Canadian Politics Redux

oftenreading

You have to understand that the RB system isn't about punishment for something that has already happened, which is where some people get tripped up. It's about management of risk going forward. The people who most successfully manage risk and who are most likely to get a AD are those who work hard to reduce the risk from their illness, which includes being more active in their mental health care. Like I said yesterday, it's generally a transfer to civil mental health services.

And yes, civil mental health services can be patchy and inadequate, but its really unlikely that this guy is not going to get services going forward, given how high profile he is.

Final point - despite what the Harper government claimed, there is absolutely no relationship between the "brutality" of the index offence and the risk of recidivism. We have very good data on this. It makes good headlines for those who like the "tough on crime" stance but the changes that the Harper government brought into the NCRMD/Review Board system are meaningless in terms of reducing risk.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Hugh...

I remember at the time of the incident it was widely reported he had neglected his condition. I'm not so sure it was a case of complete helplessness.

And given the complete horror of his crime... I can understand why he'd feel intense guilt as well. He's seeking an absolute discharge at the moment though. This is a significant step from feeling responsible, shame or guilt for the incident.

We're talking about the decapitation, mutilation, and cannibalization of a young man he had never met. We're not talking about a 'typical' murder.

there's that old saying that says "crazy people don't know they are crazy, if you think you are, you aren't". And science supports that.

yes, he is seeking an absolute discharge, which, if he is well enough, and if there are checks and balances, which someone else stated there would be for someone like him, I'm ok with that. How do you think Li should reconcile being told repeatedly, and with merit, that he wasn't responsible for the crime, and that he is better now, with people thinking he should remain locked up? it is generally agreed upon that the justice system meets two criteria when administering justice:

a) punishment for the crime, and
b) rehabilitation for successful societal reintegration.

"a" is not applicable since he wasn't criminally responsible.
"b" has been completed.

given those two items, there is no reasonable reason to keep him locked up.

I cannot even fathom what McLean's family is going through. It must be utter hell. But you don't keep someone locked simply because of someone else's emotional response to the incident.

as PJSoul said, there is no justice in this situation, for Tim McLean and his family, or for Vince Li.

HughFreakingDillon

dignin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'm not sure about this election reform. it was one of his campaign promises. now he says the canadian people don't want it? where is his information coming from? sounds fishy.

It's not fishy, he downright lied to us. This is about staying in power, now that he's had it for awhile he doesn't want to give it up.

changing positions is not the same as lying, however, I don't know which one this is at this point. you could very well be correct.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Moving forward:

1. His history of mismanagement of his illness.
2. His potential for extreme violence.

Adds up to full time monitoring for me. Let's not trip over ourselves to grant levels of independence and eagerly display where we might have come to with regards to managing mental illness. This particular case demands heightened management and sensitivity for the public, not to mention the McLean family, in my mind.

dignin

HughFreakingDillon said:

dignin said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I'm not sure about this election reform. it was one of his campaign promises. now he says the canadian people don't want it? where is his information coming from? sounds fishy.

It's not fishy, he downright lied to us. This is about staying in power, now that he's had it for awhile he doesn't want to give it up.

changing positions is not the same as lying, however, I don't know which one this is at this point. you could very well be correct.

At the announcement yesterday their excuse for dropping electoral reform was a lie.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Moving forward:

1. His history of mismanagement of his illness.
2. His potential for extreme violence.

Adds up to full time monitoring for me. Let's not trip over ourselves to grant levels of independence and eagerly display where we might have come to with regards to managing mental illness. This particular case demands heightened management and sensitivity for the public, not to mention the McLean family, in my mind.

everyone with that type of illness "mismanages" it. he didn't know he was ill. what you are saying is virtually the same as blaming a cancer patient for not getting chemo prior to their diagnosis.

we aren't tripping ovr ourselves. pretty sure the professionals involved are well aware of the gravity of this situation, and are not making moves that are irresponsible. no one is pushing this through for the sake of claiming Li a success story of mental illness management.

