Canadian Politics Redux

dignin

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Rona Ambrose is leaving federal politics!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rona-ambrose-conservative-mp-1.4116233?cid=

Maybe good news for Canada but not great news for Albertans. I would be surprised if she didn't run for the leader of new united right wing party here.

Oh, almost certainly.... I actually thought most Albertans would be happy about that though, you excluded. I guess all I'm going off of is social media, but it seems like most Albertans are super pro-right wing because of the overdependence on oil. Is that impression wrong?

We elected an NDP government so I wouldn't say we are super pro-right wing. There are a bunch of right wing nuts though. The majority of Albertans I would say are fiscally conservative but socially progressive. More progressive than the rest of Canada thinks.

HughFreakingDillon

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Rona Ambrose is leaving federal politics!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rona-ambrose-conservative-mp-1.4116233?cid=

Maybe good news for Canada but not great news for Albertans. I would be surprised if she didn't run for the leader of new united right wing party here.

Oh, almost certainly.... I actually thought most Albertans would be happy about that though, you excluded. I guess all I'm going off of is social media, but it seems like most Albertans are super pro-right wing because of the overdependence on oil. Is that impression wrong?

We elected an NDP government so I wouldn't say we are super pro-right wing. There are a bunch of right wing nuts though. The majority of Albertans I would say are fiscally conservative but socially progressive. More progressive than the rest of Canada thinks.

just don't ever say anything bad about "big bad oil" to anyone from alberta. you get tarred and feathered on the spot. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

Rona Ambrose is leaving federal politics!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rona-ambrose-conservative-mp-1.4116233?cid=

Maybe good news for Canada but not great news for Albertans. I would be surprised if she didn't run for the leader of new united right wing party here.

Oh, almost certainly.... I actually thought most Albertans would be happy about that though, you excluded. I guess all I'm going off of is social media, but it seems like most Albertans are super pro-right wing because of the overdependence on oil. Is that impression wrong?

We elected an NDP government so I wouldn't say we are super pro-right wing. There are a bunch of right wing nuts though. The majority of Albertans I would say are fiscally conservative but socially progressive. More progressive than the rest of Canada thinks.

just don't ever say anything bad about "big bad oil" to anyone from alberta. you get tarred and feathered on the spot. 

It's true. And they really hate us British Columbians for railing against all those new pipelines. I guess they don't understand that those pipelines will only really benefit Alberta, while BC just shoulders all the burdens.

dignin

I think you guys would be surprised if you came here and talked to Albertans on the ground. Judging by your comments you have a cartoonish idea of who we are. 

Also, economic prosperity in Alberta is not just good for Alberta, all Canadians benefit. But I'm sure you already know that.

PJ_Soul

dignin said:

I think you guys would be surprised if you came here and talked to Albertans on the ground. Judging by your comments you have a cartoonish idea of who we are. 

Also, economic prosperity in Alberta is not just good for Alberta, all Canadians benefit. But I'm sure you already know that.

It's not a cartoonish idea. It may be wrong, but not cartoonish. I am simply going off of how people are representing you on social media and in the news. If Albertans actually feel differently en masse, then someone should try and make sure their real views are heard better. They are the only ones who can try and ensure that they are properly represented in the court of public opinion.
The majority of British Columbians put our delicate environment far above Alberta's economic windfall. Sorry, but economic prosperity in Alberta isn't all THAT good for BC. Not when the HUGE majority of pipeline-related jobs would all be in Alberta, not BC. Again, BC will shoulder ALL the burdens, and benefit very little. Our main concern is, of course, our very delicate ecosystem and the unfathomable damage these pipelines can and will cause. Just the huge increase of oil tankers in our waters is enough for the majority of us to be against the pipelines. The majority of BCers place that before oil profits in AB, and quite justifiably. Those who care about money more than the environment have a piece of their souls missing IMHO.
I am also personally impacted by the pipelines, as the storage facility that the Kinder Morgan pipeline will run to, and that will double its capacity, is only about 1km from my house, and the new pipeline itself will run through protected lands, also right near me (the original plan would have actually seen my home demolished to make way for it - luckily the city negotiated its way out of that plan, much to the chagrin of Kinder Morgan). I have already had a Kinder Morgan pipeline accident within 2 blocks of my home, about 15 years ago now, where the line burst and destroyed homes and land in a residential neighborhood. The soil is still poisoned, the homes had to be torn down. I would prefer not to see another, bigger accident destroy my neighborhood.

HughFreakingDillon

dignin said:

I think you guys would be surprised if you came here and talked to Albertans on the ground. Judging by your comments you have a cartoonish idea of who we are. 

