President Elect Trump

jeffbr

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

rustneversleeps

I KNOW EVERYTHING.... HUUURNNT HUUURNNNT

HughFreakingDillon

JimmyV said:

Third party voters are too easily scapegoated. An easy minority for Democrats to point the finger of blame at rather than look at the many mistakes they themselves made along the way. Jill Stein didn't cost Hillary Clinton this election. Neither did Gary Johnson.

I agree with this. if you are in a position to lose an election because people wanted to vote 3rd party, you don't belong in the white house. period.

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

jeffbr

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

PJ_Soul

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

josevolution

At the end of the day all parties are to be blamed for Bafoon being PE ! 3parties included ! !

BS44325

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

CM189191

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

Seriously, what we need in a leader is someone charismatic. Someone who has the ability to move large audiences with bombastic speeches. Not this flawed candidate, but someone more....perfect. Like a super-person. Or an Ubermensch, if you will.

Qualifications, schmualifications....amiright?!

PJ_Soul

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying why I think some blame lands on 3rd parties and 3rd party voters as well. I totally think there is a lot of blame to spread around to others as well! However, I do believe that the hate campaign against Hillary made the difference between Trump winning and losing. I could say the same about a couple of other factors as well, but that doesn't take responsibility off of 3rd parties.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying why I think some blame lands on 3rd parties and 3rd party voters as well. I totally think there is a lot of blame to spread around to others as well! However, I do believe that the hate campaign against Hillary made the difference between Trump winning and losing. I could say the same about a couple of other factors as well, but that doesn't take responsibility off of 3rd parties.

blaming 3rd parties is a cop out. 3rd parties are allowed to exist and people have a right to a different option. if 3rd parties are forever relegated to "we'll vote for you, but only if we know x candidate is in the bag to win", they will never get the wheels moving. maybe what comes out of this is a bigger push towards an alternative. it took a long damn time, but if Jack Layton (Canadian federal NDP leader, for my american friends) hadn't died, I'm convinced he would have been PM.

BS is right; clinton didn't inspire. to be a leader at this level, you can't be just a good leader, you have to be able to project that quality. I always thought it was odd that the dem candidate this time was the failed one from last time.

my2hands

Trump sucks.

Next question

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying why I think some blame lands on 3rd parties and 3rd party voters as well. I totally think there is a lot of blame to spread around to others as well! However, I do believe that the hate campaign against Hillary made the difference between Trump winning and losing. I could say the same about a couple of other factors as well, but that doesn't take responsibility off of 3rd parties.

blaming 3rd parties is a cop out. 3rd parties are allowed to exist and people have a right to a different option. if 3rd parties are forever relegated to "we'll vote for you, but only if we know x candidate is in the bag to win", they will never get the wheels moving. maybe what comes out of this is a bigger push towards an alternative. it took a long damn time, but if Jack Layton (Canadian federal NDP leader, for my american friends) hadn't died, I'm convinced he would have been PM.

BS is right; clinton didn't inspire. to be a leader at this level, you can't be just a good leader, you have to be able to project that quality. I always thought it was odd that the dem candidate this time was the failed one from last time.

I'm not blaming the existence of 3rd parties. I'm blaming their hate campaign against Clinton at the precise time they did it and the precise way they did it (and the bullshit they conjured too). I don't consider any "normal circumstances" at the moment. I do not think that 3rd parties should be forever relegated to an option only if a particular one of two parties has a win in the bag (as a Canadian, that thought actually seems ludicrous, and I'm pretty sure you know that I don't support a 2-party system). I am specifically talking about the threat of Donald Trump. I would never say or think what I am now if the circumstances weren't very abnormal. But they were. They were extremely abnormal circumstances, and that is why I think the blame that is there to spread around is spread around in an abnormal way too. I do not think of this in sweeping terms. My feelings are very precisely focused in on the absurdity and horror of Trump and the election that he was in, and the one where 3rd parties (and the two main parties) just completely screwed the pooch. The 3rd parties and their supporters had a hand to play in the absurdity and overall bullshit that was the 2016 election, and I'm not going to let them off the hook (not that they care - they are still riding high on their delicate egos I'm sure).

