Dem Party
Comments
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End the two party system, and just have people run as individuals with ideas. I bet half the American voters would be in a frenzy because they wouldn't know who their guy/girl should be without the labels0
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See what I mean? Pointing fingers is classy. Real classy Benjs. You want to have a mature conversation or you want to fingerpointpoint. Which is it .benjs said:
Just like you're a victim of the wrath of the DNC - The Party you don't belong to yet which you put your faith in, in spite of evidence contrary to what you wish they were? No matter how many times you call a dog a cat, it's still a dog - and when it barks and you continue to say "good kitty", I'm at a loss for what to say.Free said:Everyone's a fucking victim, wah!
WTF. There's a reason for the song WMA.
"I've seen it all before,..
Bring it on cause I'm no victim"
What is it that you don't understand? Americans lost. Everyone contributed. Now let's get together to get this going again, because it's not gonna be the republican party, so the Democratic Party better pick up the slack.
Post edited by Free on0 -
Pointing fingers and pointing out hypocrisies are not the same thing.Free said:
See what I mean? Pointing fingers is classy. Real classy Benjs. They want to have a mature of him station or you want to think your point. Which is it .benjs said:
Just like you're a victim of the wrath of the DNC - The Party you don't belong to yet which you put your faith in, in spite of evidence contrary to what you wish they were? No matter how many times you call a dog a cat, it's still a dog - and when it barks and you continue to say "good kitty", I'm at a loss for what to say.Free said:Everyone's a fucking victim, wah!
WTF. There's a reason for the song WMA.
"I've seen it all before,..
Bring it on cause I'm no victim"'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
Right? How come you and I can understand this but 2-party members, and Canadians, can't?riley540 said:End the two party system, and just have people run as individuals with ideas. I bet half the American voters would be in a frenzy because they wouldn't know who their guy/girl should be without the labels
Down with status quo, seeking real soutions, which are found outside the corrupt two-party system, is what we need. Not running inside a hamster wheel, going nowhere.
But until then, the Democratic Party must do something, because wow, look at the Republican Party. Until we get a third-party in action, we have to rely on the Democratic Party to actually be Democratic.Post edited by Free on0 -
Free, I've implored you several times here to explain how you get the powerful to relinquish their power, and you have not given me an answer with a semblance of how that would occur. You also haven't given BS an answer of even a single member who would have the chops to make this dramatic structural change. You're welcome to keep accusing people of pointing fingers, but you've only identified the "what", and not the "how" of replacing the soul of an organization whose engine runs on corruption.Free said:
Right? How come you and I can understand this but 2-party members, and Canadians, can't?riley540 said:End the two party system, and just have people run as individuals with ideas. I bet half the American voters would be in a frenzy because they wouldn't know who their guy/girl should be without the labels
Down with status quo, seeking real soutions, which are found outside the corrupt two-party system, is what we need. Not running inside a hamster wheel, going nowhere.
But until then, the Democratic Party must do something!!
I'm an idealist in the sense that I can recognize corruption, that I don't want to tolerate corruption, and that I feel that things could run better with an allegiance to the people over money - but I'm a realist first. Who should exert pressure to change the DNC? What kind of pressure will the powerful respond to? With the recent election cycle showing that corruption and blatant (instead of masked) lies beget success, how do you sell this need for an about face? To reiterate: the most visibly corrupt and self-serving political administration just beat the Democrats in all levels of government. Be ashamed of the Democratic Party all you'd like, but the reality remains that a corrupt party lost to an even more corrupt party - so what does that tell you about how to succeed in politics?'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
Benjs, you and BS can keep bugging me about DNC chair, but I don't think you really want an answer. You guys just want to keep harping at me and besides, maybe I don't have a solution. Do you? What is your solution? Where would you start? You've been asking that question for months about "how you get the powerful to relinquish their power," and you know that there is no simple answer, which is why you keep asking it.
Like I asked you months ago, how do you get rid of gerrymandering? How do you get money out of politics? If You can answer that please, especially since you don't live and breathe what it's like to be a citizen here.
"A corrupt party lost to an even more corrupt party", that's right. Tell us what you would do to make things better.
And just to make you two happy. I used to like Ellison, but now I'm not so sure.
Post edited by Free on0 -
Was that so hard?Free said:Benjs, you and BS can keep bugging me about DNC chair, but I don't think you really want an answer. You guys just want to keep harping at me and besides, maybe I don't have a solution. Do you? What is your solution? Where would you start? You've been asking that question for months about "how you get the powerful to relinquish their power," and you know that there is no simple answer, which is why you keep asking it.
Like I asked you months ago, how do you get rid of gerrymandering? How do you get money out of politics? If You can answer that please, especially since you don't live and breathe what it's like to be a citizen here.