Also, economic prosperity in Alberta is not just good for Alberta, all Canadians benefit. But I'm sure you already know that.

no, not really. just speaking from my admittedly limited dealings with albertans. but the ones I have, are exactly as I described. 

however, I shouldn't have said "anyone". I should have said "many" or "some". my apologies. 

HughFreakingDillon

the thing I will say about alberta's current political perception, however, right or wrong, generalization or not, is kind of that of a western toronto; we want our profits to ourselves, but when we (alberta's jobs/economy) go in the tank, we demand your (everyone else's that we refused to share with) help. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

the thing I will say about alberta's current political perception, however, right or wrong, generalization or not, is kind of that of a western toronto; we want our profits to ourselves, but when we (alberta's jobs/economy) go in the tank, we demand your (everyone else's that we refused to share with) help. 

I totally agree. Many Albertans seem to have this attitude of entitlement in this context, while they couldn't care less about the damage that their economy/resource may cause in BC. It's easy to be pro-oil when you enjoy the direct benefits but really don't suffer any of the negative consequences.

dignin

I don't have time to get into the economics of oil and Alberta at the moment but I will later. I just wanted to say look at our leaders here in Alberta.... Nenshi, Ivenson and Notley. Your perceptions of Albertans are anecdotal and not based in fact.

And to say Albertans don't have any negative consequences from oil extraction is very naive at best. Like I said, when I have more time I will respond with more info.

PJ_Soul

dignin said:

I don't have time to get into the economics of oil and Alberta at the moment but I will later. I just wanted to say look at our leaders here in Alberta.... Nenshi, Ivenson and Notley. Your perceptions of Albertans are anecdotal and not based in fact.

And to say Albertans don't have any negative consequences from oil extraction is very naive at best. Like I said, when I have more time I will respond with more info.

I doubt any of us need you to inform us about the economics of oil in Canada.
I wasn't talking about the tar sands - I know they are super harmful to the environment.... but nobody really lives near them. As for the rest of where the pipelines will go in AB, the environment isn't anywhere near as sensitive as it is in BC, and AB doesn't have to deal with all the oil tankers, nor do any pipelines terminate in Albertan cities. It really isn't comparable at all.
Anyway, if you are an Albertan who is against the pipelines, please do enlighten us about that movement. I definitely haven't seen even a hint of it anywhere. All I have seen is that Alberta relies way too heavily on oil, and just about every Albertan I've heard from know that the province sinks or swims in relation to oil prices and oil exports.

dignin

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

I don't have time to get into the economics of oil and Alberta at the moment but I will later. I just wanted to say look at our leaders here in Alberta.... Nenshi, Ivenson and Notley. Your perceptions of Albertans are anecdotal and not based in fact.

And to say Albertans don't have any negative consequences from oil extraction is very naive at best. Like I said, when I have more time I will respond with more info.

I doubt any of us need you to inform us about the economics of oil in Canada.
I wasn't talking about the tar sands - I know they are super harmful to the environment.... but nobody really lives near them. As for the rest of where the pipelines will go in AB, the environment isn't anywhere near as sensitive as it is in BC, and AB doesn't have to deal with all the oil tankers, nor do any pipelines terminate in Albertan cities. It really isn't comparable at all.
Anyway, if you are an Albertan who is against the pipelines, please do enlighten us about that movement. I definitely haven't seen even a hint of it anywhere. All I have seen is that Alberta relies way too heavily on oil, and just about every Albertan I've heard from know that the province sinks or swims in relation to oil prices and oil exports.

Listen, I'm not going to tell you about the pulse of BC because I don't live there. I'm not from BC, I have a lot of family and friends that live in BC but I don't live there and interact with people from BC everyday. If I judged BC from what I see on the national news and from social media I would say you are all a bunch of dope smokers and dying from fentanyl overdoses on East Hastings street. But I'm not an ignorant asshole, so I know that BC is full of a diverse population of people with all kinds of varying opinions.

I don't really know where you are getting this idea that I am against pipelines. I never said which way I lean on that issue. I do know plenty of people here who are against them. The most active guy I know is Mike Hudema, he is from my hometown.

 https://twitter.com/MikeHudema?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

He is very active protesting pipelines and is the go to guy here when the media wants to get the other perspective. I know he has a lot of support here in Alberta (also a lot of people who hate his guts), and organizes and participates in many protests. But you wouldn't know that because you are not from here.

I also don't know where I said that Alberta's economy isn't heavily tied to the oil and gas industry. Where are you getting that from? Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's counterproductive.

