Was that statue just a confederate soldier? Didn't see any reference to him other than just a soldier. In front of a courthouse may not have been the best place for it, but a common soldier is no comparison to a Hitler statue. I don't see anything wrong with remembering the hundreds of thousands who fought and died on both sides in that war. And a statue of an average soldier seems like a good enough memorial to me. Many, even most of those soldiers didnt have a choice in the war. Most didnt own slaves and were forced to fight in a war to benefit the few rich ones that did. These were poor desperate farmers who were forced to fight the rich man's war and died ugly deaths doing so. I think it is okay to remember that, and for the states to recognize the hundreds of thousands of boys they sent off to die for their cause, even if that cause was an unworthy one that they had no say in.
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
I did bring up the Stalin statue in Seattle but no one has touched that topic yet.
Lenin not Stalin. Big difference.
I always Freudian slip with that...
That statue made a HUGE stink years ago and I was curious if it was still there and it is!
There are articles about it being there over the years and how it bothers people but it's still standing.
Was that statue just a confederate soldier? Didn't see any reference to him other than just a soldier. In front of a courthouse may not have been the best place for it, but a common soldier is no comparison to a Hitler statue. I don't see anything wrong with remembering the hundreds of thousands who fought and died on both sides in that war. And a statue of an average soldier seems like a good enough memorial to me. Many, even most of those soldiers didnt have a choice in the war. Most didnt own slaves and were forced to fight in a war to benefit the few rich ones that did. These were poor desperate farmers who were forced to fight the rich man's war and died ugly deaths doing so. I think it is okay to remember that, and for the states to recognize the hundreds of thousands of boys they sent off to die for their cause, even if that cause was an unworthy one that they had no say in.
I like soldiers who have morals. They should tear down the confederate soldier statue and put one up honoring conscientious objectors.
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
This debate always reminds me of the Benedict Arnold "monument" at Saratoga. Arnold's later life came to define him and there is no escaping that, but before he was a traitor he was the hero of Saratoga. So...how do you note that without celebrating him? I think this is a good way to go about it.
Was that statue just a confederate soldier? Didn't see any reference to him other than just a soldier. In front of a courthouse may not have been the best place for it, but a common soldier is no comparison to a Hitler statue. I don't see anything wrong with remembering the hundreds of thousands who fought and died on both sides in that war. And a statue of an average soldier seems like a good enough memorial to me. Many, even most of those soldiers didnt have a choice in the war. Most didnt own slaves and were forced to fight in a war to benefit the few rich ones that did. These were poor desperate farmers who were forced to fight the rich man's war and died ugly deaths doing so. I think it is okay to remember that, and for the states to recognize the hundreds of thousands of boys they sent off to die for their cause, even if that cause was an unworthy one that they had no say in.
I like soldiers who have morals. They should tear down the confederate soldier statue and put one up honoring conscientious objectors.
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
You're asking us to do research when you just said the statue that got torn down was "more of a war memorial"?
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
I did bring up the Stalin statue in Seattle but no one has touched that topic yet.
The statue was constructed by a Bulgarian sculptor Emil Venkov, under a 1981 commission from the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia.[1][2] While following the bounds of his commission, Venkov intended to portray Lenin as a bringer of revolution, in contrast to the traditional portrayals of Lenin as a philosopher and educator.[citation needed]
Venkov's work was completed and installed in Poprad, Czechoslovakia (now Slovakia), in 1988 at a cost of 3,340,000 Czechoslovak koruna ($111,333 in 1993 United States dollars),[3] shortly before the fall of Czechoslovak communism during the 1989 Velvet Revolution.[1] Despite popular belief, the Poprad Lenin was not toppled in the demonstrations during the fall of communism. Instead, it was quietly removed from Lenin's Square, in front of Poprad's main hospital, several months after the Velvet Revolution.[citation needed]
Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze; Carpenter had met and befriended Venkov while in Czechoslovakia. In close collaboration with a local journalist and good friend, Tomáš Fülöpp, Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000.[1] After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993.[4]
With the help of Venkov, the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000.[1] Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home.[5] The statue arrived in Issaquah in August 1993, and Carpenter planned to install it in front of a Slovak restaurant. He died in a car accident in February 1994, during public debates on whether to display the statue in Issaquah that ended in rejection from the suburb's residents.[6] After Carpenter's death, his family planned to sell the statue to a Fremont foundry to be melted down and repurposed into a new piece. The foundry's founder, Peter Bevis, sought to instead display the statue in Fremont, and agreed to have the Fremont Chamber of Commerce hold the sculpture in trust until a buyer is found. The statue was unveiled on June 3, 1995, at the corner of Evanston Avenue North and North 34th Street, one block south of a salvaged Cold Warrocketfuselage, another artistic Fremont attraction.[7]
The statue was moved two blocks north to the intersection of Fremont Place North, North 36th Street and Evanston Avenue North in 1996, adjacent to a Taco del Mar and a gelato shop.[8][9] The new location is also 3 blocks west of the Fremont Troll, another Fremont art installation situated under the Aurora Bridge.
