Another terrorist attack from the religion of peace. Prayers to all those effected by this.
Lol
Get ready for the apologist attack. Prepare for the following questions and subsequent points and you might be able to hold your own:
Do you know how many people die from mosquitoes each year? A few deaths from terrorism is nothing. Do you know how many people practice the religion of peace... peacefully? These events are outliers. Do you know that in 1995 Timothy McVeigh blew up a building in Oklahoma? There's just as much Christian terrorism as Islamic terrorism.
What are you trying to say.
Thirty bills is saying that he attributes the terrorism as a manifestation of the Muslim religion belief system, most likely because he's misinformed about the religion and has little direct contact with Muslims. He's minimizing terrorism committed in the name of Christianity, both past and present, most likely because he's more familiar with Christianity and those who practice it. He probably doesn't have much information about acts of murder currently carried out by Christians in the name of their faith. If he learns about these, he'll say it's an abomination of the faith and will give other reasons for it. But when a terrorist is Muslim, it's primarily because of their religion.
and there it is dirty!!
It was inevitable lol.
What's inevitable is that you completely misunderstood my point. You go back to what's worse as far as outcomes; Christian terrorism or Muslim terrorism. I'll break it down to one sentence: you think the religion is the motivator when it's done by a Muslim, and you attribute it to something else when it's a Christian.
No.
I don't reserve my disdain for Islam. I am critical of Christianity when Christianity needs to be criticized. In our era, I have a particular distaste for the Westboro Baptist Church morons, but again... protesting gays is a far cry from throwing them off building tops.
In our era... if you can point me to a Christian group of terrorists that are lopping people's heads off or blowing people up in random locations... I'll cast my stones. You have consistently failed to do this outside of pointing to random acts over several decades and hence, my position remains the same.
You forget I'm an atheist maybe? I'm
And for the record, I have no problem with people practicing religion provided their practices don't interfere with other people's lives.
There is much instability in Africa. Muslim factions have viciously attacked Christians in many well documented events in various regions. An uprising against such violence was only inevitable so... as much as you might wish to portray this as a random event and terrorism as we have come to accept it... it's more warfare in my mind with religion dividing the lines.
And I really hope you weren't inferring that I might feel differently because the victims were Africans.
I'm suggesting, and this reply supports it, that you attribute religion as a motivator for international terrorists, but deny it as a motivator when atrocities are done in a different setting.
In my response I acknowledged that your example 'could' be considered a case of Christian terrorism (I said "to some degree"), but I also spoke to factors that you seem to want to ignore and which didn't make it as clear cut as you so badly wanted it to be.
Christians retaliating against Muslims... or Muslims retaliating against Christians in a destabilized area of the planet without order doesn't resemble my idea of terrorism. It resembles conflict or war.
I'm afraid you are going to have to keep trying.
"Keep trying" is an interesting choice of words. As though you have dug in your heels and cemented your thoughts on the issue. I gave you a clear example, per your request, of Christians chopping people up, and then you attempt to reframe it as something different. Do you think the individual killing someone in the Central African Republic is more similar to someone in ISIS, or different (with regard to their belief system, martyrdom, etc) ?
An 11-year old girl on her way home from school is one of the victims.
Horrible.
It takes a special kind of person to be able to drive a truck into a bunch of innocent people.
What was to gain? I'm at a loss to explain the measurable gains from committing such a callous act.
It's a purely psychotic mentality.
I think that could be an underestimation of these terrorists. I agree it takes a "special" kind of person to do it, but it's not a psychotic act, since they carry out these attacks very deliberately and for very specific reasons that they firmly believe in (yes, the beliefs are fucked up, obviously, but that doesn't make them psychotic). As I think most of us know, attacks like this are meant to have a psychological effect both on Westerners, as well as on potential recruits. And honestly, I think each of these attacks do indeed reveal measurable gains for the terrorists. Sad but true. Each attack increases the sense of "us vs them". Even when the victim nation expresses love and support, etc etc, which is what seems to be looked upon as a western weapon in and of itself, each attack also strengthens the West's resolve against the terrorist groups, which in turn strengthens the resolve of the extremists. They WANT to escalate, and each attack does exactly that, one way or the other. They WANT more and more Westerners to hate them. They WANT more and more people to become Islamophobic. And their tactics are working. Nobody can deny that. The west is essentially playing right into their hands whether we like it or not.
