The Confederacy - Erasing History

mcgruff10

from the seattle times: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/lenin-statue-is-loved-hated-and-very-fremont/

If someone said there’s a statue of Lenin in the Fremont neighborhood you’d expect it to be of John Lennon, not Vladimir.

But for a neighborhood whose motto is “De Libertas Quirkas,” the freedom to be peculiar, it’s not a surprise.

The path to Seattle from Poprad, Slovakia, for this 8-ton bronze of the Communist revolutionary occurred because Lewis Carpenter of Issaquah saw it, bought it and brought it back after the collapse of the Soviet bloc.

He died in 1994, but the family still owns it, and Jon Hegeman, with the Fremont Arts Council, says it’s still for sale for $250,000 or best offer.

The 16-foot Lenin, striding boldly and backed by flames and firearms, still evokes strong responses, though he died 91 years ago.

Lenin was responsible for untold deaths, and many equate him with Hitler and Stalin. Vandals often paint the statue’s hands blood red.

He joins more than 60 other art installations in Fremont, including the Troll, the Guidepost marking the “center of the universe,” “Waiting for the Interurban” and the Rocket.

Fremontologist and neighborhood expert Kirby Lindsay Lanay says, “I hate it in the sense it upsets people. I understand their pain. I like art that makes you feel good.”

Mike Clark with the Fremont Arts Council says, “It’s perfectly Fremont.” At first he was opposed to the statue and “now, totally indifferent. It’s super popular and part of the (Fremont) shtick.”

Lindsay Laney says, “Love him or hate him, he’s as much a part of Fremont as the rest of our art. We dress him up in a tutu for gay pride.

“Taco del Mar made a giant (tinfoil wrapped) burrito for him to hold, but it looked like a doobie.”

There are few places in America where a statue of Lenin would find a home, and now the Communist revolutionary looks out over a capitalistic commercial business district.

Hegeman says if Lenin sells, he’d like to see another statue in its place.

Imagine John Lennon.

oftenreading

mcgruff10 said:

from the seattle times: http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/lenin-statue-is-loved-hated-and-very-fremont/

If someone said there’s a statue of Lenin in the Fremont neighborhood you’d expect it to be of John Lennon, not Vladimir.

But for a neighborhood whose motto is “De Libertas Quirkas,” the freedom to be peculiar, it’s not a surprise.

The path to Seattle from Poprad, Slovakia, for this 8-ton bronze of the Communist revolutionary occurred because Lewis Carpenter of Issaquah saw it, bought it and brought it back after the collapse of the Soviet bloc.

He died in 1994, but the family still owns it, and Jon Hegeman, with the Fremont Arts Council, says it’s still for sale for $250,000 or best offer.

The 16-foot Lenin, striding boldly and backed by flames and firearms, still evokes strong responses, though he died 91 years ago.

Lenin was responsible for untold deaths, and many equate him with Hitler and Stalin. Vandals often paint the statue’s hands blood red.

He joins more than 60 other art installations in Fremont, including the Troll, the Guidepost marking the “center of the universe,” “Waiting for the Interurban” and the Rocket.

Fremontologist and neighborhood expert Kirby Lindsay Lanay says, “I hate it in the sense it upsets people. I understand their pain. I like art that makes you feel good.”

Mike Clark with the Fremont Arts Council says, “It’s perfectly Fremont.” At first he was opposed to the statue and “now, totally indifferent. It’s super popular and part of the (Fremont) shtick.”

Lindsay Laney says, “Love him or hate him, he’s as much a part of Fremont as the rest of our art. We dress him up in a tutu for gay pride.

“Taco del Mar made a giant (tinfoil wrapped) burrito for him to hold, but it looked like a doobie.”

There are few places in America where a statue of Lenin would find a home, and now the Communist revolutionary looks out over a capitalistic commercial business district.

Hegeman says if Lenin sells, he’d like to see another statue in its place.

Imagine John Lennon.

Thanks for the fascinating information. Quite a back story there. 

JC29856

Here is another one, since were in the vicinity, 24 carat!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman_(Saint-Gaudens)#/media/File:William_Tecumseh_Sherman_Monument_New_York_January_2016_002.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman

The more Indians we can kill this year the fewer we will need to kill the next, because the more I see of the Indians the more convinced I become that they must either all be killed or be maintained as a species of pauper. Their attempts at civilization is ridiculous... Classic Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman

jeffbr

I always flip off Vlad's statue when I walk by it. 

mcgruff10

jeffbr said:

I always flip off Vlad's statue when I walk by it. 

is this before or after a few ipa's?

mickeyrat

JC29856 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

I thought this was really good:  https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html
“If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”

Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery.  On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side.  The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded.  I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded.  That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.

Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe)
So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars?
Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other.
Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.

news report said it was dedicated to the confederate states of america. Sure theres pictures somewhere in the google machine.

Go Beavers

JC29856 said:

Go Beavers said:

JC29856 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

I thought this was really good:  https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html
“If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”

Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery.  On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side.  The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded.  I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded.  That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.

Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe)
So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars?
Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other.
Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.

You're asking us to do research when you just said the statue that got torn down was "more of a war memorial"?

Where do I ask for research? Who is "us"?

'Us' is the reader, and you cleary said you recommend we read some history books on the subject.

Go Beavers

jeffbr said:

I always flip off Vlad's statue when I walk by it. 

I saw his body in Lenin's tomb. We questioned if it was really him. The skin was more Resessa-Annie like.  

JC29856

mickeyrat said:

JC29856 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

I thought this was really good:  https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html
“If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”

Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery.  On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side.  The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded.  I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded.  That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.

Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe)
So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars?
Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other.
Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.

news report said it was dedicated to the confederate states of america. Sure theres pictures somewhere in the google machine.

http://ncmonuments.ncdcr.gov/MonList.aspx?qry=City&Name=Durham

Monument:   Confederate Soldiers Monument
Location:   Old Durham County Courthouse, 200 E. Main St., Durham NC.
City:   Durham
County:   Durham
Dedicated:   05/10/1924

“In memory of the boys who wore the gray,”

CM189191

Here's a good litmus test: 
if tearing down a particular statue, monument or memorial is going to piss off nazis and white supremacists
you should probably consider removing it

Go Beavers

CM189191 said:

Here's a good litmus test: 
if tearing down a particular statue, monument or memorial is going to piss off nazis and white supremacists
you should probably consider removing it

Wait til impeachment happens. 

jeffbr

Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.

Go Beavers

It's a statement about racism and segregation.  

tempo_n_groove

Go Beavers said:

tempo_n_groove said:

JC29856 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

I thought this was really good:  https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html
“If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”

Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery.  On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side.  The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded.  I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded.  That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.

Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe)
So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars?
Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other.
Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.

I did bring up the Stalin statue in Seattle but no one has touched that topic yet.

We're also not in Russia. That's a key factor. 

We aren't in Charlottesville either yet we are still having a conversation.

Go Beavers

tempo_n_groove said:

Go Beavers said:

tempo_n_groove said:

JC29856 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

I thought this was really good:  https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html
“If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”

Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery.  On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side.  The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded.  I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded.  That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.

Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe)
So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars?
Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other.
Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.

I did bring up the Stalin statue in Seattle but no one has touched that topic yet.

We're also not in Russia. That's a key factor. 

We aren't in Charlottesville either yet we are still having a conversation.

That's still part of the US, I think. Since trump got elected, I'm in some bizzarro world where people draw parallels and equivilancies that are such an extreme reach in some attempt to make a point about hypocrisy (or something). 

Degeneratefk

Its funny to me that these "confederate history" nuts don't really know dick about the actually confederacy. Many of them will say "as many freed black slaves enlisted to fight against the north..." Yet they ignore or just don't know that most slaves that fought were forced to fight. Or my favorite is "we'll take down our statues when you take down your MLK statues,  parks, and road names." Really? You're comparing the southern civil war to civil rights? Fuck, I'm all about not erasing history, but fucking know it if you're going to pretend you love it. These are the same jack asses that bitch and moan about a few football players sitting during the national anthem while they're sitting on their fat asses at home when the fucking anthem is being played. 

mcgruff10

jeffbr said:

Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.

I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol.  I seriously can't think of another example.
When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.

Degeneratefk

mcgruff10 said: 

jeffbr said:

Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.

I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol.  I seriously can't think of another example.
When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.

That was part of Lincoln's reconstruction plan. He didn't want to alienate the South. So they were allowed to do that shit. Worst decision he ever made.

jeffbr

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.

I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol.  I seriously can't think of another example.
When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.

Yeah, I think that was a mistake. It probably sounded like a good idea at the time, but has created generations of Rebel Flag wavers.

jeffbr

mcgruff10 said:

jeffbr said:

I always flip off Vlad's statue when I walk by it. 

is this before or after a few ipa's?

Before! If it was after, I might be more inclined to pee on it.