Donald Trump

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    PJ_Soul said:
    mrussel1 said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    I qualified it for a reason. American capitalism (and other variations in some other countries too) isn't sustainable as it is. The currently fast growing chasm between the rich and everyone else proves it. That is exactly what democratic socialism is about. Stopping the unsustainability of such a system.
    So that's different than saying capitalism is irredeemable.  If that's what she means too, then she is being foolish with loose words.  You make the argument that we have best economic system in the world, but the disparity is growing so we need to realign it.  Capitalism can't be left to its own devices, it will be corrupted by man, who is inherently corrupt.  So we have to adjust regulations, oversight, taxes, etc., to move it forward and close the widening gap.  You will get huge support from arguments (more articulate) like mine.  But some sweeping statement like she made will just get the Dems buried.  
    Well it is safe to assume she meant it in the context of America. I thought that was obvious.
    Maybe she meant it that way, but I'm a Democrat and I don't even know that for sure.  Republicans will hammer us with that.  It goes back to my point about these freshmen.  They need to be smarter.  She needs to be smarter on how she phrases things.  Don't let them weaponize your words.  
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    Tiki said:
    Capitalism is cracked for sure. EVERYTHING benefits the 1%...
    So is Americanism.  I've never seen anything like this and I was paying attention.

    Socialism is a label that's tossed around by people who don't understand it.   I fully and totally understand what a fascist is.
    Okay, so what economic system do you favor, if not market based capitalism?  We have feudalism, communism, subsistence, planned, capitalism, traditional (barter), and maybe a few more.  Or you can invent your own that isn't associated with these.  Which do you recommend for our 300 million people that will create a higher standard of living than we have today? 
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    I'm not in a position to implement a new system.  I'm just saying this system is cracked.  If I had solutions that large, Don Trump woulda been out on day 3.

    Thank you.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    Tiki said:
    I'm not in a position to implement a new system.  I'm just saying this system is cracked.  If I had solutions that large, Don Trump woulda been out on day 3.

    Thank you.
    So maybe we do have the best system available, and we just need to tweak it, not destroy it.  
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    the economic system in this country does not work for ALOT of poor and disenfranchised people, by the way.  We already had the insoc experiment, maybe a huge shift toward real Socialism (without the evil dictator of course) would help ease suffering in this country.   

    Power to the People, brother.  No delay.

    I'm just trying to figure out how I'm gonna get those Eddie pre sales.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    or a slight shift...take your pick
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    Don Trump makes it worse.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    Tiki said:
    the economic system in this country does not work for ALOT of poor and disenfranchised people, by the way.  We already had the insoc experiment, maybe a huge shift toward real Socialism (without the evil dictator of course) would help ease suffering in this country.   

    Power to the People, brother.  No delay.

    I'm just trying to figure out how I'm gonna get those Eddie pre sales.
    There is not one country that has had a substantial socialism as their main economic system and had it work.  It doesn't work.  You can have pockets of it, but not writ large.  And we already have pockets of it for some classes of people.  
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    Snowplowing is LITERALLY socialism.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    Caring about the environment is LITERALLY socialism.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    Carry on.
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    Tiki said:
    Snowplowing is LITERALLY socialism.
    Of course, so is a police force, and fireman and roads and public schools.  We have a mixed economy but it's basis is market capitalism as that's what generates the revenue for the government to be able to provide these services that you outline.  
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,203
    mrussel1 said:
    Tiki said:
    Snowplowing is LITERALLY socialism.
    Of course, so is a police force, and fireman and roads and public schools.  We have a mixed economy but it's basis is market capitalism as that's what generates the revenue for the government to be able to provide these services that you outline.  
    None of these things are, by definition, socialism.  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

    So the definition of socialism is about "the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc..."

    Therefore, when the left brings this stuff out, it's not, by technicality true.  Of course, that also means that 99% of the right's whining and scare tactics about socialism are dishonest as well. For the right, "socialism" has become "publicly-funded things we don't like."

    In practice, I do see socialism - capitalism as a continuum, where these things are socialized in that we pay for them and they are done for us.  Military, regulations on beef, etc., are social in nature, even if they don't fit the technical definition. 
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Tiki said:
    Snowplowing is LITERALLY socialism.
    Of course, so is a police force, and fireman and roads and public schools.  We have a mixed economy but it's basis is market capitalism as that's what generates the revenue for the government to be able to provide these services that you outline.  
    None of these things are, by definition, socialism.  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

    So the definition of socialism is about "the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc..."

