Diversity

Go Beavers

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

The same dynamic that results in burkas also exists in Western societies. 

No it doesn't. I think I know what you're trying to say, and I do, I kind of agree if I'm right, but the "same dynamic" definitely doesn't exist in Western societies - saying that minimizes just how fucked up and awful it is for women in those Sharia communities.

By dynamic I mean how a society creates rules for women around dress and interactions with men. We all have to learn how to navigate our normal feelings of sexual attraction vs maintaining appropriate and reapectful behavior. There’s a continuum of placing rules on the other person at the one end, and complete internal self control at the other. Western soceity has all the double standards (“she shouldn’t act that way, dress that way, talk that way” etc) as well as women being the target of sexual harassment and violence. We may have different dress codes, but the underlying belief structure around women’s roles and responsibility remains. 

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

Hajibs don't bother me in the slightest. Burkas, if the face is exposed don't bother me. Niqab on the other hand have no place in public in the west. If you want to keep your face covered, do it in private in your home. If you walk onto a plane, into a bank, into a government building and have your identity completely masked, then I'm automatically suspicious of your motives. You shouldn't get a government issued ID card without your full face being pictured. You shouldn't be let through security checks unless your face can be compared with your state ID showing your full face. I can't get a passport photo wearing a hat, or sunglasses, or even my prescription glasses. I have to take my glasses off to be photographed. Keeping your identity concealed due to mystical or mythological reasons isn't acceptable when there are security issues that the rest of society must comply with.

I don't like hijabs either, because they are also a negative symbol connected to male domination and control... But ONLY a symbol, so not so bad. I certainly am not against them per se - they do not work to exclude women from society (and they are very pretty, lol). It's only burkas that really bother me a lot - the face covering is pretty much the entire problem (although hiding the rest of the body sits very badly with me too... especially when it's hot out!). And yes, of course, it shouldn't be legal for people in burkas to go through airport security without them having to remove the face covering and be checked more rigorously under their giant sack.... Is that not the case?? People with their faces covered can't get through airport security or across borders, can they??

this was an issue not long ago. It was a woman who was being sworn in as a canadian citizen while wearing a niqab. she won. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/zunera-ishaq-niqab-ban-citizenship-oath-1.3257762

interesting how she says her family, including her father and her husband, were against her wearing it, in general, not just at the ceremony. 

PJ_Soul

Go Beavers said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

The same dynamic that results in burkas also exists in Western societies. 

No it doesn't. I think I know what you're trying to say, and I do, I kind of agree if I'm right, but the "same dynamic" definitely doesn't exist in Western societies - saying that minimizes just how fucked up and awful it is for women in those Sharia communities.

By dynamic I mean how a society creates rules for women around dress and interactions with men. We all have to learn how to navigate our normal feelings of sexual attraction vs maintaining appropriate and reapectful behavior. There’s a continuum of placing rules on the other person at the one end, and complete internal self control at the other. Western soceity has all the double standards (“she shouldn’t act that way, dress that way, talk that way” etc) as well as women being the target of sexual harassment and violence. We may have different dress codes, but the underlying belief structure around women’s roles and responsibility remains. 

Well not really. In western society women can and do defy whatever social norms and expectations are out there, and men are held responsible more and more when they can't deal with it. So yes, the things you mention are true - I just don't find them comparable to what Muslim women under Sharia law have to deal with at all. When they defy this expectations they get beaten or have acid thrown in their faces or get stoned. To me, that does not indicate a matching underlying belief structure, because the main belief structure that includes the requirement of burkas is that women don't have a right to freedom and choice, and men aren't generally bound by law not to harm the women when they go against those expectations.
Don't get me wrong - I'm fully aware of and against the double standards the women are subjected to in Western society, and whatever belief structures that some people have to help perpetuate them. To say the least. Those things are of great interest and concern to me as a woman in western society (and it kind of pisses me off that western women aren't helping more to stop those things) .... but it's still just not the same at all IMO.

Go Beavers

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

PJ_Soul said:

Go Beavers said:

The same dynamic that results in burkas also exists in Western societies. 

No it doesn't. I think I know what you're trying to say, and I do, I kind of agree if I'm right, but the "same dynamic" definitely doesn't exist in Western societies - saying that minimizes just how fucked up and awful it is for women in those Sharia communities.

By dynamic I mean how a society creates rules for women around dress and interactions with men. We all have to learn how to navigate our normal feelings of sexual attraction vs maintaining appropriate and reapectful behavior. There’s a continuum of placing rules on the other person at the one end, and complete internal self control at the other. Western soceity has all the double standards (“she shouldn’t act that way, dress that way, talk that way” etc) as well as women being the target of sexual harassment and violence. We may have different dress codes, but the underlying belief structure around women’s roles and responsibility remains. 

Well not really. In western society women can and do defy whatever social norms and expectations are out there, and men are held responsible more and more when they can't deal with it. So yes, the things you mention are true - I just don't find them comparable to what Muslim women under Sharia law have to deal with at all. When they defy this expectations they get beaten or have acid thrown in their faces or get stoned. To me, that does not indicate a matching underlying belief structure, because the main belief structure that includes the requirement of burkas is that women don't have a right to freedom and choice, and men aren't generally bound by law not to harm the women when they go against those expectations.
Don't get me wrong - I'm fully aware of and against the double standards the women are subjected to in Western society, and whatever belief structures that some people have to help perpetuate them. To say the least. Those things are of great interest and concern to me as a woman in western society (and it kind of pisses me off that western women aren't helping more to stop those things) .... but it's still just not the same at all IMO.

I suppose I’m saying when comparing the end result manifestation about gender rules between the cultures, note that they come from the same place of the polarity inside all of us. E.g. “whoa she/he is hot but I’ll act mature and respectful”.