FWIW, no amount of military retaliation is going to help. On the contrary. The ONLY thing that will stop these terrorists if for cultures to change enough so that extremists can no longer recruit and influence in the Middle East and the role of religion has to change in the region dramatically... It's an endless cycle that the west is helpless to break. Grim I know, but I don't think there is any solution to this mess other than time. A LOT of time. If this issue is basically a thing of the past in 50 years, I'll be pleasantly surprised. No amount of war or retaliation is going to stop it. Change has to happen on the psychological/cultural level in terms of populations, on both sides.... and that could go in the wrong direction. Is is going very much in the WRONG direction right now. I don't see it turning out positively at all, especially given America's stance right now, under the current government. But the same applies to all of the West IMO, made clear by this sudden current growth of the alt-right and populism, which is the exact worst long term response to the situation.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Another terrorist attack from the religion of peace. Prayers to all those effected by this.
Lol
Get ready for the apologist attack. Prepare for the following questions and subsequent points and you might be able to hold your own:
Do you know how many people die from mosquitoes each year? A few deaths from terrorism is nothing. Do you know how many people practice the religion of peace... peacefully? These events are outliers. Do you know that in 1995 Timothy McVeigh blew up a building in Oklahoma? There's just as much Christian terrorism as Islamic terrorism.
What are you trying to say.
Thirty bills is saying that he attributes the terrorism as a manifestation of the Muslim religion belief system, most likely because he's misinformed about the religion and has little direct contact with Muslims. He's minimizing terrorism committed in the name of Christianity, both past and present, most likely because he's more familiar with Christianity and those who practice it. He probably doesn't have much information about acts of murder currently carried out by Christians in the name of their faith. If he learns about these, he'll say it's an abomination of the faith and will give other reasons for it. But when a terrorist is Muslim, it's primarily because of their religion.
and there it is dirty!!
It was inevitable lol.
What's inevitable is that you completely misunderstood my point. You go back to what's worse as far as outcomes; Christian terrorism or Muslim terrorism. I'll break it down to one sentence: you think the religion is the motivator when it's done by a Muslim, and you attribute it to something else when it's a Christian.
No.
I don't reserve my disdain for Islam. I am critical of Christianity when Christianity needs to be criticized. In our era, I have a particular distaste for the Westboro Baptist Church morons, but again... protesting gays is a far cry from throwing them off building tops.
In our era... if you can point me to a Christian group of terrorists that are lopping people's heads off or blowing people up in random locations... I'll cast my stones. You have consistently failed to do this outside of pointing to random acts over several decades and hence, my position remains the same.
You forget I'm an atheist maybe? I'm
And for the record, I have no problem with people practicing religion provided their practices don't interfere with other people's lives.
There is much instability in Africa. Muslim factions have viciously attacked Christians in many well documented events in various regions. An uprising against such violence was only inevitable so... as much as you might wish to portray this as a random event and terrorism as we have come to accept it... it's more warfare in my mind with religion dividing the lines.
And I really hope you weren't inferring that I might feel differently because the victims were Africans.
I'm suggesting, and this reply supports it, that you attribute religion as a motivator for international terrorists, but deny it as a motivator when atrocities are done in a different setting.
In my response I acknowledged that your example 'could' be considered a case of Christian terrorism (I said "to some degree"), but I also spoke to factors that you seem to want to ignore and which didn't make it as clear cut as you so badly wanted it to be.
Christians retaliating against Muslims... or Muslims retaliating against Christians in a destabilized area of the planet without order doesn't resemble my idea of terrorism. It resembles conflict or war.
I'm afraid you are going to have to keep trying.
"Keep trying" is an interesting choice of words. As though you have dug in your heels and cemented your thoughts on the issue. I gave you a clear example, per your request, of Christians chopping people up, and then you attempt to reframe it as something different. Do you think the individual killing someone in the Central African Republic is more similar to someone in ISIS, or different (with regard to their belief system, martyrdom, etc) ?
I'm not sure what you're asking of me with your question.
As to the first item in your post... you did provide an example of Christians chopping people up. As horrific an example as it was... it just doesn't fit my idea of terrorism. I see it more, as already expressed, as conflict or war.
This entire back and forth between you and I is related to your notion that Christian terrorism is as prevalent as Islamic terrorism- to which I have disagreed. I'm proceeding with our discussion under that context.
Another terrorist attack from the religion of peace. Prayers to all those effected by this.
Lol
Get ready for the apologist attack. Prepare for the following questions and subsequent points and you might be able to hold your own:
Do you know how many people die from mosquitoes each year? A few deaths from terrorism is nothing. Do you know how many people practice the religion of peace... peacefully? These events are outliers. Do you know that in 1995 Timothy McVeigh blew up a building in Oklahoma? There's just as much Christian terrorism as Islamic terrorism.
