Diversity

Bentleyspop

rgambs said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

diversity doesn't mean swallowing up cultures. it means learning about, celebrating, and respecting other cultures. Now, I understand this may lead to some compromise, but those compromises, for the most part I think, are public (like no more christmas trees in shops, maybe changing a lyric or two to an anthem, changing sport teams' racist/caricature-ish mascots/logos, etc). That stuff doesn't bother me. if anything, I prefer it. 

previously, and still in many cases, cultures are still marginalized. I hated being in school and seeing a classmate outside in the hall alone during the lord's prayer. there's a reason that shit doesn't belong in public schools. do it at home or in your place of worship and everyone is happy. 

It seems that your issue isn’t necessarily with culture, but with a religion.  Are you ready to draw that religious line when it comes to other religions aside from Christianity?  

my issue is public versus private. 

and yes, I am. I would say the same if they started reading from the Koran in a public school. it has no place. 

Were do you draw the line at then?  Are you for no burkas in public, no crosses in public?  No religious  paraphernalia?  Because a display of a religion is in itself a dividing.  

I am sure Hugh draws the line where every one else does, private individuals can do as they please but public (ie government funded/sponsored/representative) should be entirely secular.

This exactly
I love all these christian conservative republicans who yell and scream about upholding the constitution  until it comes to the separation  of church and state.
Hypocritical jackasses

hedonist

josevolution said:

Immigration brings about diversity , I remember arriving here in America my dad didn’t move us into an all Hispanic neighborhood instead we lived in a total diverse part of town my 1st American friends were Polish , Italian , scottish , Irish & Caribbean Spanish ..
i didnt speak English but the 1st knock on my door to come out to play was not really spoken that kid had a ball in his hands and he motioned for me to come out to play with him , it was a universal gesture no words just point to me & ball and a wave of hand to come out ..Damn I can remember it like it was yesterday that boy ended up dying from AIDS in 1989 he was my 1st friend in this country...He was Scottish 

This made me smile...and I'm sorry your friend was taken by that motherfucker of a killer.

brianlux

Miss.Snowdrop said:

The two most important things in cultural diverse settings are: an open mind and respect

I have learned that in over 8 years of working AND LIVING in backpacker hostels. We have had staff members from every single continent and many many countries. And it works! 

We all live together, we work together, we get shit faced together! We celebrate most of the British holidays, since that is where we are based but have adapted a few from other countries as well and are always happy to learn about other culture's traditions. 
There are pot luck parties where people prepare their favourite food from home. We talk about the things we miss and the things we hate in our home countries. Sometimes we teach each other bits and bobs in our mother tongue - mostly swear words though

With all these influences it does not mean, that I have thrown my own cultural heritage over board - I have just gained a better understanding of some other's around the world and my own. I have learned facts about countries, I probably wouldn't have otherwise. I have learned to see my own culture with a different perspective - through a different pair of glasses, if you will. I have learned to value things about my own country I took for granted and learned that other things could use some improvement. 

All this is just my own experience. But I can only recommend everyone to move to another country - even if it's just for a few months. You will learn things about yourself and the world that no one can teach you!

Great post, fine ideas Miss.Snowdrop.

Thoughts_Arrive

If you don't like cultural diversity then go and live in a cave.

mattsl1983

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

diversity doesn't mean swallowing up cultures. it means learning about, celebrating, and respecting other cultures. Now, I understand this may lead to some compromise, but those compromises, for the most part I think, are public (like no more christmas trees in shops, maybe changing a lyric or two to an anthem, changing sport teams' racist/caricature-ish mascots/logos, etc). That stuff doesn't bother me. if anything, I prefer it. 

previously, and still in many cases, cultures are still marginalized. I hated being in school and seeing a classmate outside in the hall alone during the lord's prayer. there's a reason that shit doesn't belong in public schools. do it at home or in your place of worship and everyone is happy. 

It seems that your issue isn’t necessarily with culture, but with a religion.  Are you ready to draw that religious line when it comes to other religions aside from Christianity?  

my issue is public versus private. 

and yes, I am. I would say the same if they started reading from the Koran in a public school. it has no place. 

Were do you draw the line at then?  Are you for no burkas in public, no crosses in public?  No religious  paraphernalia?  Because a display of a religion is in itself a dividing.  

it really isn't. I have no issue with anyone wearing a cross or a t shirt with jesus on it or a bumper sticker that says "honk if you're not a heathen!". it's when it crosses the line to forced participation at a public event/gathering or government funded activity. like a school. now, if it's a private school that is religious, have at er. you signed up for it, so if you want that, go for it. but public school? nope. wear your burkas or your crosses, but no lords prayer in the morning. my grade 6 teacher read a fucking bible verse every morning to us. this was 19-80-fucking-6. not cool. no one listened, and back then either people were christian or they just didn't care, save for the rare student that I mentioned previously. but now? half the class would be in the hall. 