Here is an article about tailings ponds. Ever here of them? 
https://www.thestar.com/news/atkinsonseries/2015/09/04/tailings-ponds-a-toxic-legacy-of-albertas-oilsands.html

We have so many abandoned contaminated well sights here in Alberta it would make you sick. 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-abandoned-well-meetings-1.4108164

They are just the tip of the iceberg of the environmental problems we have here.  Not to mention the friends I know who have died and been seriously injured working in the oil and gas industry. Now try and tell me that Albertans "really don't suffer any of the negative consequences".

Also, Alberta doesn't have a sensitive environment? That's a joke right? Have you even been to this province?

PJ_Soul

Sorry you're feeling so defensive.

HughFreakingDillon

Dignin said:I also don't know where I said that Alberta's economy isn't heavily tied to the oil and gas industry. Where are you getting that from? Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's counterproductive.

She didn't say you said that. Her quote:

PJ_Soul said: All I have seen is that Alberta relies way too heavily on oil, and just about every Albertan I've heard from know that the province sinks or swims in relation to oil prices and oil exports.

I don't think it's ignorant to comment on a region if that person has done enough research. you are only assuming her knowledge comes from the daily news and social media. you live in a town in alberta. how does that automatically make you more knowledgable on the whole of Alberta than someone else who hasn't lived in every region in Alberta?

and I believe when she was talking about "negative consequences", I believe she was referring to environmentally, not the people who have died as a result of their chosen profession. 

PJ_Soul

FWIW, I have also lived in Alberta and have been all over it, and yes, I know the impact of the oil sands, et al.

However, I did say that most of what I know of Albertan's attitudes (in general, obviously) about oil now is based on what I've seen in the news and on social media. No, I don't decipher Albertans in general through these sources - I don't need to. There are Albertans all over the place and I lived among them too. I have deciphered the general attitude of Albertans towards the oil industry from those sources though, and that includes the voices of those who represent you all. I know I have seen a LOT of anger coming from Albertans towards British Columbians who opposed the pipelines. They all like to pretend that we are too stupid to understand the economics of it, lol. I guess they can't comprehend that so many people would put environment before oil money.

I said IF you're against pipelines I'd be interested to hear your take. I didn't assume that you are. I guess you support them then, despite the heinous environmental impact you just sited, and despite the injuries and deaths?

dignin

HughFreakingDillon said:

Dignin said:I also don't know where I said that Alberta's economy isn't heavily tied to the oil and gas industry. Where are you getting that from? Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's counterproductive.

She didn't say you said that. Her quote:

PJ_Soul said: All I have seen is that Alberta relies way too heavily on oil, and just about every Albertan I've heard from know that the province sinks or swims in relation to oil prices and oil exports.

I don't think it's ignorant to comment on a region if that person has done enough research. you are only assuming her knowledge comes from the daily news and social media. you live in a town in alberta. how does that automatically make you more knowledgable on the whole of Alberta than someone else who hasn't lived in every region in Alberta?

and I believe when she was talking about "negative consequences", I believe she was referring to environmentally, not the people who have died as a result of their chosen profession. 

Did you read this comment?
 PJ Soul said "I guess all I'm going off of is social media, but it seems like most Albertans are super pro-right wing because of the overdependence on oil. Is that impression wrong?"

But thanks for keeping me honest Hugh!!

Awesome, you two have it all figured out. The guy that has lived in every major city in Alberta (not Red Deer though, that place is a shithole) and worked in the oil and gas industry on and off for almost 20 years has no idea what he is talking about.

Next time I want to know what Albertans are thinking I will be sure to come here and ask a person from Vancouver and Winnipeg. Then I will know all. I'm just going to go fill up my massive pickup truck, drive around aimlessly and think about ways I can just randomly dump barrels of oil into sensitive areas just to fuck shit up.

PJ_Soul

Digin, why do you seem to be taking this all so personally? We are offering our perspective. If anything, I would have thought you'd be interested to see how people in other places across Canada are perceiving the issue. Also, just because you live there and are ensconced, it doesn't mean you know all. Sometimes, the closer one is to an issue, the more biased and coloured your outlook might be. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case for you, but at the very least, Albertans may want to pay some attention to what other Canadians are thinking on the issue instead of just writing us all off as idiots who don't understand anything.

HughFreakingDillon

dignin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Dignin said:I also don't know where I said that Alberta's economy isn't heavily tied to the oil and gas industry. Where are you getting that from? Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's counterproductive.

She didn't say you said that. Her quote:

PJ_Soul said: All I have seen is that Alberta relies way too heavily on oil, and just about every Albertan I've heard from know that the province sinks or swims in relation to oil prices and oil exports.

