Donald Trump

Abe Froman

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

cincybearcat

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  The election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

Gern Blansten

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  They election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

All good points...but yes if the election doesn't remove him then it exposes another angle of a failed system which is freedom of speech.  We have media outlets that spew absolute bullshit and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

for one, the impeachment process shouldn't be handled by congress. it's a partisan joke. i know it's not a legal proceeding, so it can't be handled by the courts. but maybe an independent body that doesn't pander to the president or their constituents with the choices they make. 

That body would have to be selected.  And who would select it?  Probably Congress.  And like committees, that body would be chosen by the party that has the numbers, in the House and Senate.  And it would have to be an odd number to avoid a hung jury.  So you would basically have to amend the Constitution to create this body and its makeup would essentially mimic the Congress.  

HughFreakingDillon

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  They election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

very true. it's staggering how many people don't vote. I guess there are many who can't or simply don't give AF.

dignin

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  They election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

That final check and balance, the election, is under attack.

How confident is anyone that it is going to be fair? Especially when the Republicans are going to give an OK rubber stamp to foreign interference.

cincybearcat

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

for one, the impeachment process shouldn't be handled by congress. it's a partisan joke. i know it's not a legal proceeding, so it can't be handled by the courts. but maybe an independent body that doesn't pander to the president or their constituents with the choices they make. 

That body would have to be selected.  And who would select it?  Probably Congress.  And like committees, that body would be chosen by the party that has the numbers, in the House and Senate.  And it would have to be an odd number to avoid a hung jury.  So you would basically have to amend the Constitution to create this body and its makeup would essentially mimic the Congress.  

I think a 3 judge panel.  Simon Cowell, Howard Stern, and Gwen Stefani.

And in the future when they are dead and gone, pick the 3 highest rated shows with celebrity judges and select 1 from each by viewers calling in.  Then when they have an opinion, it's straight majority.  2 votes = impeachment.

cincybearcat

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  They election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

That final check and balance, the election, is under attack.

How confident is anyone that it is going to be fair? Especially when the Republicans are going to give an OK rubber stamp to foreign interference.

I think the election itself will be fair.  I think idiots falling for facebook posts, tweets and the like are the concern.  I don;t think any votes were not accurate or were changed were they?  Just influencing the voters.

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

for one, the impeachment process shouldn't be handled by congress. it's a partisan joke. i know it's not a legal proceeding, so it can't be handled by the courts. but maybe an independent body that doesn't pander to the president or their constituents with the choices they make. 

That body would have to be selected.  And who would select it?  Probably Congress.  And like committees, that body would be chosen by the party that has the numbers, in the House and Senate.  And it would have to be an odd number to avoid a hung jury.  So you would basically have to amend the Constitution to create this body and its makeup would essentially mimic the Congress.  

I'm thinking random hollywood celebrities and musicians. LOL 

mrussel1

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

for one, the impeachment process shouldn't be handled by congress. it's a partisan joke. i know it's not a legal proceeding, so it can't be handled by the courts. but maybe an independent body that doesn't pander to the president or their constituents with the choices they make. 

That body would have to be selected.  And who would select it?  Probably Congress.  And like committees, that body would be chosen by the party that has the numbers, in the House and Senate.  And it would have to be an odd number to avoid a hung jury.  So you would basically have to amend the Constitution to create this body and its makeup would essentially mimic the Congress.  

I think a 3 judge panel.  Simon Cowell, Howard Stern, and Gwen Stefani.

And in the future when they are dead and gone, pick the 3 highest rated shows with celebrity judges and select 1 from each by viewers calling in.  Then when they have an opinion, it's straight majority.  2 votes = impeachment.

Genius, and perfect for our culture.  

dignin

cincybearcat said:

dignin said:

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  They election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

That final check and balance, the election, is under attack.

How confident is anyone that it is going to be fair? Especially when the Republicans are going to give an OK rubber stamp to foreign interference.