I'm not sure what full time monitoring means to you. To me, it means whe oftenreading has stated, and that is sufficient for me.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Moving forward:

1. His history of mismanagement of his illness.
2. His potential for extreme violence.

Adds up to full time monitoring for me. Let's not trip over ourselves to grant levels of independence and eagerly display where we might have come to with regards to managing mental illness. This particular case demands heightened management and sensitivity for the public, not to mention the McLean family, in my mind.

everyone with that type of illness "mismanages" it. he didn't know he was ill. what you are saying is virtually the same as blaming a cancer patient for not getting chemo prior to their diagnosis.

we aren't tripping ovr ourselves. pretty sure the professionals involved are well aware of the gravity of this situation, and are not making moves that are irresponsible. no one is pushing this through for the sake of claiming Li a success story of mental illness management.

I'm not sure what full time monitoring means to you. To me, it means whe oftenreading has stated, and that is sufficient for me.

I know you have spoken to his feelings of guilt, but don't forget that this appeal for greater freedom isn't the first effort. It wasn't even a year removed from his decapitation, mutilation, cannibalization episode when Li, mental health, and Li advocates were pushing for opportunities in the community.

He is already currently afforded significant time and opportunities, but that's obviously not enough for him and a few others. When I say tripping over ourselves to do more... this is what I'm getting at: it was no time at all before people were pushing for conditional releases and now it's a push for a significant release.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Moving forward:

1. His history of mismanagement of his illness.
2. His potential for extreme violence.

Adds up to full time monitoring for me. Let's not trip over ourselves to grant levels of independence and eagerly display where we might have come to with regards to managing mental illness. This particular case demands heightened management and sensitivity for the public, not to mention the McLean family, in my mind.

everyone with that type of illness "mismanages" it. he didn't know he was ill. what you are saying is virtually the same as blaming a cancer patient for not getting chemo prior to their diagnosis.

we aren't tripping ovr ourselves. pretty sure the professionals involved are well aware of the gravity of this situation, and are not making moves that are irresponsible. no one is pushing this through for the sake of claiming Li a success story of mental illness management.

I'm not sure what full time monitoring means to you. To me, it means whe oftenreading has stated, and that is sufficient for me.

I know you have spoken to his feelings of guilt, but don't forget that this appeal for greater freedom isn't the first effort. It wasn't even a year removed from his decapitation, mutilation, cannibalization episode when Li, mental health, and Li advocates were pushing for opportunities in the community.

He is already currently afforded significant time and opportunities, but that's obviously not enough for him and a few others. When I say tripping over ourselves to do more... this is what I'm getting at: it was no time at all before people were pushing for conditional releases and now it's a push for a significant release.

I don't know if his appeals for more freedom were a direct request from him,or recommendations from his caregivers. I would lean towards the latter. I highly doubt they came from Li. His professionals deemed his progress significant, and as part of rehab process, it makes sense to recommend opporunities when they feel the patient is ready for them.

I understand the reluctance and even shock of the general public. When his original appeal for chaperoned walks in the city, I was initially taken aback by how early it was. But I trust his handlers know what they are doing. Do people make mistakes? absolutely. But I think it would be safe to assume that in this very delicate and high profile case, no stone has gone unturned.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Moving forward:

1. His history of mismanagement of his illness.
2. His potential for extreme violence.

Adds up to full time monitoring for me. Let's not trip over ourselves to grant levels of independence and eagerly display where we might have come to with regards to managing mental illness. This particular case demands heightened management and sensitivity for the public, not to mention the McLean family, in my mind.

everyone with that type of illness "mismanages" it. he didn't know he was ill. what you are saying is virtually the same as blaming a cancer patient for not getting chemo prior to their diagnosis.

we aren't tripping ovr ourselves. pretty sure the professionals involved are well aware of the gravity of this situation, and are not making moves that are irresponsible. no one is pushing this through for the sake of claiming Li a success story of mental illness management.

I'm not sure what full time monitoring means to you. To me, it means whe oftenreading has stated, and that is sufficient for me.

I know you have spoken to his feelings of guilt, but don't forget that this appeal for greater freedom isn't the first effort. It wasn't even a year removed from his decapitation, mutilation, cannibalization episode when Li, mental health, and Li advocates were pushing for opportunities in the community.