    Therefore, when the left brings this stuff out, it's not, by technicality true.  Of course, that also means that 99% of the right's whining and scare tactics about socialism are dishonest as well. For the right, "socialism" has become "publicly-funded things we don't like."

    In practice, I do see socialism - capitalism as a continuum, where these things are socialized in that we pay for them and they are done for us.  Military, regulations on beef, etc., are social in nature, even if they don't fit the technical definition. 
    You're right, we tend to think of social services as socialism.   I don't even know if Medicare can be considered socialism because the gov't does not provide the doctors or the medicine, they simply serve as the insurance mechanism.  
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    OKthen
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    edited March 2019
    Capitalism isn't religion.  It's not even America.

    I refer you to the Margaritaville episode of South Park.

    The economy is not a real thing.  
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,185
    mrussel1 said:
    Tiki said:
    The Socialism "label" by the Trumpsters needs to be aggressively countered with the label of fascism. 

    The wanna be Mussolini strongman/dictator act has gone around the bend. 
    Arrest him already.  He has committed CRIMES.   See what happens.
    How do you counter something as false, when you freely admit it?  The socialism label sticks because there are members of the wing of the party that actively embrace it.  AOC calling capitalism "irredeemable" was most unhelpful.  
    Agreed. They're shooting themselves in the feet 

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/15/house-democrats-moderates-2020-aoc-1220643
    www.myspace.com
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    mrussel1 said:
    Tiki said:
    The Socialism "label" by the Trumpsters needs to be aggressively countered with the label of fascism. 

    The wanna be Mussolini strongman/dictator act has gone around the bend. 
    Arrest him already.  He has committed CRIMES.   See what happens.
    How do you counter something as false, when you freely admit it?  The socialism label sticks because there are members of the wing of the party that actively embrace it.  AOC calling capitalism "irredeemable" was most unhelpful.  
    Agreed. They're shooting themselves in the feet 

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/15/house-democrats-moderates-2020-aoc-1220643
    And right on the cover is my representative, Abigail Spanberger.  She is the first Dem to represent my area in 40 years, following Eric Cantor and Dave Brat, two very conservative members.  She is a moderate.  I'm a moderate.  My district was conservative but it trended blue and flipped finally.  I'd be crushed if it flips back because of those handful of reps.  We are the definition of purple.  
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    "That'll NEVER work..." I say with my arms crossed.

    You know what will never work?

    https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/media:3098a308c034479c92589d8b8f638547/576.mp4
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    FASCISM is way more dangerous than whatever the misinterpretation and misrepresentation of socialism that Kelly Ann Conway and Chuck Grassley spin for Don Trump and you all are buying into it. 
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • ikiTikiT USA Posts: 11,055
    but whatever
    Bristow 05132010 to Amsterdam 2 06132018
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 10,861
    Racist-in-Chief.....

    In wake of mosque attacks, Trump downplays threat from white nationalists: 'I think it's a small group of people'
    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-downplays-threat-from-white-supremacists-i-think-its-a-small-group-of-people-205240100.html
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,807
    mrussel1 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Tiki said:
    Snowplowing is LITERALLY socialism.
    Of course, so is a police force, and fireman and roads and public schools.  We have a mixed economy but it's basis is market capitalism as that's what generates the revenue for the government to be able to provide these services that you outline.  
    None of these things are, by definition, socialism.  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

    So the definition of socialism is about "the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc..."

    Therefore, when the left brings this stuff out, it's not, by technicality true.  Of course, that also means that 99% of the right's whining and scare tactics about socialism are dishonest as well. For the right, "socialism" has become "publicly-funded things we don't like."

    In practice, I do see socialism - capitalism as a continuum, where these things are socialized in that we pay for them and they are done for us.  Military, regulations on beef, etc., are social in nature, even if they don't fit the technical definition. 
    You're right, we tend to think of social services as socialism.   I don't even know if Medicare can be considered socialism because the gov't does not provide the doctors or the medicine, they simply serve as the insurance mechanism.  


    If it's government owned, it's socialism. The market pricing for Medicare is determined by the government.

    The US is not considered a capitalist economy. It is considered a mixed economy.

    Oil and corn subsidies are not capitalism. They are examples of the govt picking winners and losers. Like socialism.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,921
    mrussel1 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Tiki said:
    Snowplowing is LITERALLY socialism.
    Of course, so is a police force, and fireman and roads and public schools.  We have a mixed economy but it's basis is market capitalism as that's what generates the revenue for the government to be able to provide these services that you outline.  
    None of these things are, by definition, socialism.  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

    So the definition of socialism is about "the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc..."