The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000.
Fremont was considered a quirky artistic community, and like other statues in the neighborhood (such as Waiting for the Interurban), the Lenin statue is often the victim of various artistic projects, endorsed or not.[citation needed] A glowing red star and sometimes Christmas lights have been added to the statue for Christmas since 2004.[11] For the 2004 Solstice Parade, the statue was made to look like John Lennon. During Gay Pride Week, the statue is dressed in drag. Other appropriations of the statue have included painting it as a clown, painting the hands blood-red, and clothing it in a custom-fitted red dress by the Seattle Hash House Harriers for their annual Red Dress Run.[citation needed]
The BBC highlighted Seattle's Lenin statue[12] after protesters removed Lenin statues in Ukraine.[13][14] Zygimantas Pavilionis, envoy to Washington D.C. from Lithuania, referred to the 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine by saying, "In Seattle, I saw that ugly monument to Lenin there" and warning that "one day you will wake up and instead of 'Go Huskies'" Seattle residents will instead see Russian license plates on military vehicles in their city.[15]
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
You're asking us to do research when you just said the statue that got torn down was "more of a war memorial"?
If someone said there’s a statue of Lenin in the Fremont neighborhood you’d expect it to be of John Lennon, not Vladimir.
But for a neighborhood whose motto is “De Libertas Quirkas,” the freedom to be peculiar, it’s not a surprise.
The path to Seattle from Poprad, Slovakia, for this 8-ton bronze of the Communist revolutionary occurred because Lewis Carpenter of Issaquah saw it, bought it and brought it back after the collapse of the Soviet bloc.
He died in 1994, but the family still owns it, and Jon Hegeman, with the Fremont Arts Council, says it’s still for sale for $250,000 or best offer.
The 16-foot Lenin, striding boldly and backed by flames and firearms, still evokes strong responses, though he died 91 years ago.
Lenin was responsible for untold deaths, and many equate him with Hitler and Stalin. Vandals often paint the statue’s hands blood red.
He joins more than 60 other art installations in Fremont, including the Troll, the Guidepost marking the “center of the universe,” “Waiting for the Interurban” and the Rocket.
Fremontologist and neighborhood expert Kirby Lindsay Lanay says, “I hate it in the sense it upsets people. I understand their pain. I like art that makes you feel good.”
Mike Clark with the Fremont Arts Council says, “It’s perfectly Fremont.” At first he was opposed to the statue and “now, totally indifferent. It’s super popular and part of the (Fremont) shtick.”
Lindsay Laney says, “Love him or hate him, he’s as much a part of Fremont as the rest of our art. We dress him up in a tutu for gay pride.
“Taco del Mar made a giant (tinfoil wrapped) burrito for him to hold, but it looked like a doobie.”
There are few places in America where a statue of Lenin would find a home, and now the Communist revolutionary looks out over a capitalistic commercial business district.
Hegeman says if Lenin sells, he’d like to see another statue in its place.
If someone said there’s a statue of Lenin in the Fremont neighborhood you’d expect it to be of John Lennon, not Vladimir.
But for a neighborhood whose motto is “De Libertas Quirkas,” the freedom to be peculiar, it’s not a surprise.
The path to Seattle from Poprad, Slovakia, for this 8-ton bronze of the Communist revolutionary occurred because Lewis Carpenter of Issaquah saw it, bought it and brought it back after the collapse of the Soviet bloc.
He died in 1994, but the family still owns it, and Jon Hegeman, with the Fremont Arts Council, says it’s still for sale for $250,000 or best offer.
The 16-foot Lenin, striding boldly and backed by flames and firearms, still evokes strong responses, though he died 91 years ago.
Lenin was responsible for untold deaths, and many equate him with Hitler and Stalin. Vandals often paint the statue’s hands blood red.
