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Our changing planet: What will we do?

brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
in A Moving Train
Houston.
Irma, Jose, Katia and more like them to follow.
Fires raging across the western U.S.
Second hottest year on record.
Global temperatures on the rise.

Obviously all this is telling us something, but what they're telling us is nothing new.  Scientists have seen this coming for decades.  What have the largest, most wealthy countries done about it?  Not much.

So what do we do now?  Throw up our hands, gnash our teeth, jump off a cliff?  Or be sensible and start acting?

What will we do now?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













«13

Comments

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,950
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    I've heard a little about that- would like to know more.  I hope it's true!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    I've heard a little about that- would like to know more.  I hope it's true!
    Reminds me of a conversation I had with the FIL

    FIL "We can't compete with China because they don't have any regulations on their pollution.  It's an unfair playing field."
    me "Have you heard of the Paris Agreement?"
    FIL "no, never heard of it"

    Of course this was in August, shortly after tRump announced the US would be withdrawing from said agreement.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    I've heard a little about that- would like to know more.  I hope it's true!
    Reminds me of a conversation I had with the FIL

    FIL "We can't compete with China because they don't have any regulations on their pollution.  It's an unfair playing field."
    me "Have you heard of the Paris Agreement?"
    FIL "no, never heard of it"

    Of course this was in August, shortly after tRump announced the US would be withdrawing from said agreement.
    Who or what is FIL?

    Yeah, The Rump pulling out of the Paris agreement-- a quintessential f up by a major climate denier.  And that agreement is a bit weak in the first place.  We need more!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    brianlux said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    I've heard a little about that- would like to know more.  I hope it's true!
    Reminds me of a conversation I had with the FIL

    FIL "We can't compete with China because they don't have any regulations on their pollution.  It's an unfair playing field."
    me "Have you heard of the Paris Agreement?"
    FIL "no, never heard of it"

    Of course this was in August, shortly after tRump announced the US would be withdrawing from said agreement.
    Who or what is FIL?

    Yeah, The Rump pulling out of the Paris agreement-- a quintessential f up by a major climate denier.  And that agreement is a bit weak in the first place.  We need more!
    Father-in-Law
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    CM189191 said:
    brianlux said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    I've heard a little about that- would like to know more.  I hope it's true!
    Reminds me of a conversation I had with the FIL

    FIL "We can't compete with China because they don't have any regulations on their pollution.  It's an unfair playing field."
    me "Have you heard of the Paris Agreement?"
    FIL "no, never heard of it"

    Of course this was in August, shortly after tRump announced the US would be withdrawing from said agreement.
    Who or what is FIL?

    Yeah, The Rump pulling out of the Paris agreement-- a quintessential f up by a major climate denier.  And that agreement is a bit weak in the first place.  We need more!
    Father-in-Law
    Ah yes, in-laws.  I've had some of those with whom such conversations are best avoided!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    tempo_n_groove said:
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
    :plus_one:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    Nothing comes for free. All power generation comes with an environmental cost. Some more than others, of course; sometimes far more. But hydroelectric power generation ends up with disruptions to the river ecosystems. No free rides here. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    * Unless you ride your bike :) 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • cottagesteezecottagesteeze Posts: 218
    tempo_n_groove said:
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
    Well considering China is leading the charge on alternative energy production and investment, I don't see how it is a "GREAT counterpoint"? Yea, it wouldn't be very helpful if they replaced gas cars with electric cars powered by coal power plants, but that's not at all the case.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 40,355
    cottagesteeze said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
    Well considering China is leading the charge on alternative energy production and investment, I don't see how it is a "GREAT counterpoint"? Yea, it wouldn't be very helpful if they replaced gas cars with electric cars powered by coal power plants, but that's not at all the case.
    What is the case then?  Please do tell...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,950
    edited September 2017
    tempo_n_groove said:
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
    They are actually focusing a lot more on solar power, but hydro power is definitely a factor too, along with wind power. Brian, yes, China has FINALLY realized that coal power isn't going to work for them moving forward.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    PJ_Soul said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
    They are actually focusing a lot more on solar power, but hydro power is definitely a factor too, along with wind power. Brian, yes, China has FINALLY realized that coal power isn't going to work for them moving forward.
    pretty interesting series on npr recently

    harnessing all that hydro power is causing whole 'nother set of problems

    the mekong: a river and a region transformed

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,950
    CM189191 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
    They are actually focusing a lot more on solar power, but hydro power is definitely a factor too, along with wind power. Brian, yes, China has FINALLY realized that coal power isn't going to work for them moving forward.
    pretty interesting series on npr recently

    harnessing all that hydro power is causing whole 'nother set of problems

    the mekong: a river and a region transformed

    For sure. This is why I'm not gung ho about hydro power. I mean, I'm not against it either, but it's not a catch all source. It only really works well in certain places IMO... plus with climate change, water is becoming more and more scarce. I don't think hydro is a power source that nations should be developing. On the contrary. We should be starting to move away from it whenever possible. Solar and wind power is where it's at. They are both literally unlimited power sources that climate change isn't going to impact (well, maybe for wind power, depending on the location, but there will always be other locations where it is a guaranteed source). But certainly not solar). I also would like to be pro-nuclear power but of course the safety issues need to be sorted out better first. Oh, and fuel cell technology is still expanding.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    I'm personally rooting for the sixth great mass extinction myself... otherwise known as the Holocene extinction