He is already currently afforded significant time and opportunities, but that's obviously not enough for him and a few others. When I say tripping over ourselves to do more... this is what I'm getting at: it was no time at all before people were pushing for conditional releases and now it's a push for a significant release.

I don't know if his appeals for more freedom were a direct request from him,or recommendations from his caregivers. I would lean towards the latter. I highly doubt they came from Li. His professionals deemed his progress significant, and as part of rehab process, it makes sense to recommend opporunities when they feel the patient is ready for them.

I understand the reluctance and even shock of the general public. When his original appeal for chaperoned walks in the city, I was initially taken aback by how early it was. But I trust his handlers know what they are doing. Do people make mistakes? absolutely. But I think it would be safe to assume that in this very delicate and high profile case, no stone has gone unturned.

I'm going to agree with much of this; however, I also feel that the magnitude of this case warranted extra sensitivity.

More time was necessary before people were ready to digest this for its reality. And given everything, Li wouldn't have been disserviced as a result.

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Moving forward:

1. His history of mismanagement of his illness.
2. His potential for extreme violence.

Adds up to full time monitoring for me. Let's not trip over ourselves to grant levels of independence and eagerly display where we might have come to with regards to managing mental illness. This particular case demands heightened management and sensitivity for the public, not to mention the McLean family, in my mind.

everyone with that type of illness "mismanages" it. he didn't know he was ill. what you are saying is virtually the same as blaming a cancer patient for not getting chemo prior to their diagnosis.

we aren't tripping ovr ourselves. pretty sure the professionals involved are well aware of the gravity of this situation, and are not making moves that are irresponsible. no one is pushing this through for the sake of claiming Li a success story of mental illness management.

I'm not sure what full time monitoring means to you. To me, it means whe oftenreading has stated, and that is sufficient for me.

Many people find it impossible to really "get" mental illness. I think unless someone actually experiences it on some level themselves, they just can't understand how out of control things really are for the mentally ill. Every single person I know who has experienced some form of mental illness (mostly depression and/or anxiety and PTSD (something that I have suffered from), although I've known a few with even more serious illnesses) have said that they had NO idea what mental illness was all about until they experienced it themselves. They thought it was somehow, on some level, within a person's control. Like if they just use enough will power, they can overcome the worst of it, i.e. "manage" it. Well, that just isn't the case for most people, especially not when it comes to very severe mental illness.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Moving forward:

1. His history of mismanagement of his illness.
2. His potential for extreme violence.

Adds up to full time monitoring for me. Let's not trip over ourselves to grant levels of independence and eagerly display where we might have come to with regards to managing mental illness. This particular case demands heightened management and sensitivity for the public, not to mention the McLean family, in my mind.

everyone with that type of illness "mismanages" it. he didn't know he was ill. what you are saying is virtually the same as blaming a cancer patient for not getting chemo prior to their diagnosis.

we aren't tripping ovr ourselves. pretty sure the professionals involved are well aware of the gravity of this situation, and are not making moves that are irresponsible. no one is pushing this through for the sake of claiming Li a success story of mental illness management.

I'm not sure what full time monitoring means to you. To me, it means whe oftenreading has stated, and that is sufficient for me.

Many people find it impossible to really "get" mental illness. I think unless someone actually experiences it on some level themselves, they just can't understand how out of control things really are for the mentally ill. Every single person I know who has experienced some form of mental illness (mostly depression and/or anxiety and PTSD (something that I have suffered from), although I've known a few with even more serious illnesses) have said that they had NO idea what mental illness was all about until they experienced it themselves. They thought it was somehow, on some level, within a person's control. Like if they just use enough will power, they can overcome the worst of it, i.e. "manage" it. Well, that just isn't the case for most people, especially not when it comes to very severe mental illness.

and I can understand that as well. having gone through a pretty significant mental break myself 16 years ago, and still not getting help for quite some time after that, because I thought I'd get locked up if I did sought help. There was even a point where I had something called "instrusive thoughts". I won't go into the specifics of what they were, but let's just say I very seriously considered taking myself out to protect my family and society in general. I found out later I wasn't crazy, but my anxiety had taken my brain to such a point where I was having these insane thoughts (most people have them, but their brain is wired in such a way that they don't even notice them, or forget them as quickly as they appear, but people in my case OBSESS about them), and even though i was in complete control of them, I didn't know that at the time.