"A corrupt party lost to an even more corrupt party", that's right. Tell us what you would do to make things better.
And just to make you two happy. I used to like Ellison, but now I'm not so sure.0 -
" Who should exert pressure to change the DNC?" - Benjs
Who should exert power over Trump? Will the Dems impeach and when?Post edited by Free on0 -
Getting people to relinquish power and money would pretty much go against human nature. That is quite a challenge.BS44325 said:
Was that so hard?Free said:Benjs, you and BS can keep bugging me about DNC chair, but I don't think you really want an answer. You guys just want to keep harping at me and besides, maybe I don't have a solution. Do you? What is your solution? Where would you start? You've been asking that question for months about "how you get the powerful to relinquish their power," and you know that there is no simple answer, which is why you keep asking it.
Like I asked you months ago, how do you get rid of gerrymandering? How do you get money out of politics? If You can answer that please, especially since you don't live and breathe what it's like to be a citizen here.
"A corrupt party lost to an even more corrupt party", that's right. Tell us what you would do to make things better.
And just to make you two happy. I used to like Ellison, but now I'm not so sure.0 -
R's and D's will both be impeaching. Six months approximately.Free said:" Who should exert pressure to change the DNC?" - Benjs
Who should exert power over Trump? Will the Dems impeach and when?0 -
I don't know how to get rid of gerrymandering, nor how to get money out of politics. I don't have a solution, because I'm not looking for a solution, because the more that I think about it, the less I believe that there is a solution. I keep asking the question not because I doubt there's a simple answer, but because I doubt there's an answer. I'm sorry to take a defeatist attitude, but I perceive far too much rewarded corruption, too much populace complacency based on a collective psyche that appreciates staying in line and condemns critical thought.Free said:Benjs, you and BS can keep bugging me about DNC chair, but I don't think you really want an answer. You guys just want to keep harping at me and besides, maybe I don't have a solution. Do you? What is your solution? Where would you start? You've been asking that question for months about "how you get the powerful to relinquish their power," and you know that there is no simple answer, which is why you keep asking it.
Like I asked you months ago, how do you get rid of gerrymandering? How do you get money out of politics? If You can answer that please, especially since you don't live and breathe what it's like to be a citizen here.
"A corrupt party lost to an even more corrupt party", that's right. Tell us what you would do to make things better.
And just to make you two happy. I used to like Ellison, but now I'm not so sure.
The reason I ask you about how the powerful will relinquish their power for a restructuring, is because I believe that it is a critical step in changing of the guards, and I believe that without that answer, that restructuring is destined to fail. Of course I'm all for protests to drive change, but to hope that a protest will lead to the powerful accepting such radical and progressive change, is not realistic when the powerful reap the benefits of doing the wrong thing. Hope is not a plan, and in this case is not aligned with the reality of human nature.
Despite what you may think, I'm not a vindictive asshole who wants you to admit you're wrong, I'm an engaged and interested citizen trying to learn and teach. I will continue to play devil's advocate on the topic of bringing about change, until I hear something with a basis in logic.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
Benjs, I know you're ideological, as am I. But the big difference between you and me is that you lean cynical whereas I lean toward hope and positivity. And that's a character issue. You weren't at a march on Saturday clearly, because I've been hearing everywhere that that historic moment made citizens aware of their power and real hope and charge for the future.0
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Way to drop an insult...Free said:Benjs, I know you're ideological, as am I. But the big difference between you and me is that you lean cynical whereas I lean toward hope and positivity. And that's a character issue. You weren't at a march on Saturday clearly, because I've been hearing everywhere that that historic moment made citizens aware of their power and real hope and charge for the future.
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this is the funniest thing I have read here in a while.Free said:Benjs, I know you're ideological, as am I. But the big difference between you and me is that you lean cynical whereas I lean toward hope and positivity. And that's a character issue. You weren't at a march on Saturday clearly, because I've been hearing everywhere that that historic moment made citizens aware of their power and real hope and charge for the future.
By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
how is that pointing fingers? he's calling a spade a spade. you keep whining about the democratic party and all their supporters and how they screwed us all. talk about pointing fingers.Free said:
See what I mean? Pointing fingers is classy. Real classy Benjs. You want to have a mature conversation or you want to fingerpointpoint. Which is it .benjs said:
Just like you're a victim of the wrath of the DNC - The Party you don't belong to yet which you put your faith in, in spite of evidence contrary to what you wish they were? No matter how many times you call a dog a cat, it's still a dog - and when it barks and you continue to say "good kitty", I'm at a loss for what to say.Free said:Everyone's a fucking victim, wah!
WTF. There's a reason for the song WMA.
"I've seen it all before,..
