PJNB said:

Having to have a system that would investigate each individual case and it is valid would be such a massive headache for 10 club I would imagine. People that abuse the system are the ones ruining it for the rest of us and because so I think the correct rules are in place. 

I don't think so, and I say this as someone who used to basically do the exact same work but for students who wanted to reschedule their university exams and had to follow strict policies and restrictions in order to legitimately do so. Once you have a system figured out, most of the work is actually done by the student (or 10C member), not by the staff. As long as the policies and requirements are very clearly laid out for the students (members), it's really not a headache. And trust me, as crazy as PJ fans can be about tickets, it's nothing compared to what some students are willing to do to get out of a final exam, lol.
But in any case, like I said, it would be even easier to just have a refund request deadline and then do a secondary lottery for those members who don't already hold tickets.

dimitrispearljam

jdopj said:

dimitrispearljam said:

The system is  just fine as it is
We all know what will happen if 10c allows transfers or sales. We have enough flippers and cheaters at merch. We don't need the same crap with 10c tix

Bingo
it was rampant that low number people would put in for a lot of shows and transfer to friends or family with high numbers 
as with everything in our world the greed of some ruins it for everyone 

Exactly

PJNB

PJ_Soul said:

PJNB said:

Having to have a system that would investigate each individual case and it is valid would be such a massive headache for 10 club I would imagine. People that abuse the system are the ones ruining it for the rest of us and because so I think the correct rules are in place. 

I don't think so, and I say this as someone who used to basically do the exact same work but for students who wanted to reschedule their university exams and had to follow strict policies and restrictions in order to legitimately do so. Once you have a system figured out, most of the work is actually done by the student (or 10C member), not by the staff. As long as the policies and requirements are very clearly laid out for the students (members), it's really not a headache. And trust me, as crazy as PJ fans can be about tickets, it's nothing compared to what some students are willing to do to get out of a final exam, lol.
But in any case, like I said, it would be even easier to just have a refund request deadline and then do a secondary lottery for those members who don't already hold tickets.

I see what you are saying but how many students do you have? There are 11 shows in Europe this year. Lets say there are 4000 tickets to each show. That is 22000 ticket wins just for Europe alone. With only 7 shows in the states I would say  there are even more then that for the home and away shows. Probably total there would be over 50,000 ticket wins this year alone not including SA. That is a very large number and to have to deal with people on a case by case basis takes time and resources as you know. I think the way it is it is almost impossible to abuse or manipulate the system and while unfair to a small handful of people (not talking about those that do not read the clearly marked rules) I think this method keeps it fair and honest for the most of us who actually read the rules and are fortunate to win tickets and go to the shows we put it in for. If people knew they could put in for all the shows and get a full refund for those that they could no longer make they would put in for every show hurting everyone else's chance even with a second draw option 

Lost In Ohio

chime said:

At this time US shows were all seated, no lottery so totally seniority based.

Did I just read this?

I really hope I'm misinterpreting this.

Lost In Ohio

I honestly think part of it is to help guarantee tickets for local fans.

If someone is traveling 3000 miles for the show, they're really going to do their hotel/travel/work plans before they put in for tickets.

If it's a two-hour drive, it's a different story.

The hard stance on refunds/exchanges makes more tickets available for nearby fans.

Horse2345

Lost In Ohio said:

chime said:

At this time US shows were all seated, no lottery so totally seniority based.

Did I just read this?

I really hope I'm misinterpreting this.

You are, "at this time" was referring to that time in the past when there was no ga. Now there is ga

PJ_Soul

PJNB said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJNB said:

Having to have a system that would investigate each individual case and it is valid would be such a massive headache for 10 club I would imagine. People that abuse the system are the ones ruining it for the rest of us and because so I think the correct rules are in place. 

I don't think so, and I say this as someone who used to basically do the exact same work but for students who wanted to reschedule their university exams and had to follow strict policies and restrictions in order to legitimately do so. Once you have a system figured out, most of the work is actually done by the student (or 10C member), not by the staff. As long as the policies and requirements are very clearly laid out for the students (members), it's really not a headache. And trust me, as crazy as PJ fans can be about tickets, it's nothing compared to what some students are willing to do to get out of a final exam, lol.
But in any case, like I said, it would be even easier to just have a refund request deadline and then do a secondary lottery for those members who don't already hold tickets.