I don't think it's ignorant to comment on a region if that person has done enough research. you are only assuming her knowledge comes from the daily news and social media. you live in a town in alberta. how does that automatically make you more knowledgable on the whole of Alberta than someone else who hasn't lived in every region in Alberta?

and I believe when she was talking about "negative consequences", I believe she was referring to environmentally, not the people who have died as a result of their chosen profession. 

Did you read this comment?
 PJ Soul said "I guess all I'm going off of is social media, but it seems like most Albertans are super pro-right wing because of the overdependence on oil. Is that impression wrong?"

But thanks for keeping me honest Hugh!!

Awesome, you two have it all figured out. The guy that has lived in every major city in Alberta (not Red Deer though, that place is a shithole) and worked in the oil and gas industry on and off for almost 20 years has no idea what he is talking about.

Next time I want to know what Albertans are thinking I will be sure to come here and ask a person from Vancouver and Winnipeg. Then I will know all. I'm just going to go fill up my massive pickup truck, drive around aimlessly and think about ways I can just randomly dump barrels of oil into sensitive areas just to fuck shit up.

have a nice day. 

rustneversleeps

some people know everything, eh dignin?

rustneversleeps

dignin said:

The Canadian extremists inside the Berkeley violence “So you guys might be wondering what a Canadian is doing here at a free speech American patriot rally,” she said. “But I’m here to give you a warning. Because as a denizen of the cold, northern wasteland that is Canada, nothing would please me more than to tell you guys that you will never meet the same fate that we did. "That your history of protecting freedom and individualism will keep you safe. Unlike in Canada’s system where we have a full-on assault on Western values. Where we have people being arrested for tweets. Where we have motions being passed in our government making it outlawed to criticize Islam. People are being persecuted for comedy and fined tens of thousands of dollars by social justice tribunals for the crime of making offensive jokes. I would love to tell you that America won’t end up like that. But that would be fake news.” http://www.nationalobserver.com/2017/04/26/news/canadian-connection-extremist-fringe-inside-berkeley-violence

interesting.

rustneversleeps

dignin said:

PJ_Soul said:

dignin said:

I don't have time to get into the economics of oil and Alberta at the moment but I will later. I just wanted to say look at our leaders here in Alberta.... Nenshi, Ivenson and Notley. Your perceptions of Albertans are anecdotal and not based in fact.

And to say Albertans don't have any negative consequences from oil extraction is very naive at best. Like I said, when I have more time I will respond with more info.

I doubt any of us need you to inform us about the economics of oil in Canada.
I wasn't talking about the tar sands - I know they are super harmful to the environment.... but nobody really lives near them. As for the rest of where the pipelines will go in AB, the environment isn't anywhere near as sensitive as it is in BC, and AB doesn't have to deal with all the oil tankers, nor do any pipelines terminate in Albertan cities. It really isn't comparable at all.
Anyway, if you are an Albertan who is against the pipelines, please do enlighten us about that movement. I definitely haven't seen even a hint of it anywhere. All I have seen is that Alberta relies way too heavily on oil, and just about every Albertan I've heard from know that the province sinks or swims in relation to oil prices and oil exports.

Listen, I'm not going to tell you about the pulse of BC because I don't live there. I'm not from BC, I have a lot of family and friends that live in BC but I don't live there and interact with people from BC everyday. If I judged BC from what I see on the national news and from social media I would say you are all a bunch of dope smokers and dying from fentanyl overdoses on East Hastings street. But I'm not an ignorant asshole, so I know that BC is full of a diverse population of people with all kinds of varying opinions.

I don't really know where you are getting this idea that I am against pipelines. I never said which way I lean on that issue. I do know plenty of people here who are against them. The most active guy I know is Mike Hudema, he is from my hometown.

 https://twitter.com/MikeHudema?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

He is very active protesting pipelines and is the go to guy here when the media wants to get the other perspective. I know he has a lot of support here in Alberta (also a lot of people who hate his guts), and organizes and participates in many protests. But you wouldn't know that because you are not from here.

I also don't know where I said that Alberta's economy isn't heavily tied to the oil and gas industry. Where are you getting that from? Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's counterproductive.

Here is an article about tailings ponds. Ever here of them? 
https://www.thestar.com/news/atkinsonseries/2015/09/04/tailings-ponds-a-toxic-legacy-of-albertas-oilsands.html

We have so many abandoned contaminated well sights here in Alberta it would make you sick. 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-abandoned-well-meetings-1.4108164

They are just the tip of the iceberg of the environmental problems we have here.  Not to mention the friends I know who have died and been seriously injured working in the oil and gas industry. Now try and tell me that Albertans "really don't suffer any of the negative consequences".

Also, Alberta doesn't have a sensitive environment? That's a joke right? Have you even been to this province?

ya, i thought BC was a total shithole. would never go back.