What are you trying to say.
Thirty bills is saying that he attributes the terrorism as a manifestation of the Muslim religion belief system, most likely because he's misinformed about the religion and has little direct contact with Muslims. He's minimizing terrorism committed in the name of Christianity, both past and present, most likely because he's more familiar with Christianity and those who practice it. He probably doesn't have much information about acts of murder currently carried out by Christians in the name of their faith. If he learns about these, he'll say it's an abomination of the faith and will give other reasons for it. But when a terrorist is Muslim, it's primarily because of their religion.
and there it is dirty!!
It was inevitable lol.
What's inevitable is that you completely misunderstood my point. You go back to what's worse as far as outcomes; Christian terrorism or Muslim terrorism. I'll break it down to one sentence: you think the religion is the motivator when it's done by a Muslim, and you attribute it to something else when it's a Christian.
No.
I don't reserve my disdain for Islam. I am critical of Christianity when Christianity needs to be criticized. In our era, I have a particular distaste for the Westboro Baptist Church morons, but again... protesting gays is a far cry from throwing them off building tops.
In our era... if you can point me to a Christian group of terrorists that are lopping people's heads off or blowing people up in random locations... I'll cast my stones. You have consistently failed to do this outside of pointing to random acts over several decades and hence, my position remains the same.
You forget I'm an atheist maybe? I'm
And for the record, I have no problem with people practicing religion provided their practices don't interfere with other people's lives.
There is much instability in Africa. Muslim factions have viciously attacked Christians in many well documented events in various regions. An uprising against such violence was only inevitable so... as much as you might wish to portray this as a random event and terrorism as we have come to accept it... it's more warfare in my mind with religion dividing the lines.
And I really hope you weren't inferring that I might feel differently because the victims were Africans.
I'm suggesting, and this reply supports it, that you attribute religion as a motivator for international terrorists, but deny it as a motivator when atrocities are done in a different setting.
In my response I acknowledged that your example 'could' be considered a case of Christian terrorism (I said "to some degree"), but I also spoke to factors that you seem to want to ignore and which didn't make it as clear cut as you so badly wanted it to be.
Christians retaliating against Muslims... or Muslims retaliating against Christians in a destabilized area of the planet without order doesn't resemble my idea of terrorism. It resembles conflict or war.
I'm afraid you are going to have to keep trying.
"Keep trying" is an interesting choice of words. As though you have dug in your heels and cemented your thoughts on the issue. I gave you a clear example, per your request, of Christians chopping people up, and then you attempt to reframe it as something different. Do you think the individual killing someone in the Central African Republic is more similar to someone in ISIS, or different (with regard to their belief system, martyrdom, etc) ?
I'm not sure what you're asking of me with your question.
As to the first item in your post... you did provide an example of Christians chopping people up. As horrific an example as it was... it just doesn't fit my idea of terrorism. I see it more, as already expressed, as conflict or war.
This entire back and forth between you and I is related to your notion that Christian terrorism is as prevalent as Islamic terrorism- to which I have disagreed. I'm proceeding with our discussion under that context.
That's the thing though, I've never said it's as prevelant. My point is that so called Islamic terrorists are as much Muslim as Christian terrorists are Christian, which is that both are neither. People familiar with Christianity will shy away from using the term Christian terrorist and will give other reasons for the action. People unfamiliar with Islam will be quick to attribute the action with the religion itself.
Another terrorist attack from the religion of peace. Prayers to all those effected by this.
Lol
Get ready for the apologist attack. Prepare for the following questions and subsequent points and you might be able to hold your own:
Do you know how many people die from mosquitoes each year? A few deaths from terrorism is nothing. Do you know how many people practice the religion of peace... peacefully? These events are outliers. Do you know that in 1995 Timothy McVeigh blew up a building in Oklahoma? There's just as much Christian terrorism as Islamic terrorism.
What are you trying to say.
Thirty bills is saying that he attributes the terrorism as a manifestation of the Muslim religion belief system, most likely because he's misinformed about the religion and has little direct contact with Muslims. He's minimizing terrorism committed in the name of Christianity, both past and present, most likely because he's more familiar with Christianity and those who practice it. He probably doesn't have much information about acts of murder currently carried out by Christians in the name of their faith. If he learns about these, he'll say it's an abomination of the faith and will give other reasons for it. But when a terrorist is Muslim, it's primarily because of their religion.
and there it is dirty!!