I’m confused by this idea that you want privat sector and government to be the opposites.  But you are okay with public schools allowing crosses and burkas, but you want the government to draw a line?  I’m a bit confused, and I apologize if you think I’m dumb, but I don’t understand that idea of separation.  The government shouldn’t, but private schools should, but public schools shouldn’t?

HughFreakingDillon

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

diversity doesn't mean swallowing up cultures. it means learning about, celebrating, and respecting other cultures. Now, I understand this may lead to some compromise, but those compromises, for the most part I think, are public (like no more christmas trees in shops, maybe changing a lyric or two to an anthem, changing sport teams' racist/caricature-ish mascots/logos, etc). That stuff doesn't bother me. if anything, I prefer it. 

previously, and still in many cases, cultures are still marginalized. I hated being in school and seeing a classmate outside in the hall alone during the lord's prayer. there's a reason that shit doesn't belong in public schools. do it at home or in your place of worship and everyone is happy. 

It seems that your issue isn’t necessarily with culture, but with a religion.  Are you ready to draw that religious line when it comes to other religions aside from Christianity?  

my issue is public versus private. 

and yes, I am. I would say the same if they started reading from the Koran in a public school. it has no place. 

Were do you draw the line at then?  Are you for no burkas in public, no crosses in public?  No religious  paraphernalia?  Because a display of a religion is in itself a dividing.  

it really isn't. I have no issue with anyone wearing a cross or a t shirt with jesus on it or a bumper sticker that says "honk if you're not a heathen!". it's when it crosses the line to forced participation at a public event/gathering or government funded activity. like a school. now, if it's a private school that is religious, have at er. you signed up for it, so if you want that, go for it. but public school? nope. wear your burkas or your crosses, but no lords prayer in the morning. my grade 6 teacher read a fucking bible verse every morning to us. this was 19-80-fucking-6. not cool. no one listened, and back then either people were christian or they just didn't care, save for the rare student that I mentioned previously. but now? half the class would be in the hall. 

I’m confused by this idea that you want privat sector and government to be the opposites.  But you are okay with public schools allowing crosses and burkas, but you want the government to draw a line?  I’m a bit confused, and I apologize if you think I’m dumb, but I don’t understand that idea of separation.  The government shouldn’t, but private schools should, but public schools shouldn’t?

I don't WANT them to be opposites. private entities should be allowed to do as they wish, as long as they aren't discriminating (hanging a cross in your window is not descrimanatory, saying "only christians will be served", is). I think public (government funded) should be neutral. Private can do as they wish. A privately owned restaurant should be able to have giant pictures of Jesus or Buddah or Allah (ok, not that one! HAHA) if the wish. A cafeteria at a government building? a big fat nope. 

a school allowing an individual the freedom to express themselves is completely different from that school forcing people to express a religion mandated to them. 

mattsl1983

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

diversity doesn't mean swallowing up cultures. it means learning about, celebrating, and respecting other cultures. Now, I understand this may lead to some compromise, but those compromises, for the most part I think, are public (like no more christmas trees in shops, maybe changing a lyric or two to an anthem, changing sport teams' racist/caricature-ish mascots/logos, etc). That stuff doesn't bother me. if anything, I prefer it. 

previously, and still in many cases, cultures are still marginalized. I hated being in school and seeing a classmate outside in the hall alone during the lord's prayer. there's a reason that shit doesn't belong in public schools. do it at home or in your place of worship and everyone is happy. 

It seems that your issue isn’t necessarily with culture, but with a religion.  Are you ready to draw that religious line when it comes to other religions aside from Christianity?  

my issue is public versus private. 

and yes, I am. I would say the same if they started reading from the Koran in a public school. it has no place. 

Were do you draw the line at then?  Are you for no burkas in public, no crosses in public?  No religious  paraphernalia?  Because a display of a religion is in itself a dividing.  

it really isn't. I have no issue with anyone wearing a cross or a t shirt with jesus on it or a bumper sticker that says "honk if you're not a heathen!". it's when it crosses the line to forced participation at a public event/gathering or government funded activity. like a school. now, if it's a private school that is religious, have at er. you signed up for it, so if you want that, go for it. but public school? nope. wear your burkas or your crosses, but no lords prayer in the morning. my grade 6 teacher read a fucking bible verse every morning to us. this was 19-80-fucking-6. not cool. no one listened, and back then either people were christian or they just didn't care, save for the rare student that I mentioned previously. but now? half the class would be in the hall. 