I see what you are saying but how many students do you have? There are 11 shows in Europe this year. Lets say there are 4000 tickets to each show. That is 22000 ticket wins just for Europe alone. With only 7 shows in the states I would say  there are even more then that for the home and away shows. Probably total there would be over 50,000 ticket wins this year alone not including SA. That is a very large number and to have to deal with people on a case by case basis takes time and resources as you know. I think the way it is it is almost impossible to abuse or manipulate the system and while unfair to a small handful of people (not talking about those that do not read the clearly marked rules) I think this method keeps it fair and honest for the most of us who actually read the rules and are fortunate to win tickets and go to the shows we put it in for. If people knew they could put in for all the shows and get a full refund for those that they could no longer make they would put in for every show hurting everyone else's chance even with a second draw option 

Well, we have over 30,000 students at any given time. Obviously a very small number of them would have some verifiable issue that would cause them to make a request, and that would be the same with 10C members wanting to not go to the shows. It's not like the 10C would have to deal with this for every fan. It would be a tiny minority of 10C ticket holders. That's why it would be manageable. MOST 10C fans can't wait to get to the show, and will only cancel their plans to attend if circumstances are really fucked up! It really wouldn't be that big a deal IMO. People not being able to go to the shows because of extenuating circumstances (based on clearly defined limitations) would be a rare occurrence. I dunno. I'm not frothing at the mouth over this issue or anything (I'm just having a nice conversation about this in case anyone thinks I'm "freaking out" ) - I just think that there should be some kind of alternative for people who, say, get sick, lose a loved one, etc etc, because people deserve a break. It seems like the most decent thing to do. Saying "sorry, you're out of luck, you lose your money!" to someone who just found out they have brain cancer or to someone who just lost their mom or kid or wife, or whatever other bad thing that happens to people to keep them from attending a show they put in for, just seems wrong to me.

kce8

How does 10Club handle the second ticket I've already promised to a foreigner?
As far as I know, this person is f..ked if I (the member) can not make it to the venue.
For example, if I get sick and can not drive to the venue for 5 hours, there should be a way to let 10Club know so they can give that person the second ticket. I mean, that person may has traveled the great ocean for this show and already arrived there.
That's absolutely unfair. I can take my own risk but this is not acceptable and I would feel horrible to do that to a fan.

PJ_Soul

kce8 said:

How does 10Club handle the second ticket I've already promised to a foreigner?
As far as I know, this person is f..ked if I (the member) can not make it to the venue.
For example, if I get sick and can not drive to the venue for 5 hours, there should be a way to let 10Club know so they can give that person the second ticket. I mean, that person may has traveled the great ocean for this show and already arrived there.
That's absolutely unfair. I can take my own risk but this is not acceptable and I would feel horrible to do that to a fan.

Are you talking about paper tix? I know for the US shows the 1 transferable ticket is transferred electronically, so this isn't an issue. I did not realize that they had a 1 ticket only transfer option in Europe with paper tickets. If that is the case, then I guess they don't expect anyone who can't make the show to transfer a ticket, and the option is only for those who need a ticket buddy.

Vedd Hedd

I like that its this hard to transfer tickets.  It keeps scalping to a minimum, and even then, if it DOES happen, its probably not too easy. 

That said, it would be cool if we could send a message to the 10C just to note that we cant make it.   Lets say I won the lottery and got 1st row, but didnt know I would hate for my 1st row tickets to sit there and not be used.  Im good with eating the cost of the tickets.  That keeps people from just buying a ton of shows knowing they could transfer them later. 

The logistics of a sharing site would be brutal.  And if we had a full on "Sell your 10C tickets here", then I feel there would be side-deals, and more people who dont plan on going to the shows would buy tickets. 

kce8

No sorry, you (member) have to pick the envelope up at the venue and then you can give the wrist band to another person. 
That means if you can't pick it up you can't give it to the other person. 

PJ_Soul

Vedd Hedd said:

I like that its this hard to transfer tickets.  It keeps scalping to a minimum, and even then, if it DOES happen, its probably not too easy. 

That said, it would be cool if we could send a message to the 10C just to note that we cant make it.   Lets say I won the lottery and got 1st row, but didnt know I would hate for my 1st row tickets to sit there and not be used.  Im good with eating the cost of the tickets.  That keeps people from just buying a ton of shows knowing they could transfer them later. 

The logistics of a sharing site would be brutal.  And if we had a full on "Sell your 10C tickets here", then I feel there would be side-deals, and more people who dont plan on going to the shows would buy tickets. 

You actually can send 10C a message and make sure your tix don't go to waste. That is in fact the only option we have, which is better than no option, because yeah, there is nothing worse than empty seats!

PJ_Soul

kce8 said:

No sorry, you (member) have to pick the envelope up at the venue and then you can give the wrist band to another person. 
That means if you can't pick it up you can't give it to the other person. 