I think the election itself will be fair.  I think idiots falling for facebook posts, tweets and the like are the concern.  I don;t think any votes were not accurate or were changed were they?  Just influencing the voters.

I think votes changing is very much a possibility, in the past and future. And not much is being done to protect against those vulnerabilities.

And I will put on my tin foil hat here and say that if votes were ever changed nobody in power would want to admit it. It would undermine everything.

Go back to paper balloting.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/politics/russian-hacking-elections.html

Russia Targeted Election Systems in All 50 States, Report Finds

"It concluded that while there was no evidence that any votes were changed in actual voting machines, “Russian cyberactors were in a position to delete or change voter data” in the Illinois voter database. The committee found no evidence that they did so."

I'm sure they just looked around.

benjs

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

for one, the impeachment process shouldn't be handled by congress. it's a partisan joke. i know it's not a legal proceeding, so it can't be handled by the courts. but maybe an independent body that doesn't pander to the president or their constituents with the choices they make. 

That body would have to be selected.  And who would select it?  Probably Congress.  And like committees, that body would be chosen by the party that has the numbers, in the House and Senate.  And it would have to be an odd number to avoid a hung jury.  So you would basically have to amend the Constitution to create this body and its makeup would essentially mimic the Congress.  

I think a 3 judge panel.  Simon Cowell, Howard Stern, and Gwen Stefani.

And in the future when they are dead and gone, pick the 3 highest rated shows with celebrity judges and select 1 from each by viewers calling in.  Then when they have an opinion, it's straight majority.  2 votes = impeachment.

Genius, and perfect for our culture.  

I guess we need an impeachment buzzer and some confetti then.

mrussel1

benjs said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

for one, the impeachment process shouldn't be handled by congress. it's a partisan joke. i know it's not a legal proceeding, so it can't be handled by the courts. but maybe an independent body that doesn't pander to the president or their constituents with the choices they make. 

That body would have to be selected.  And who would select it?  Probably Congress.  And like committees, that body would be chosen by the party that has the numbers, in the House and Senate.  And it would have to be an odd number to avoid a hung jury.  So you would basically have to amend the Constitution to create this body and its makeup would essentially mimic the Congress.  

I think a 3 judge panel.  Simon Cowell, Howard Stern, and Gwen Stefani.

And in the future when they are dead and gone, pick the 3 highest rated shows with celebrity judges and select 1 from each by viewers calling in.  Then when they have an opinion, it's straight majority.  2 votes = impeachment.

Genius, and perfect for our culture.  

I guess we need an impeachment buzzer and some confetti then.

And a gong... bring back some Gong Show nostalgia.  

cincybearcat

mrussel1 said:

benjs said:

mrussel1 said:

cincybearcat said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

for one, the impeachment process shouldn't be handled by congress. it's a partisan joke. i know it's not a legal proceeding, so it can't be handled by the courts. but maybe an independent body that doesn't pander to the president or their constituents with the choices they make. 

That body would have to be selected.  And who would select it?  Probably Congress.  And like committees, that body would be chosen by the party that has the numbers, in the House and Senate.  And it would have to be an odd number to avoid a hung jury.  So you would basically have to amend the Constitution to create this body and its makeup would essentially mimic the Congress.  

I think a 3 judge panel.  Simon Cowell, Howard Stern, and Gwen Stefani.

And in the future when they are dead and gone, pick the 3 highest rated shows with celebrity judges and select 1 from each by viewers calling in.  Then when they have an opinion, it's straight majority.  2 votes = impeachment.

Genius, and perfect for our culture.  

I guess we need an impeachment buzzer and some confetti then.

And a gong... bring back some Gong Show nostalgia.  

I like the idea of the gong

stuckinline

.....

ikiT

double post...thanks for fixing the quote function...