It was inevitable lol.
What's inevitable is that you completely misunderstood my point. You go back to what's worse as far as outcomes; Christian terrorism or Muslim terrorism. I'll break it down to one sentence: you think the religion is the motivator when it's done by a Muslim, and you attribute it to something else when it's a Christian.
No.
I don't reserve my disdain for Islam. I am critical of Christianity when Christianity needs to be criticized. In our era, I have a particular distaste for the Westboro Baptist Church morons, but again... protesting gays is a far cry from throwing them off building tops.
In our era... if you can point me to a Christian group of terrorists that are lopping people's heads off or blowing people up in random locations... I'll cast my stones. You have consistently failed to do this outside of pointing to random acts over several decades and hence, my position remains the same.
You forget I'm an atheist maybe? I'm
And for the record, I have no problem with people practicing religion provided their practices don't interfere with other people's lives.
There is much instability in Africa. Muslim factions have viciously attacked Christians in many well documented events in various regions. An uprising against such violence was only inevitable so... as much as you might wish to portray this as a random event and terrorism as we have come to accept it... it's more warfare in my mind with religion dividing the lines.
And I really hope you weren't inferring that I might feel differently because the victims were Africans.
I'm suggesting, and this reply supports it, that you attribute religion as a motivator for international terrorists, but deny it as a motivator when atrocities are done in a different setting.
In my response I acknowledged that your example 'could' be considered a case of Christian terrorism (I said "to some degree"), but I also spoke to factors that you seem to want to ignore and which didn't make it as clear cut as you so badly wanted it to be.
Christians retaliating against Muslims... or Muslims retaliating against Christians in a destabilized area of the planet without order doesn't resemble my idea of terrorism. It resembles conflict or war.
I'm afraid you are going to have to keep trying.
"Keep trying" is an interesting choice of words. As though you have dug in your heels and cemented your thoughts on the issue. I gave you a clear example, per your request, of Christians chopping people up, and then you attempt to reframe it as something different. Do you think the individual killing someone in the Central African Republic is more similar to someone in ISIS, or different (with regard to their belief system, martyrdom, etc) ?
I'm not sure what you're asking of me with your question.
As to the first item in your post... you did provide an example of Christians chopping people up. As horrific an example as it was... it just doesn't fit my idea of terrorism. I see it more, as already expressed, as conflict or war.
This entire back and forth between you and I is related to your notion that Christian terrorism is as prevalent as Islamic terrorism- to which I have disagreed. I'm proceeding with our discussion under that context.
That's the thing though, I've never said it's as prevelant. My point is that so called Islamic terrorists are as much Muslim as Christian terrorists are Christian, which is that both are neither. People familiar with Christianity will shy away from using the term Christian terrorist and will give other reasons for the action. People unfamiliar with Islam will be quick to attribute the action with the religion itself.
Must have missed the headline where Christian's were heard repeating "to Jesus be the glory" while chopping off people's heads or driving trucks loaded with explosives into crowded areas... It's attributed to religion partly due them screaming "aloha snack-bar", I mean "allahu akbar"...while killing at random. They are the ones attributing their actions to their religion.
Another terrorist attack from the religion of peace. Prayers to all those effected by this.
Lol
Get ready for the apologist attack. Prepare for the following questions and subsequent points and you might be able to hold your own:
Do you know how many people die from mosquitoes each year? A few deaths from terrorism is nothing. Do you know how many people practice the religion of peace... peacefully? These events are outliers. Do you know that in 1995 Timothy McVeigh blew up a building in Oklahoma? There's just as much Christian terrorism as Islamic terrorism.
What are you trying to say.
Thirty bills is saying that he attributes the terrorism as a manifestation of the Muslim religion belief system, most likely because he's misinformed about the religion and has little direct contact with Muslims. He's minimizing terrorism committed in the name of Christianity, both past and present, most likely because he's more familiar with Christianity and those who practice it. He probably doesn't have much information about acts of murder currently carried out by Christians in the name of their faith. If he learns about these, he'll say it's an abomination of the faith and will give other reasons for it. But when a terrorist is Muslim, it's primarily because of their religion.
and there it is dirty!!
It was inevitable lol.
What's inevitable is that you completely misunderstood my point. You go back to what's worse as far as outcomes; Christian terrorism or Muslim terrorism. I'll break it down to one sentence: you think the religion is the motivator when it's done by a Muslim, and you attribute it to something else when it's a Christian.
No.