I’m confused by this idea that you want privat sector and government to be the opposites.  But you are okay with public schools allowing crosses and burkas, but you want the government to draw a line?  I’m a bit confused, and I apologize if you think I’m dumb, but I don’t understand that idea of separation.  The government shouldn’t, but private schools should, but public schools shouldn’t?

I don't WANT them to be opposites. private entities should be allowed to do as they wish, as long as they aren't discriminating (hanging a cross in your window is not descrimanatory, saying "only christians will be served", is). I think public (government funded) should be neutral. Private can do as they wish. A privately owned restaurant should be able to have giant pictures of Jesus or Buddah or Allah (ok, not that one! HAHA) if the wish. A cafeteria at a government building? a big fat nope. 

a school allowing an individual the freedom to express themselves is completely different from that school forcing people to express a religion mandated to them. 

So you are for government and government funded institutions not to restrict any sort of religious symbolism, but they just can’t promte one correct?  I think I misunderstood your previous point.

HughFreakingDillon

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mattsl1983 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

diversity doesn't mean swallowing up cultures. it means learning about, celebrating, and respecting other cultures. Now, I understand this may lead to some compromise, but those compromises, for the most part I think, are public (like no more christmas trees in shops, maybe changing a lyric or two to an anthem, changing sport teams' racist/caricature-ish mascots/logos, etc). That stuff doesn't bother me. if anything, I prefer it. 

previously, and still in many cases, cultures are still marginalized. I hated being in school and seeing a classmate outside in the hall alone during the lord's prayer. there's a reason that shit doesn't belong in public schools. do it at home or in your place of worship and everyone is happy. 

It seems that your issue isn’t necessarily with culture, but with a religion.  Are you ready to draw that religious line when it comes to other religions aside from Christianity?  

my issue is public versus private. 

and yes, I am. I would say the same if they started reading from the Koran in a public school. it has no place. 

Were do you draw the line at then?  Are you for no burkas in public, no crosses in public?  No religious  paraphernalia?  Because a display of a religion is in itself a dividing.  

it really isn't. I have no issue with anyone wearing a cross or a t shirt with jesus on it or a bumper sticker that says "honk if you're not a heathen!". it's when it crosses the line to forced participation at a public event/gathering or government funded activity. like a school. now, if it's a private school that is religious, have at er. you signed up for it, so if you want that, go for it. but public school? nope. wear your burkas or your crosses, but no lords prayer in the morning. my grade 6 teacher read a fucking bible verse every morning to us. this was 19-80-fucking-6. not cool. no one listened, and back then either people were christian or they just didn't care, save for the rare student that I mentioned previously. but now? half the class would be in the hall. 

I’m confused by this idea that you want privat sector and government to be the opposites.  But you are okay with public schools allowing crosses and burkas, but you want the government to draw a line?  I’m a bit confused, and I apologize if you think I’m dumb, but I don’t understand that idea of separation.  The government shouldn’t, but private schools should, but public schools shouldn’t?

I don't WANT them to be opposites. private entities should be allowed to do as they wish, as long as they aren't discriminating (hanging a cross in your window is not descrimanatory, saying "only christians will be served", is). I think public (government funded) should be neutral. Private can do as they wish. A privately owned restaurant should be able to have giant pictures of Jesus or Buddah or Allah (ok, not that one! HAHA) if the wish. A cafeteria at a government building? a big fat nope. 

a school allowing an individual the freedom to express themselves is completely different from that school forcing people to express a religion mandated to them. 

So you are for government and government funded institutions not to restrict any sort of religious symbolism, but they just can’t promte one correct?  I think I misunderstood your previous point.

correct. 

PJ_Soul

I generally agree with HFD there... But I have to admit that I am not cool with burkas at all, whatever the venue, because of what they represent in terms of gender equality. I know all the arguments for and against... the arguments for them (or for the right of women to wear them if they want) simply do not change my mind at all on this one, however controversial that may be. To me, supporting the burka and supporting female genital mutilation are pretty much along the same lines, philosophically. But other than that, yeah, I don't care, as long as nothing connected to the government pushes anything religious on people or uses religion as its own message (such as putting the ten commandments on the lawn of city hall).

benjs

I believe diversity is an old wooden ship.

rgambs

PJ_Soul said:

I generally agree with HFD there... But I have to admit that I am not cool with burkas at all, whatever the venue, because of what they represent in terms of gender equality. I know all the arguments for and against... the arguments for them (or for the right of women to wear them if they want) simply do not change my mind at all on this one, however controversial that may be. To me, supporting the burka and supporting female genital mutilation are pretty much along the same lines, philosophically. But other than that, yeah, I don't care, as long as nothing connected to the government pushes anything religious on people or uses religion as its own message (such as putting the ten commandments on the lawn of city hall).