CM189191

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying why I think some blame lands on 3rd parties and 3rd party voters as well. I totally think there is a lot of blame to spread around to others as well! However, I do believe that the hate campaign against Hillary made the difference between Trump winning and losing. I could say the same about a couple of other factors as well, but that doesn't take responsibility off of 3rd parties.

blaming 3rd parties is a cop out. 3rd parties are allowed to exist and people have a right to a different option. if 3rd parties are forever relegated to "we'll vote for you, but only if we know x candidate is in the bag to win", they will never get the wheels moving. maybe what comes out of this is a bigger push towards an alternative. it took a long damn time, but if Jack Layton (Canadian federal NDP leader, for my american friends) hadn't died, I'm convinced he would have been PM.

BS is right; clinton didn't inspire. to be a leader at this level, you can't be just a good leader, you have to be able to project that quality. I always thought it was odd that the dem candidate this time was the failed one from last time.

Gonna have to disagree with you here. We have a 2 party system here, not proportional representation. The checks and balances are in the 3 branches, also represented by the 2 party system. Sure the occasional independent or libertarian slips through the cracks and finds a seat in Congress, but they usually end up finding their allegiances on one side of the aisle or the other. Voting 3rd party for President is a cop out. It does litte more than give the 3rd party voter the luxury of saying, "don't blame me, I didn't vote for so-and-so".

see: Duverger's law for additional reading

jeffbr

CM189191 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying why I think some blame lands on 3rd parties and 3rd party voters as well. I totally think there is a lot of blame to spread around to others as well! However, I do believe that the hate campaign against Hillary made the difference between Trump winning and losing. I could say the same about a couple of other factors as well, but that doesn't take responsibility off of 3rd parties.

blaming 3rd parties is a cop out. 3rd parties are allowed to exist and people have a right to a different option. if 3rd parties are forever relegated to "we'll vote for you, but only if we know x candidate is in the bag to win", they will never get the wheels moving. maybe what comes out of this is a bigger push towards an alternative. it took a long damn time, but if Jack Layton (Canadian federal NDP leader, for my american friends) hadn't died, I'm convinced he would have been PM.

BS is right; clinton didn't inspire. to be a leader at this level, you can't be just a good leader, you have to be able to project that quality. I always thought it was odd that the dem candidate this time was the failed one from last time.

Gonna have to disagree with you here. We have a 2 party system here, not proportional representation. The checks and balances are in the 3 branches, also represented by the 2 party system. Sure the occasional independent or libertarian slips through the cracks and finds a seat in Congress, but they usually end up finding their allegiances on one side of the aisle or the other. Voting 3rd party for President is a cop out. It does litte more than give the 3rd party voter the luxury of saying, "don't blame me, I didn't vote for so-and-so".

see: Duverger's law for additional reading

Yawn, it isn't a cop out. It is called a principled vote. Also, as I'm sure you read in the link you provided, "Duverger himself did not regard his principle as absolute. Instead, he suggested that plurality would act to delay the emergence of a new political force and would accelerate the elimination of a weakening force;[8] PR would have the opposite effect."

The article also talked about 3rd parties having the opportunity to gain prominence by exploiting an existing major party that is fractured down the middle over an issue. It could be argued that the current Republican party is pretty fractured, and an opportunity existed to make inroads. "A third party can enter the arena only if it can exploit the mistakes of a pre-existing major party, ultimately at that party's expense. For example, the political chaos in the United States immediately preceding the Civil War allowed the Republican Party to replace the Whig Party as the progressive half of the American political landscape. Loosely united on a platform of country-wide economic reform and federally funded industrialization, the decentralized Whig leadership failed to take a decisive stance on the slavery issue, effectively splitting the party along the Mason–Dixon line. Southern rural planters, initially attracted by the prospect of federal infrastructure and schools, aligned with the pro-slavery Democrats, while urban laborers and professionals in the northern states, threatened by the sudden shift in political and economic power and losing faith in the failing Whig candidates, flocked to the increasingly vocal anti-slavery Republican Party."

JC29856

Totally staged!
https://www.google.com/amp/www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/12/07/us-steel-wants-to-accelerate-investments-bring-back-jobs-ceo-says.html

jeffbr

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying why I think some blame lands on 3rd parties and 3rd party voters as well. I totally think there is a lot of blame to spread around to others as well! However, I do believe that the hate campaign against Hillary made the difference between Trump winning and losing. I could say the same about a couple of other factors as well, but that doesn't take responsibility off of 3rd parties.

blaming 3rd parties is a cop out. 3rd parties are allowed to exist and people have a right to a different option. if 3rd parties are forever relegated to "we'll vote for you, but only if we know x candidate is in the bag to win", they will never get the wheels moving. maybe what comes out of this is a bigger push towards an alternative. it took a long damn time, but if Jack Layton (Canadian federal NDP leader, for my american friends) hadn't died, I'm convinced he would have been PM.