    Therefore, when the left brings this stuff out, it's not, by technicality true.  Of course, that also means that 99% of the right's whining and scare tactics about socialism are dishonest as well. For the right, "socialism" has become "publicly-funded things we don't like."

    In practice, I do see socialism - capitalism as a continuum, where these things are socialized in that we pay for them and they are done for us.  Military, regulations on beef, etc., are social in nature, even if they don't fit the technical definition. 
    You're right, we tend to think of social services as socialism.   I don't even know if Medicare can be considered socialism because the gov't does not provide the doctors or the medicine, they simply serve as the insurance mechanism.  


    If it's government owned, it's socialism. The market pricing for Medicare is determined by the government.

    The US is not considered a capitalist economy. It is considered a mixed economy.

    Oil and corn subsidies are not capitalism. They are examples of the govt picking winners and losers. Like socialism.
    Right market economy and mixed.  There's no such thing as pure capitalism in practice, or even traditional laissez-faire.  The pricing is determined by the gov't but the services are not, so I don't even know if you can consider it gov't owned.  The point is that no one has created a system that has lifted more people out of poverty or stimulated innovation like the economy we practice, and frankly the economy that the rest of the free world practices, with variations between what the gov't provides vs free enterprise.  So I don't know how AOC can say capitalism is "irredeemable".  
  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 6,807
    edited March 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    OnWis97 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Tiki said:
    Snowplowing is LITERALLY socialism.
    Of course, so is a police force, and fireman and roads and public schools.  We have a mixed economy but it's basis is market capitalism as that's what generates the revenue for the government to be able to provide these services that you outline.  
    None of these things are, by definition, socialism.  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/socialism

    So the definition of socialism is about "the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc..."

    Therefore, when the left brings this stuff out, it's not, by technicality true.  Of course, that also means that 99% of the right's whining and scare tactics about socialism are dishonest as well. For the right, "socialism" has become "publicly-funded things we don't like."

    In practice, I do see socialism - capitalism as a continuum, where these things are socialized in that we pay for them and they are done for us.  Military, regulations on beef, etc., are social in nature, even if they don't fit the technical definition. 
    You're right, we tend to think of social services as socialism.   I don't even know if Medicare can be considered socialism because the gov't does not provide the doctors or the medicine, they simply serve as the insurance mechanism.  


    If it's government owned, it's socialism. The market pricing for Medicare is determined by the government.

    The US is not considered a capitalist economy. It is considered a mixed economy.

    Oil and corn subsidies are not capitalism. They are examples of the govt picking winners and losers. Like socialism.
    Right market economy and mixed.  There's no such thing as pure capitalism in practice, or even traditional laissez-faire.  The pricing is determined by the gov't but the services are not, so I don't even know if you can consider it gov't owned.  The point is that no one has created a system that has lifted more people out of poverty or stimulated innovation like the economy we practice, and frankly the economy that the rest of the free world practices, with variations between what the gov't provides vs free enterprise.  So I don't know how AOC can say capitalism is "irredeemable".  


    Not that the bare minimum of sustainability, poverty, isn't a depressing measure of success of an economic system, but there is a decent sized list of countries with a lower poverty  rate than the US. Many on that list are from socialist Europe.

     
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 30,132
    Racist-in-Chief.....

    In wake of mosque attacks, Trump downplays threat from white nationalists: 'I think it's a small group of people'
    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-downplays-threat-from-white-supremacists-i-think-its-a-small-group-of-people-205240100.html
    As long as they stick up & vote for him they are good to go ...
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 10,861
    Racist-in-Chief.....

    In wake of mosque attacks, Trump downplays threat from white nationalists: 'I think it's a small group of people'
    https://news.yahoo.com/trump-downplays-threat-from-white-supremacists-i-think-its-a-small-group-of-people-205240100.html
    As long as they stick up & vote for him they are good to go ...
    And a reminder...

    When you support a racist in any way shape or form that makes you a racist as well. 
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,008
    edited March 2019
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, Colorado Posts: 10,861
    Can't believe he actually wrote this. But if he did good for him finally doing the right thing......


  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,845
    Can't believe he actually wrote this. But if he did good for him finally doing the right thing......


    It’s good to see a decent tweet from him. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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