Yeah, Burkas suck, but I don't believe banning them is the right thing to do.  Adults need to be free to hurt themselves if that's what they choose to do.

oftenreading

I don’t agree with what burkas represent and I don’t agree with banning them. Few things are going to worsen relationships with those of the Islamic faith, and worsen the lives of Muslim women in North America, like banning such items in public places. Affected women would lose what small freedom of movement they have, which will lessen their exposure to other options, and resentment grows. 

Thoughts_Arrive

I don't like Burkas but if a woman wants to wear one then I'm fine with that.

tempo_n_groove

Diversity can work as long as you have people willing to try it.

Try new foods, wear different clothes, play different games, pray to a different God, speak another language, adopt other customs, listen to different music.

I lived in Queens as a kid then moved out west to the whitest city in California.  The kids there thought I was an alien, I was different, spoke funny, was a little rough around the edges.  I got along great with the only African American in the school, go figure...

When I travel to other cities, countries I don't do the touristy things.  I ask a local what he/she does.  That to me is being diverse.

When you learn new things about other cultures and people you now have something in common with them and that goes a long way.

Saying "Islam a lakim" (spell check) to an Arabic speaking person breaks down so many barriers it's crazy.

Just my take.

jeffbr

Hajibs don't bother me in the slightest. Burkas, if the face is exposed don't bother me. Niqab on the other hand have no place in public in the west. If you want to keep your face covered, do it in private in your home. If you walk onto a plane, into a bank, into a government building and have your identity completely masked, then I'm automatically suspicious of your motives. You shouldn't get a government issued ID card without your full face being pictured. You shouldn't be let through security checks unless your face can be compared with your state ID showing your full face. I can't get a passport photo wearing a hat, or sunglasses, or even my prescription glasses. I have to take my glasses off to be photographed. Keeping your identity concealed due to mystical or mythological reasons isn't acceptable when there are security issues that the rest of society must comply with.

HughFreakingDillon

jeffbr said:

Hajibs don't bother me in the slightest. Burkas, if the face is exposed don't bother me. Niqab on the other hand have no place in public in the west. If you want to keep your face covered, do it in private in your home. If you walk onto a plane, into a bank, into a government building and have your identity completely masked, then I'm automatically suspicious of your motives. You shouldn't get a government issued ID card without your full face being pictured. You shouldn't be let through security checks unless your face can be compared with your state ID showing your full face. I can't get a passport photo wearing a hat, or sunglasses, or even my prescription glasses. I have to take my glasses off to be photographed. Keeping your identity concealed due to mystical or mythological reasons isn't acceptable when there are security issues that the rest of society must comply with.

in public, I don't care. everything else you mentioned, yes. 

PJ_Soul

I didn't say I think they should be banned. That seems to be in violation of the Charter of Rights. I would LIKE them to be banned, but that's not the same as thinking they should be. No, Muslim women are going to have to fight that fight on their own, as they battle against the disgusting patriarchy holding them down. I really really really hope that they do.
I will be curious to see how people feel if someone in a burka uses it as concealment commits an act of terror in North America though. I have a feeling perspectives will change about it. I'm not saying this is a reason I am against them - for me it's all about what it means for women and what it symbolizes about their positions in their communities.

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

Hajibs don't bother me in the slightest. Burkas, if the face is exposed don't bother me. Niqab on the other hand have no place in public in the west. If you want to keep your face covered, do it in private in your home. If you walk onto a plane, into a bank, into a government building and have your identity completely masked, then I'm automatically suspicious of your motives. You shouldn't get a government issued ID card without your full face being pictured. You shouldn't be let through security checks unless your face can be compared with your state ID showing your full face. I can't get a passport photo wearing a hat, or sunglasses, or even my prescription glasses. I have to take my glasses off to be photographed. Keeping your identity concealed due to mystical or mythological reasons isn't acceptable when there are security issues that the rest of society must comply with.

I don't like hijabs either, because they are also a negative symbol connected to male domination and control... But ONLY a symbol, so not so bad. I certainly am not against them per se - they do not work to exclude women from society (and they are very pretty, lol). It's only burkas that really bother me a lot - the face covering is pretty much the entire problem (although hiding the rest of the body sits very badly with me too... especially when it's hot out!). And yes, of course, it shouldn't be legal for people in burkas to go through airport security without them having to remove the face covering and be checked more rigorously under their giant sack.... Is that not the case?? People with their faces covered can't get through airport security or across borders, can they??

Go Beavers

The same dynamic that results in burkas also exists in Western societies. 

PJ_Soul

Go Beavers said:

The same dynamic that results in burkas also exists in Western societies. 

No it doesn't. I think I know what you're trying to say, and I do, I kind of agree if I'm right, but the "same dynamic" definitely doesn't exist in Western societies - saying that minimizes just how fucked up and awful it is for women in those Sharia communities.