I don't reserve my disdain for Islam. I am critical of Christianity when Christianity needs to be criticized. In our era, I have a particular distaste for the Westboro Baptist Church morons, but again... protesting gays is a far cry from throwing them off building tops.
In our era... if you can point me to a Christian group of terrorists that are lopping people's heads off or blowing people up in random locations... I'll cast my stones. You have consistently failed to do this outside of pointing to random acts over several decades and hence, my position remains the same.
You forget I'm an atheist maybe? I'm
And for the record, I have no problem with people practicing religion provided their practices don't interfere with other people's lives.
There is much instability in Africa. Muslim factions have viciously attacked Christians in many well documented events in various regions. An uprising against such violence was only inevitable so... as much as you might wish to portray this as a random event and terrorism as we have come to accept it... it's more warfare in my mind with religion dividing the lines.
And I really hope you weren't inferring that I might feel differently because the victims were Africans.
I'm suggesting, and this reply supports it, that you attribute religion as a motivator for international terrorists, but deny it as a motivator when atrocities are done in a different setting.
In my response I acknowledged that your example 'could' be considered a case of Christian terrorism (I said "to some degree"), but I also spoke to factors that you seem to want to ignore and which didn't make it as clear cut as you so badly wanted it to be.
Christians retaliating against Muslims... or Muslims retaliating against Christians in a destabilized area of the planet without order doesn't resemble my idea of terrorism. It resembles conflict or war.
I'm afraid you are going to have to keep trying.
"Keep trying" is an interesting choice of words. As though you have dug in your heels and cemented your thoughts on the issue. I gave you a clear example, per your request, of Christians chopping people up, and then you attempt to reframe it as something different. Do you think the individual killing someone in the Central African Republic is more similar to someone in ISIS, or different (with regard to their belief system, martyrdom, etc) ?
I'm not sure what you're asking of me with your question.
As to the first item in your post... you did provide an example of Christians chopping people up. As horrific an example as it was... it just doesn't fit my idea of terrorism. I see it more, as already expressed, as conflict or war.
This entire back and forth between you and I is related to your notion that Christian terrorism is as prevalent as Islamic terrorism- to which I have disagreed. I'm proceeding with our discussion under that context.
That's the thing though, I've never said it's as prevelant. My point is that so called Islamic terrorists are as much Muslim as Christian terrorists are Christian, which is that both are neither. People familiar with Christianity will shy away from using the term Christian terrorist and will give other reasons for the action. People unfamiliar with Islam will be quick to attribute the action with the religion itself.
I can't recall your point ever being spelled out as succinctly as you have done here, but I'll take your word for it.
if you don't believe in hell I assume it's quite easy to go through life exploiting at will.
No. But if you believe you can be forgiven sitting in a booth with a priest, I guess it's easy.
or if when u die u simply dissolve into the body of your people and wont go to hell no matter what scandalous shit ya did, I guess that's super easy.
And thus we go back to that old standard - that people without religious convictions must, by definition, not have any firm values or moral convictions and that without fear of God to hold us in check we would all run amok. Difficult though it might be for some to believe, it is indeed possible to develop your own moral centre and values based on what's right and not because you are afraid of punishment in the afterlife.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
Comments
FWIW, no amount of military retaliation is going to help. On the contrary. The ONLY thing that will stop these terrorists if for cultures to change enough so that extremists can no longer recruit and influence in the Middle East and the role of religion has to change in the region dramatically... It's an endless cycle that the west is helpless to break. Grim I know, but I don't think there is any solution to this mess other than time. A LOT of time. If this issue is basically a thing of the past in 50 years, I'll be pleasantly surprised. No amount of war or retaliation is going to stop it. Change has to happen on the psychological/cultural level in terms of populations, on both sides.... and that could go in the wrong direction. Is is going very much in the WRONG direction right now. I don't see it turning out positively at all, especially given America's stance right now, under the current government. But the same applies to all of the West IMO, made clear by this sudden current growth of the alt-right and populism, which is the exact worst long term response to the situation.
As to the first item in your post... you did provide an example of Christians chopping people up. As horrific an example as it was... it just doesn't fit my idea of terrorism. I see it more, as already expressed, as conflict or war.
This entire back and forth between you and I is related to your notion that Christian terrorism is as prevalent as Islamic terrorism- to which I have disagreed. I'm proceeding with our discussion under that context.
Placed that way... it's fair.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/04/10/stockholm-terror-sweden-will-never-go-back-to-mass-immigration-pm-reacts.html
So did he say it or not?
see baba kama