Lerxst1992

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  The election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

If they’re not voting they probably don’t believe government is the solution. But I am concerned the democrats base response to trump was for extremist policies.

mickeyrat

Lerxst1992 said:

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  The election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

If they’re not voting they probably don’t believe government is the solution. But I am concerned the democrats base response to trump was for extremist policies.

the base? no. same as the other extreme. an opening was exploited. gop tried to absorb that in the tea party. you see how thats working out for them. 

much of what the progressive extreme espouses isnt necessarily wrong in my view.  they just arent honest in presenting it. very little if any gets passed as presented. there is no hope of gaining a 60 plus majority in the Senate so , its all hot air . 

some needle movement may be possible, but they need to make it seem like a gop idea.....

josevolution

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mrussel1 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

the longest running anything eventually fails. it is not hyperbole. it is a fact.

It hasn't failed.

it is in the process of failing now!! open your eyes. the checks and balances are not fucking checking or balancing.

Failed and failing are different tenses.  It hasn't failed.  If Trump isn't removed from office, it still hasn't failed because the process followed the Constitution.  I would argue the Republicans have failed in their duties for sure.  And a pox on them for it.  Until elections are cancelled or the military overtakes the civilian the government, or something like that, it hasn't failed.  The Constitution didn't fail when Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeas Corpus and I would argue that was far, far more dangerous to the Republic than the good Senator from Nebraska voting no on the impeachment articles.  I'm fully awake, but my eyes have a long historical lens.  

when did secession and outright open rebellion against the united states and what the president has done- breaching of the emoluments clause/soliciting help from a foreign goverment to win and election, and extorting an ally all become equated? that is apples to oranges. the southern states bolted on their fear of what lincoln would do to infringe on their rights. in this case the president committed crimes. the people agree, and the republicans in government are doing nothing about it. you are comparing two entirely different historical scenarios.

we are nowhere near a civil war here, but if trump walks from this, the country will take a generation to recover.

My point is that the Constitution survived much more stress than this moment in history.  I provided examples of those moments.  So by your own point, I agree.  Secession, Nullification, Habeas, etc, were far more dangerous moments in our country's history.  Trump not being convicted by the Senate is despicable, but not fatal.  Trump being convicted but refusing to leave, and the no action being taken would be fatal.  That's why I think this whole argument is hyperbolic.  

I think we are closer to the edge of cliff than most people believe..

dankind

Lerxst1992 said:

cincybearcat said:

Abe Froman said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

Please... calling it a failure because it's under stress is total hyperbole.  It's the longest running Constitution.  That's hardly a failure.  

no it's not hyperbole at all. it just hasn't been tested all these years. now it is, and it is showing GLARING problems with accountability. trump is showing single handedly that any one man who has power can fucking do whatever he wants. especially if he holds both chambers. and scotus. jesus, it's frightening how easy it seems to corrupt the longest running constitution. 

This is a great post, Hugh.  To me this is the problem.  Trump is doing and saying (so many lies) whatever he wants and not only is he not being held accountable but he many times is doubling down on his lies and then blaming/accusing others.

I hear you both on this, but let's not forget the final check and balance.  The election.  I don't believe it is fair to say that the system is inadequate yet.  I think the system is working as it's laid out...sure there are some oddities.  And sure, it's likely trump is impeached but not convicted.  But this becomes the #1 election issue.  And we will see what the will of the people is and what they are willing to put up with.  

The reality is with all this stuff you are seeing, the single biggest risk to the system and the single biggest reason we get what we get is because people DO NOT VOTE.  If everyone went to vote, we'd be in a much different position then we are today.  Pandering to the extremes wouldn't be happening on the same scale.

If they’re not voting they probably don’t believe government is the solution. But I am concerned the democrats base response to trump was for extremist policies.

Extremist? 

You mean like Canada, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Switzerland, Costa Rica, Norway, New Zealand, Sweden, etc., etc., etc.

The horror!

I'll ignore all of the talking points we've been spoonfed over the years about demographics, land mass, etc. They aren't reasons; they are excuses.