BS is right; clinton didn't inspire. to be a leader at this level, you can't be just a good leader, you have to be able to project that quality. I always thought it was odd that the dem candidate this time was the failed one from last time.

I'm not blaming the existence of 3rd parties. I'm blaming their hate campaign against Clinton at the precise time they did it and the precise way they did it (and the bullshit they conjured too). I don't consider any "normal circumstances" at the moment. I do not think that 3rd parties should be forever relegated to an option only if a particular one of two parties has a win in the bag (as a Canadian, that thought actually seems ludicrous, and I'm pretty sure you know that I don't support a 2-party system). I am specifically talking about the threat of Donald Trump. I would never say or think what I am now if the circumstances weren't very abnormal. But they were. They were extremely abnormal circumstances, and that is why I think the blame that is there to spread around is spread around in an abnormal way too. I do not think of this in sweeping terms. My feelings are very precisely focused in on the absurdity and horror of Trump and the election that he was in, and the one where 3rd parties (and the two main parties) just completely screwed the pooch. The 3rd parties and their supporters had a hand to play in the absurdity and overall bullshit that was the 2016 election, and I'm not going to let them off the hook (not that they care - they are still riding high on their delicate egos I'm sure).

You're painting 3rd parties with a pretty broad brush. I don't recall a hate campaign coming from Johnson/Weld against Clinton. In fact, Governor Weld stepped on his dick a little bit when a month before the election: "Libertarian vice presidential hopeful Bill Weld said Friday that he's "not sure anybody is more qualified than Hillary Clinton to be president of the United States," the latest misstep in what's been a painful week for the third-party ticket." (http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/30/politics/bill-weld-hillary-clinton-qualified/)

Also from CNN a couple of days before the election (http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/06/politics/bill-weld-state-of-the-union-gary-johnson/):
"Libertarian vice presidential nominee Bill Weld once again stuck up for Hillary Clinton, just days before his third-party bid finally faces off against her at the polls.
"One of the issues in this campaign has been: Do you like the two-party monopoly? ... We don't," Weld said in an interview with CNN's Jake Tapper. "Having said all of that, I do see a big difference between the two other candidates."
Weld said he wanted the Libertarian Party to earn at least 5% of the popular vote in the general election and thus qualify for federal funding and increased ballot access. But he also made sure to hammer home his problems with Donald Trump and his deep-seated respect for Clinton.
He called Trump "totally unfit to be president" and said Clinton was "a perfectly reputable, professional, responsible candidate for president of the United States and deserves to be treated as such."
"Frankly, I think Mrs. Clinton has been receiving a pretty raw deal," Weld said."

CM189191

jeffbr said:

CM189191 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

BS44325 said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

jeffbr said:

PJ_Soul said:

InHiding80 said:

PJ_Soul said:

EM194007 said:

InHiding80 said:

EM194007 said:

JC29856 said:

Must see TV

https://youtu.be/VsoVYStL6gQ

Pot kettle black, trumpneck. You calling libs looney is like Amy Winehouse calling Rachel McAdams ugly. What's good for the goose...

First off don't call me anything Trump, I didn't vote for him or Hildabeast. Your just making yourself look just like the two idiot's in the video, thinking your better then everyone else, well, your sure are NOT, now get over it!. If it was the opposite, and two Trumpsters were harasing and threatening a Hildabeast supporter, I'd call them the Looney Right.

When did we loose are freedom of speech, you sure seem to act like we have with all your idiotic post.

*you're

And "you're" no better for lashing out at Stein voters like me for electing Trump.

Oh gee, thanks for the information, I didn't understand that a vote for Johnson was in fact a vote for Johnson.
I'm sure you actually do understand how 3rd party votes impacted this election.

Depends on where those votes were cast. My 3rd party vote had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of this election. None. Hillary got the electoral votes from my state. So neither my vote, nor my state helped elect Trump.

Yes, I understand how it works. The whole mindset surrounding the 3rd vote "campaign" at this particular time in history still applies though, IMO. I don't have any individuals in mind when I criticize that 3rd party "campaign". My disgust lies with the overall mindset, given the circumstances.

But 3rd party voters didn't lose the election for Hillary, nor did they win the election for Trump. Hillary's awful campaign failed to target voters in important states, and failed to bring out the numbers required. There were many, many registered voters who didn't vote. Perhaps they bear more responsibility than 3rd party voters, since they did absolutely nothing. But ultimately Trump won because Hillary can't run a campaign.