He joins more than 60 other art installations in Fremont, including the Troll, the Guidepost marking the “center of the universe,” “Waiting for the Interurban” and the Rocket.
Fremontologist and neighborhood expert Kirby Lindsay Lanay says, “I hate it in the sense it upsets people. I understand their pain. I like art that makes you feel good.”
Mike Clark with the Fremont Arts Council says, “It’s perfectly Fremont.” At first he was opposed to the statue and “now, totally indifferent. It’s super popular and part of the (Fremont) shtick.”
Lindsay Laney says, “Love him or hate him, he’s as much a part of Fremont as the rest of our art. We dress him up in a tutu for gay pride.
“Taco del Mar made a giant (tinfoil wrapped) burrito for him to hold, but it looked like a doobie.”
There are few places in America where a statue of Lenin would find a home, and now the Communist revolutionary looks out over a capitalistic commercial business district.
Hegeman says if Lenin sells, he’d like to see another statue in its place.
Imagine John Lennon.
Thanks for the fascinating information. Quite a back story there.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
The more Indians we can kill this year the
fewer we will need to kill the next, because the more I see of
the Indians
the more convinced
I become that they must either all be killed or be maintained
as a species of pauper. Their attempts at civilization is ridiculous...
Classic Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
news report said it was dedicated to the confederate states of america. Sure theres pictures somewhere in the google machine.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
You're asking us to do research when you just said the statue that got torn down was "more of a war memorial"?
Where do I ask for research? Who is "us"?
'Us' is the reader, and you cleary said you recommend we read some history books on the subject.
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
news report said it was dedicated to the confederate states of america. Sure theres pictures somewhere in the google machine.
Here's a good litmus test: if tearing down a particular statue, monument or memorial is going to piss off nazis and white supremacists you should probably consider removing it
WI 6/27/98 WI 10/8/00 MO 10/11/00 IL 4/23/03 MN 6/26/06 MN 6/27/06 WI 6/30/06 IL 8/5/07 IL 8/21/08 (EV) IL 8/22/08 (EV) IL 8/23/09 IL 8/24/09 IN 5/7/10 IL 6/28/11 (EV) IL 6/29/11 (EV) WI 9/3/11 WI 9/4/11 IL 7/19/13 NE 10/09/14 IL 10/17/14 MN 10/19/14 FL 4/11/16 IL 8/20/16 IL 8/22/16 IL 08/18/18 IL 08/20/18 IT 07/05/2020AT 07/07/2020
Here's a good litmus test: if tearing down a particular statue, monument or memorial is going to piss off nazis and white supremacists you should probably consider removing it
Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
I did bring up the Stalin statue in Seattle but no one has touched that topic yet.
We're also not in Russia. That's a key factor.
We aren't in Charlottesville either yet we are still having a conversation.
I thought this was really good: https://sports.yahoo.com/charlottesville-native-chris-long-discusses-city-wont-stick-sports-203627846.html “If you say ‘It’s history and shouldn’t be destroyed,’ then put it in a museum where they can educate people about how far we’ve come, and the dangers of white supremacy and the Confederacy,” Long said. “Don’t put it in a public place, where people who might be offended by it have to walk by it every day.”
Driving through New Orleans there is a highway that cuts through a large cemetery. On one side of the road is the black cemetery, and white on the other side. The white side is spacious with giant beautiful maintained monuments, where the black side is run down and crowded. I imagined what it must be like to commute to work and see that everyday as a black person living in a segregated city where the whites have giant spacious homes, and black neighborhoods are rundown and crowded. That cemetery will serve as a more appropriate monument to our history than any statue of some loser confederate general will.
Good post for sure. It got me thinking (collective cringe) So all this fuss over confederate statues, what is the message of tearing down these statues (or protest against the removal of )? That we wont tolerate/accept memorializing slavery? Im not an expert on the KKK or white supremacy groups, the ones that wanted to protest the removal of the statue in Charlottesville, do they advocate a return to slave ownership? Your post got me thinking about the black and white of war. That statue that was torn down is more of a war memorial than a symbol of slavery(or even hate). Do the protestors on either side think war is black and white? Any civil war historians in here? Was the civil war simply about the black and white issue of slavery? Were the confederates the only side in the wrong? Take it a step further are any wars black and white? Were the wars in Iraq/Afghan simply about avenging 911? Which side was in the wrong in those wars? Some of the answers may be found in history books hence the reason why I recommend to read a few. Imagine the line between the North and the South, like the road thru the segregated cemeteries, where literally neighbors were forced by allegiance to take arms and kill each other. Here's an idea tear down every offending statue but first educate yourself on its history and why it's there and try not to get caught up in the bastardization of it from some ideological fringe group.