Oh, right - the same as in North America until this summer. If you can't get there you're hooped.... That's the whole problem, lol.

kce8

PJ_Soul said:

kce8 said:

No sorry, you (member) have to pick the envelope up at the venue and then you can give the wrist band to another person. 
That means if you can't pick it up you can't give it to the other person. 

Oh, right - the same as in North America until this summer. If you can't get there you're hooped.... That's the whole problem, lol.

Exactly, and also the poor other person.
They should fix that problem.

Vedd Hedd

PJ_Soul said:

You actually can send 10C a message and make sure your tix don't go to waste. That is in fact the only option we have, which is better than no option, because yeah, there is nothing worse than empty seats!

Ah, good to know.   I never looked into it...cause...who the fuck misses a show???

I actually did one time, i had the flu.  Day 2 of PJ20.  

JM12271

PJ_Soul said:

Vedd Hedd said:

I like that its this hard to transfer tickets.  It keeps scalping to a minimum, and even then, if it DOES happen, its probably not too easy. 

That said, it would be cool if we could send a message to the 10C just to note that we cant make it.   Lets say I won the lottery and got 1st row, but didnt know I would hate for my 1st row tickets to sit there and not be used.  Im good with eating the cost of the tickets.  That keeps people from just buying a ton of shows knowing they could transfer them later. 

The logistics of a sharing site would be brutal.  And if we had a full on "Sell your 10C tickets here", then I feel there would be side-deals, and more people who dont plan on going to the shows would buy tickets. 

You actually can send 10C a message and make sure your tix don't go to waste. That is in fact the only option we have, which is better than no option, because yeah, there is nothing worse than empty seats!

How can I send 10C a message - I would like to do that. Thanks.

PJ_Soul

JM12271 said:

PJ_Soul said:

Vedd Hedd said:

I like that its this hard to transfer tickets.  It keeps scalping to a minimum, and even then, if it DOES happen, its probably not too easy. 

That said, it would be cool if we could send a message to the 10C just to note that we cant make it.   Lets say I won the lottery and got 1st row, but didnt know I would hate for my 1st row tickets to sit there and not be used.  Im good with eating the cost of the tickets.  That keeps people from just buying a ton of shows knowing they could transfer them later. 

The logistics of a sharing site would be brutal.  And if we had a full on "Sell your 10C tickets here", then I feel there would be side-deals, and more people who dont plan on going to the shows would buy tickets. 

You actually can send 10C a message and make sure your tix don't go to waste. That is in fact the only option we have, which is better than no option, because yeah, there is nothing worse than empty seats!

How can I send 10C a message - I would like to do that. Thanks.

Here is their online contact form: https://help.pearljam.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

Or you can email them at info@tenclub.net 

bertan

chime said:

EDIT:  *waves* hi Bertan.  Congrats on the upcoming wedding.

Thank you Chime!

PJ_Soul said:

Or maybe they could give us all a bailout deadline date, say a month before the shows, that allowed people who can't go to get straight up refunds, and then 10C could have a "second chance" lottery for only members who didn't get tix the first go 'round (either because they lost or didn't enter), and after that everyone's locked in. Something like that. I think that would be awesome. Some would argue that 10C might be worried about not selling them all... but come on. That just doesn't seem realistic at this point, given how few shows they do. And I can't think of how something like that would leave any room for abuse. 

I think that's a perfectly fine option. It won't help with last minute problems, but at least it would help some of the people like me, who figured out that they won't be able to make it. It's not ideal, but it's better than doing nothing.

on2legs said:

I'm not making any judgement on your reason (congrats on the wedding by the way).  But when they make the rules well known from the start, you have to know there is the possibility that a million different things could happen to derail your plans and you may be stuck with the tickets.  That's why I suggested the general sale tickets so you have the luxury of selling if needed.

I'll reaffirm my happiness with the current system... too many people would game the system and would put in for tickets they have no intention of using if they made the tickets too easy to transfer.

First of all, thank you I am a digital ten club member and really the only perk I care about is the ten club tickets. I don't really care about the holiday single, so giving up on those tickets would really make my membership useless Also, I attended 4 PJ gigs before this, all were 10C tickets, so I had no reason to believe that I would have a problem attending this one as well.

bertan

I understand the concerns with members exploiting the system, but I still haven't heard anything against the waiting list solution. Wouldn't that prevent exploits since you pass your ticket to the 10C, and 10C e-mails the next person in line waiting for a ticket. You don't know who that is, you can't have any financial gain from it. And if there's no one waiting (which would be rare), than yeah, you would still have to pay for the tickets.