I personally think Trump won because of the hate campaign waged against Clinton. Some of the leaders of that campaign were 3rd parties and their voters.

It was not about the hate waged against Clinton but about the fact that she is just not likeable, flawed, and generally uninspiring. It is why she lost to Obama in 2008. The writing was on the wall but the entire democratic party establishment refused to acknowledge it.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying why I think some blame lands on 3rd parties and 3rd party voters as well. I totally think there is a lot of blame to spread around to others as well! However, I do believe that the hate campaign against Hillary made the difference between Trump winning and losing. I could say the same about a couple of other factors as well, but that doesn't take responsibility off of 3rd parties.

blaming 3rd parties is a cop out. 3rd parties are allowed to exist and people have a right to a different option. if 3rd parties are forever relegated to "we'll vote for you, but only if we know x candidate is in the bag to win", they will never get the wheels moving. maybe what comes out of this is a bigger push towards an alternative. it took a long damn time, but if Jack Layton (Canadian federal NDP leader, for my american friends) hadn't died, I'm convinced he would have been PM.

BS is right; clinton didn't inspire. to be a leader at this level, you can't be just a good leader, you have to be able to project that quality. I always thought it was odd that the dem candidate this time was the failed one from last time.

Gonna have to disagree with you here. We have a 2 party system here, not proportional representation. The checks and balances are in the 3 branches, also represented by the 2 party system. Sure the occasional independent or libertarian slips through the cracks and finds a seat in Congress, but they usually end up finding their allegiances on one side of the aisle or the other. Voting 3rd party for President is a cop out. It does litte more than give the 3rd party voter the luxury of saying, "don't blame me, I didn't vote for so-and-so".

see: Duverger's law for additional reading

Yawn, it isn't a cop out. It is called a principled vote. Also, as I'm sure you read in the link you provided, "Duverger himself did not regard his principle as absolute. Instead, he suggested that plurality would act to delay the emergence of a new political force and would accelerate the elimination of a weakening force;[8] PR would have the opposite effect."

The article also talked about 3rd parties having the opportunity to gain prominence by exploiting an existing major party that is fractured down the middle over an issue. It could be argued that the current Republican party is pretty fractured, and an opportunity existed to make inroads. "A third party can enter the arena only if it can exploit the mistakes of a pre-existing major party, ultimately at that party's expense. For example, the political chaos in the United States immediately preceding the Civil War allowed the Republican Party to replace the Whig Party as the progressive half of the American political landscape. Loosely united on a platform of country-wide economic reform and federally funded industrialization, the decentralized Whig leadership failed to take a decisive stance on the slavery issue, effectively splitting the party along the Mason–Dixon line. Southern rural planters, initially attracted by the prospect of federal infrastructure and schools, aligned with the pro-slavery Democrats, while urban laborers and professionals in the northern states, threatened by the sudden shift in political and economic power and losing faith in the failing Whig candidates, flocked to the increasingly vocal anti-slavery Republican Party."

I don't disagree with that.

Best case scenario: you have a 3rd party that replaces one of the 2 major parties. Then the displaced party would fall into irrelevance. And the 2 party status quo is maintained. That's not going to happen in a Presidential election. That's got to happen through a groundswell of 3rd party candidates displacing one of the majority parties at the county, state and federal levels before any 3rd party can put forth a serious campaign.

But there will never be a scenario where there are more than 2 majority parties represented in our government for an extended period of time. It's simply not structured or designed that way.

There are now two U.S. Senators (King and Sanders), and four major city Mayors. Hundreds of third-party officeholders exist at the local level (including those in nonpartisan positions who are affiliated with a third-party), including 146 Libertarian Party members[1] and 131 Green Party members.

Total number of elected offices: 537 (President, Vice President, 435 US House Members, 100 Senators). According to the Census data, there are more than 87,000 local and state governments constituting more than 511,000 offices.

Ballpark: 3rd parties hold 500 of the 500,000 elected positions in the US.
0.1%
That's a long way to go before anyone takes a 3rd party or their Presidential candidate seriously.

CM189191

JC29856 said:

Totally staged!
https://www.google.com/amp/www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/12/07/us-steel-wants-to-accelerate-investments-bring-back-jobs-ceo-says.html

US Steel must be angling for a handout

Congressional Republicans sucker punch American steel workers, scrapping 'Buy America' provision

PJ_Soul

That's true, it was actually a bunch of Johnson voters (many of which seemed to be confused Bernie supporters) who waged that war on social media, rather than the Libertarian party itself.