Bring it on cause I'm no victim"
What is it that you don't understand? Americans lost. Everyone contributed. Now let's get together to get this going again, because it's not gonna be the republican party, so the Democratic Party better pick up the slack.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
Hope and positivity can be channeled to produce change, but there are steps in the middle that must be taken to reach that goal. I'm really glad that people feel hopeful now as a result of the march - the perception of potential for empowerment is the first step towards attaining that empowerment, but frankly that was the easiest part of the equation. The reason I'm fixated on how the powerful will relinquish their power is because it is unprecedented for them to do so unless their power is threatened. If the DNC continues to lose power at their current rate of decline, their members will still be set financially until their dying days. That fact, coupled with Blue states turning Red implying a trajectory against (not towards) a progressive agenda, diminish the scope and negative value of threat from public dissent.Free said:Benjs, I know you're ideological, as am I. But the big difference between you and me is that you lean cynical whereas I lean toward hope and positivity. And that's a character issue. You weren't at a march on Saturday clearly, because I've been hearing everywhere that that historic moment made citizens aware of their power and real hope and charge for the future.
I'm sorry you feel that my character is flawed, but I think you're mistaking cynicism for pragmatism. Just as a moving object will not change directions without an effective external force applied to it, neither will the DNC. You refuse to address what effective external force that may be. Protesters are external, but they are not effective if they do not add friction to the direction the party is attempting to head in. Your "high hopes, high expectations, no plan" math does not add up. And that's a logic issue.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
I didn't say you were flawed, I said you seem cynical.0
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Most people will take having a "character issue" to imply a flaw. In any case, cynics believe that people are inherently disingenuous, and I don't believe people calling for change are disingenuous whatsoever. Thus, I am not a cynic. I am logical, however, and the logic I presented which you haven't refuted in any meaningful way, suggests to me that I should be skeptical of the potential for change.Free said:I didn't say you were flawed, I said you seem cynical.
When protesters can successfully identify efforts which will lead to impact (and "protests will create change" isn't enough - the causality must be explained, along with the steps in the middle), then logic will dictate that I should be hopeful that people will put in those efforts. Until then, I might as well run down the streets screaming "Trump is mean" while cartwheeling naked except for underwear on my head. The results will be the same as sending emails to Nancy Pelosi asking if she'll pretty please progressively reform the DNC, and with it surrender the lobbyist dollars she pockets personally.
By the way - I'm still actively trying to come up with the answers to these questions I'm posing to you too. We're after the same thing, I'm just not going to be hopeful unless my hopefulness is aligned with my logic.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
Cynical.benjs said:
Most people will take having a "character issue" to imply a flaw. In any case, cynics believe that people are inherently disingenuous, and I don't believe people calling for change are disingenuous whatsoever. Thus, I am not a cynic. I am logical, however, and the logic I presented which you haven't refuted in any meaningful way, suggests to me that I should be skeptical of the potential for change.Free said:I didn't say you were flawed, I said you seem cynical.
When protesters can successfully identify efforts which will lead to impact (and "protests will create change" isn't enough - the causality must be explained, along with the steps in the middle), then logic will dictate that I should be hopeful that people will put in those efforts. Until then, I might as well run down the streets screaming "Trump is mean" while cartwheeling naked except for underwear on my head. The results will be the same as sending emails to Nancy Pelosi asking if she'll pretty please progressively reform the DNC, and with it surrender the lobbyist dollars she pockets personally.
By the way - I'm still actively trying to come up with the answers to these questions I'm posing to you too. We're after the same thing, I'm just not going to be hopeful unless my hopefulness is aligned with my logic.
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No, realistic.Free said:
Cynical.benjs said:
Most people will take having a "character issue" to imply a flaw. In any case, cynics believe that people are inherently disingenuous, and I don't believe people calling for change are disingenuous whatsoever. Thus, I am not a cynic. I am logical, however, and the logic I presented which you haven't refuted in any meaningful way, suggests to me that I should be skeptical of the potential for change.Free said:I didn't say you were flawed, I said you seem cynical.
When protesters can successfully identify efforts which will lead to impact (and "protests will create change" isn't enough - the causality must be explained, along with the steps in the middle), then logic will dictate that I should be hopeful that people will put in those efforts. Until then, I might as well run down the streets screaming "Trump is mean" while cartwheeling naked except for underwear on my head. The results will be the same as sending emails to Nancy Pelosi asking if she'll pretty please progressively reform the DNC, and with it surrender the lobbyist dollars she pockets personally.
By the way - I'm still actively trying to come up with the answers to these questions I'm posing to you too. We're after the same thing, I'm just not going to be hopeful unless my hopefulness is aligned with my logic.my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf0
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