Another solution would be putting a limit on ticket exchanges/refunds, for example every member would be able to opt out of only one pair of tickets for every tour.  Like I got 2 pairs of tickets for this tour, I would only be able to return one pair. Which is still not great but I would call it fair. And again, much more considerate than our current system.

lolobugg

bertan said:

I understand the concerns with members exploiting the system, but I still haven't heard anything against the waiting list solution. Wouldn't that prevent exploits since you pass your ticket to the 10C, and 10C e-mails the next person in line waiting for a ticket. You don't know who that is, you can't have any financial gain from it. And if there's no one waiting (which would be rare), than yeah, you would still have to pay for the tickets.

Another solution would be putting a limit on ticket exchanges/refunds, for example every member would be able to opt out of only one pair of tickets for every tour.  Like I got 2 pairs of tickets for this tour, I would only be able to return one pair. Which is still not great but I would call it fair. And again, much more considerate than our current system.

dude. i think you just need to re-schedule the wedding. 

you can get married anytime. you can't see PJ just any time.

i am a huge college football fan and in the South we literally schedule shit like baby showers/weddings etc. around the big games.  sad but true.

bertan

lolobugg said:

bertan said:

I understand the concerns with members exploiting the system, but I still haven't heard anything against the waiting list solution. Wouldn't that prevent exploits since you pass your ticket to the 10C, and 10C e-mails the next person in line waiting for a ticket. You don't know who that is, you can't have any financial gain from it. And if there's no one waiting (which would be rare), than yeah, you would still have to pay for the tickets.

Another solution would be putting a limit on ticket exchanges/refunds, for example every member would be able to opt out of only one pair of tickets for every tour.  Like I got 2 pairs of tickets for this tour, I would only be able to return one pair. Which is still not great but I would call it fair. And again, much more considerate than our current system.

dude. i think you just need to re-schedule the wedding. 

you can get married anytime. you can't see PJ just any time.

i am a huge college football fan and in the South we literally schedule shit like baby showers/weddings etc. around the big games.  sad but true.

LOL I know... And the worse thing is Alice in Chains and Foo Fighters are playing in London on the same week. It was gonna be an amazing week, I was trying to score tickets to those as well when I realized there's no other week available for the wedding.

PJ_Soul

bertan said:

I understand the concerns with members exploiting the system, but I still haven't heard anything against the waiting list solution. Wouldn't that prevent exploits since you pass your ticket to the 10C, and 10C e-mails the next person in line waiting for a ticket. You don't know who that is, you can't have any financial gain from it. And if there's no one waiting (which would be rare), than yeah, you would still have to pay for the tickets.

Another solution would be putting a limit on ticket exchanges/refunds, for example every member would be able to opt out of only one pair of tickets for every tour.  Like I got 2 pairs of tickets for this tour, I would only be able to return one pair. Which is still not great but I would call it fair. And again, much more considerate than our current system.

I agree with you, but FWIW, the concern people have with these kinds of options is that members will just enter for tickets willy nilly, whether they really plan to go or not, just to leave the option open for themselves, just in case. That would lead to fewer fans who really do plan to go to the shows with fewer chances to get the tix they want in the lottery. My own solution to that problem is to limit people to a certain number of shows in the first lottery, and then they can just get on the waitlists after they reach their limit.... I know that idea would anger some of the die hards who want to be able to enter for every single show, but hey, whatcha gonna do? These are all just personal opinions!

lolobugg

bertan said:

lolobugg said:

bertan said:

I understand the concerns with members exploiting the system, but I still haven't heard anything against the waiting list solution. Wouldn't that prevent exploits since you pass your ticket to the 10C, and 10C e-mails the next person in line waiting for a ticket. You don't know who that is, you can't have any financial gain from it. And if there's no one waiting (which would be rare), than yeah, you would still have to pay for the tickets.

Another solution would be putting a limit on ticket exchanges/refunds, for example every member would be able to opt out of only one pair of tickets for every tour.  Like I got 2 pairs of tickets for this tour, I would only be able to return one pair. Which is still not great but I would call it fair. And again, much more considerate than our current system.

dude. i think you just need to re-schedule the wedding. 

you can get married anytime. you can't see PJ just any time.

i am a huge college football fan and in the South we literally schedule shit like baby showers/weddings etc. around the big games.  sad but true.

LOL I know... And the worse thing is Alice in Chains and Foo Fighters are playing in London on the same week. It was gonna be an amazing week, I was trying to score tickets to those as well when I realized there's no other week available for the wedding.

Well, you can always hold this over the wife..... i loved you so much that i missed PJ for you.

now we have to go see them in...............