I did bring up the Stalin statue in Seattle but no one has touched that topic yet.
We're also not in Russia. That's a key factor.
We aren't in Charlottesville either yet we are still having a conversation.
That's still part of the US, I think. Since trump got elected, I'm in some bizzarro world where people draw parallels and equivilancies that are such an extreme reach in some attempt to make a point about hypocrisy (or something).
Its funny to me that these "confederate history" nuts don't really know dick about the actually confederacy. Many of them will say "as many freed black slaves enlisted to fight against the north..." Yet they ignore or just don't know that most slaves that fought were forced to fight. Or my favorite is "we'll take down our statues when you take down your MLK statues, parks, and road names." Really? You're comparing the southern civil war to civil rights? Fuck, I'm all about not erasing history, but fucking know it if you're going to pretend you love it. These are the same jack asses that bitch and moan about a few football players sitting during the national anthem while they're sitting on their fat asses at home when the fucking anthem is being played.
will myself to find a home, a home within myself we will find a way, we will find our place
Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.
I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol. I seriously can't think of another example. When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.
Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.
I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol. I seriously can't think of another example. When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.
That was part of Lincoln's reconstruction plan. He didn't want to alienate the South. So they were allowed to do that shit. Worst decision he ever made.
will myself to find a home, a home within myself we will find a way, we will find our place
Why would cities put up statues of losing, treasonous, traitors anyway? I'm not from the South, and have no family in the South, so the concept is completely foreign to me. A hostile group took up arms against my country and got their asses kicked, and yet they still are allowed to memorialize their heroes in public places? Stick them in a private museum where others can go see them if they'd like, but honor them in town squares and city centers? Nope. I'm content to have them relegated to history books and Hollywood movies.
I'm telling you, it's the only time in history that the losers were able to put up statues and fly their battle flag lol. I seriously can't think of another example. When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.
Yeah, I think that was a mistake. It probably sounded like a good idea at the time, but has created generations of Rebel Flag wavers.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Comments
In front of a courthouse may not have been the best place for it, but a common soldier is no comparison to a Hitler statue.
I don't see anything wrong with remembering the hundreds of thousands who fought and died on both sides in that war. And a statue of an average soldier seems like a good enough memorial to me. Many, even most of those soldiers didnt have a choice in the war. Most didnt own slaves and were forced to fight in a war to benefit the few rich ones that did. These were poor desperate farmers who were forced to fight the rich man's war and died ugly deaths doing so. I think it is okay to remember that, and for the states to recognize the hundreds of thousands of boys they sent off to die for their cause, even if that cause was an unworthy one that they had no say in.
That statue made a HUGE stink years ago and I was curious if it was still there and it is!
There are articles about it being there over the years and how it bothers people but it's still standing.
http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boot-monument
Just because we need to remember history doesn't mean we have to honor those involved.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Background[edit]
The statue was constructed by a Bulgarian sculptor Emil Venkov, under a 1981 commission from the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia.[1][2] While following the bounds of his commission, Venkov intended to portray Lenin as a bringer of revolution, in contrast to the traditional portrayals of Lenin as a philosopher and educator.[citation needed]
Venkov's work was completed and installed in Poprad, Czechoslovakia (now Slovakia), in 1988 at a cost of 3,340,000 Czechoslovak koruna ($111,333 in 1993 United States dollars),[3] shortly before the fall of Czechoslovak communism during the 1989 Velvet Revolution.[1] Despite popular belief, the Poprad Lenin was not toppled in the demonstrations during the fall of communism. Instead, it was quietly removed from Lenin's Square, in front of Poprad's main hospital, several months after the Velvet Revolution.[citation needed]
Acquisition and move to Seattle[edit]
Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze; Carpenter had met and befriended Venkov while in Czechoslovakia. In close collaboration with a local journalist and good friend, Tomáš Fülöpp, Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000.[1] After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993.[4]
With the help of Venkov, the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000.[1] Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home.[5] The statue arrived in Issaquah in August 1993, and Carpenter planned to install it in front of a Slovak restaurant. He died in a car accident in February 1994, during public debates on whether to display the statue in Issaquah that ended in rejection from the suburb's residents.[6] After Carpenter's death, his family planned to sell the statue to a Fremont foundry to be melted down and repurposed into a new piece. The foundry's founder, Peter Bevis, sought to instead display the statue in Fremont, and agreed to have the Fremont Chamber of Commerce hold the sculpture in trust until a buyer is found. The statue was unveiled on June 3, 1995, at the corner of Evanston Avenue North and North 34th Street, one block south of a salvaged Cold War rocket fuselage, another artistic Fremont attraction.[7]
The statue was moved two blocks north to the intersection of Fremont Place North, North 36th Street and Evanston Avenue North in 1996, adjacent to a Taco del Mar and a gelato shop.[8][9] The new location is also 3 blocks west of the Fremont Troll, another Fremont art installation situated under the Aurora Bridge.