    Hopefully Kim Jong can get those rockets in the air to speed it up :)
  • cottagesteezecottagesteeze Posts: 218
    tempo_n_groove said:
    cottagesteeze said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    brianlux said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    China seems to have gotten the message. I think China will be leading the charge for sure.... because they no longer have a choice. Whatever the reason, though, it is great that China is suddenly making this a priority (or so it seems), because no other country would have as big a global impact on this kind of change.
    China wants to have all there autos run on electric by 2040.  That IS impressive.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/11/china-to-ban-production-of-petrol-and-diesel-cars-in-the-near-future
    Certainly better than running them all on gas but how many more coal burning power plants will need to be added to make this happen?  I hope they are also considering things like walkable communities, ride sharing and public transportation.   I hope we are too!
    GREAT counterpoint.  I'd like to see more hydro power.
    Well considering China is leading the charge on alternative energy production and investment, I don't see how it is a "GREAT counterpoint"? Yea, it wouldn't be very helpful if they replaced gas cars with electric cars powered by coal power plants, but that's not at all the case.
    What is the case then?  Please do tell...
    Straight from Wikipedia because I'm lazy: "China is the world's leading country in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over double the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States.[citation needed] In 2013 the country had a total capacity of 378 GW of renewable power, mainly from hydroelectric and wind power. China's renewable energy sector is growing faster than its fossil fuelsand nuclear power capacity."

    I put emphasis on the growth part more than the fact that they are the current leading producer of alternative energy.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon Posts: 36,976
    brianlux said:
    Houston.
    Irma, Jose, Katia and more like them to follow.
    Fires raging across the western U.S.
    Second hottest year on record.
    Global temperatures on the rise.

    Obviously all this is telling us something, but what they're telling us is nothing new.  Scientists have seen this coming for decades.  What have the largest, most wealthy countries done about it?  Not much.

    So what do we do now?  Throw up our hands, gnash our teeth, jump off a cliff?  Or be sensible and start acting?

    What will we do now?
    unfortunately..........nothing. not when one half of the world's most influential and powerful country's government and populace think there's nothing wrong. 

    once all of this hurricane stuff has wound down (and it will), the topic will change, and zero will get done. 

    it's up to the rest of the world to deal with it as best they can. America is useless in this area. 
    new album "Cigarettes" out Spring 2025!

    www.headstonesband.com




  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,950
    edited September 2017
    China also just built the biggest solar power farm on the face of the planet and is building solar power faster than any other nation by far. They increased their solar power infrastructure by 25% this year alone.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    And batteries



  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    Wind farms also have their problems, with impacts on birds. Maybe there are other impacts that I'm not aware of, also. Like I said, nothing comes for free, though some modalities have fewer costs than others. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • CM189191CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    oftenreading said:
    Wind farms also have their problems, with impacts on birds. Maybe there are other impacts that I'm not aware of, also. Like I said, nothing comes for free, though some modalities have fewer costs than others. 
    Wind farms and nuclear power stations are responsible each for between 0.3 and 0.4 fatalities per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity while fossil-fuelled power stations are responsible for about 5.2 fatalities per GWh

  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,950
    edited September 2017
    oftenreading said:
    Wind farms also have their problems, with impacts on birds. Maybe there are other impacts that I'm not aware of, also. Like I said, nothing comes for free, though some modalities have fewer costs than others. 
    The biggest impact of wind farms that I've heard of related to humans (sure they can kill birds and bats, but I doubt nearly as many as pollution does!). Those who live near them have complained about what's been dubbed "wind turbine syndrome". Some are skeptical about this, but.... Anyway, the solution to this is to not build wind farms next to homes. As for the aesthetics of the turbines... I actually think wind farms are cool looking. Obviously other disagree with me. And yeah, an unblemished vista is nicer, but hell, I'll take a wind farm on the horizon over a coal power plant or the complete death of our planet any day, right? http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbines-health.htm

    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    oftenreading said:
    Nothing comes for free. All power generation comes with an environmental cost. Some more than others, of course; sometimes far more. But hydroelectric power generation ends up with disruptions to the river ecosystems. No free rides here. 
    True!
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    oftenreading said:
    * Unless you ride your bike :) 
    True again,  although technically not even bicycles are free from some environmental impact- mining, production energy, etc.
    but still next to walking, lowest on the energy consumption for travel.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    PJ_Soul said:
    China also just built the biggest solar power farm on the face of the planet and is building solar power faster than any other nation by far. They increased their solar power infrastructure by 25% this year alone.
    Even this comes with a price.  Giant solar panel fields alter the environment over which they are installed causing much imbalance to that  ecosystem.

    I think the best solution is to use less energy, consume less, and for humans to reproduce in fewer numbers.

    This post has been brought to you by the words "less" and "fewer".  :smile:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    I'll take a few birds smacking into a turbine over blowing the tops off of mountains
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,027
    my2hands said:
    I'll take a few birds smacking into a turbine over blowing the tops off of mountains
    I would agree if the number of birds lost was small but the Audubon Society (  http://www.audubon.org/news/will-wind-turbines-ever-be-safe-birds , among other sources) say that as many as 328,000 birds are killed each year in North America by wind turbines.  There are some efforts to reduce those numbers but that really is a lot. 

    Removing mountain tops is certainly a big problem too.  Here's an excellent book on that subject:





    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













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