The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000.
Fame[edit]
Fremont was considered a quirky artistic community, and like other statues in the neighborhood (such as Waiting for the Interurban), the Lenin statue is often the victim of various artistic projects, endorsed or not.[citation needed] A glowing red star and sometimes Christmas lights have been added to the statue for Christmas since 2004.[11] For the 2004 Solstice Parade, the statue was made to look like John Lennon. During Gay Pride Week, the statue is dressed in drag. Other appropriations of the statue have included painting it as a clown, painting the hands blood-red, and clothing it in a custom-fitted red dress by the Seattle Hash House Harriers for their annual Red Dress Run.[citation needed]
The BBC highlighted Seattle's Lenin statue[12] after protesters removed Lenin statues in Ukraine.[13][14] Zygimantas Pavilionis, envoy to Washington D.C. from Lithuania, referred to the 2014 Russian military intervention in Ukraine by saying, "In Seattle, I saw that ugly monument to Lenin there" and warning that "one day you will wake up and instead of 'Go Huskies'" Seattle residents will instead see Russian license plates on military vehicles in their city.[15]
If someone said there’s a statue of Lenin in the Fremont neighborhood you’d expect it to be of John Lennon, not Vladimir.
But for a neighborhood whose motto is “De Libertas Quirkas,” the freedom to be peculiar, it’s not a surprise.
The path to Seattle from Poprad, Slovakia, for this 8-ton bronze of the Communist revolutionary occurred because Lewis Carpenter of Issaquah saw it, bought it and brought it back after the collapse of the Soviet bloc.
He died in 1994, but the family still owns it, and Jon Hegeman, with the Fremont Arts Council, says it’s still for sale for $250,000 or best offer.
The 16-foot Lenin, striding boldly and backed by flames and firearms, still evokes strong responses, though he died 91 years ago.
Lenin was responsible for untold deaths, and many equate him with Hitler and Stalin. Vandals often paint the statue’s hands blood red.
He joins more than 60 other art installations in Fremont, including the Troll, the Guidepost marking the “center of the universe,” “Waiting for the Interurban” and the Rocket.
Fremontologist and neighborhood expert Kirby Lindsay Lanay says, “I hate it in the sense it upsets people. I understand their pain. I like art that makes you feel good.”
Mike Clark with the Fremont Arts Council says, “It’s perfectly Fremont.” At first he was opposed to the statue and “now, totally indifferent. It’s super popular and part of the (Fremont) shtick.”
Lindsay Laney says, “Love him or hate him, he’s as much a part of Fremont as the rest of our art. We dress him up in a tutu for gay pride.
“Taco del Mar made a giant (tinfoil wrapped) burrito for him to hold, but it looked like a doobie.”
There are few places in America where a statue of Lenin would find a home, and now the Communist revolutionary looks out over a capitalistic commercial business district.
Hegeman says if Lenin sells, he’d like to see another statue in its place.
Imagine John Lennon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman_(Saint-Gaudens)#/media/File:William_Tecumseh_Sherman_Monument_New_York_January_2016_002.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tecumseh_Sherman
The more Indians we can kill this year the fewer we will need to kill the next, because the more I see of the Indians the more convinced I become that they must either all be killed or be maintained as a species of pauper. Their attempts at civilization is ridiculous... Classic Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman
news report said it was dedicated to the confederate states of america. Sure theres pictures somewhere in the google machine.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Location: Old Durham County Courthouse, 200 E. Main St., Durham NC.
City: Durham
County: Durham
Dedicated: 05/10/1924
if tearing down a particular statue, monument or memorial is going to piss off nazis and white supremacists
you should probably consider removing it
we will find a way, we will find our place
When I lived in spain I don't recall seeing any statues of the moors.
we will find a way, we will find our place