anyway, this is why I have some understanding when it comes to Li. his crime was horrific. more horrific than I ever thought would happen in real life, not to mention so close to where I live. reading about it actually caused me so much anxiety I had a lot of issues functioning for a long time. it was a precursor to my relapse.

anyway, I sincerely hope that all the pieces are in place for his successful reintegration.

polaris_x

electoral reform gives us the best chance to ever avoid a trump situation ... i know for a fact - that many of my progressive friends voted for him because of just this one item ... knowing the liberals weren't going to move the needle on any other major progressive issue (primarily environment) - this was something that would at least give us the foundation for the best governance moving forward ... objectively, he lied because of a) who he put in the portfolio to begin with and b) how the committee was run and reported on afterwards ...

PJfanwillneverleave1

^^^
Having said that, how do the many of your progressive friends feel about this latest event.

polaris_x

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^
Having said that, how do the many of your progressive friends feel about this latest event.

any semblance of hope was dashed with the saudi arms deal and then the approval of the pipelines ... the liberals got a lot of strategic voting help last election ... they won't get the same number the next election ... and if he doesn't pass this electoral reform we could see that fucking asshole o'leary as our next pm ...

PJfanwillneverleave1

TB,
Get your facts straight before debating on AMT.
His name is Will Baker now and he will be fine. Your liberal heart should give him a chance.
Peace
He was later found not criminally responsible (NCR) and has since changed his name to Will Baker.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/ambrose-presses-trudeau-on-greyhound-attacker/ar-AAmIeN2?li=AAacUQk&ocid=spartandhp

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

TB,
Get your facts straight before debating on AMT.
His name is Will Baker now and he will be fine. Your liberal heart should give him a chance.
Peace
He was later found not criminally responsible (NCR) and has since changed his name to Will Baker.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/ambrose-presses-trudeau-on-greyhound-attacker/ar-AAmIeN2?li=AAacUQk&ocid=spartandhp

Yah I know that piece. That's what people do after they perform atrocities. They change their names.

A serial murderer in our area did the same thing. He also got married. Found God. And keeps applying for release every two years to which the survivors must protest.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

TB,
Get your facts straight before debating on AMT.
His name is Will Baker now and he will be fine. Your liberal heart should give him a chance.
Peace
He was later found not criminally responsible (NCR) and has since changed his name to Will Baker.
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/ambrose-presses-trudeau-on-greyhound-attacker/ar-AAmIeN2?li=AAacUQk&ocid=spartandhp

Yah I know that piece. That's what people do after they perform atrocities. They change their names.

A serial murderer in our area did the same thing. He also got married. Found God. And keeps applying for release every two years to which the survivors must protest.

he was most likely advised to do so for his own safety. I doubt it was his idea. and I don't really understand what the point of all of it is if it's fair game for the press to tell everyone his new name anyway.

PJfanwillneverleave1

Finally our politics are about to become interesting for awhile.
We are going to be hearing a lot more from him and I am certain he will win the leadership.
https://www.facebook.com/kevinolearytv/posts/1340904859307344

Open Letter to the Premier of Nova Scotia
Dear Premier McNeil,
This past weekend I was in Halifax and met with hundreds of people from across Atlantic Canada. I must say, I had a wonderful time speaking to Nova Scotians. I got the strong sense, however, that you haven’t listened to them for a long time.
Person after person told me the same thing – that they are worried about their local economy, how their friends or family members are struggling to find work, and the province is drifting in the wrong direction.
Maybe you haven’t had a chance to get out of your office and talk with your voters recently? Thank goodness you have me. Let me try to explain the issue to you because you don’t seem to get it.
Premier, your province has some of the most abundant resources in the country. Fishing, forestry, farming, natural gas – these are the key ingredients for economic success. Why isn’t your economy flourishing? When you have a land rich in resources and you do not use them for the benefit of the people, that really bothers me.
Your province has some of the highest tax rates in the country, and yet also one of the lowest economic outputs. Do you think maybe those two things are related? I know, I know, it’s not your fault. When I talk to Liberal politicians, it never is. But you can still do something about it.
I am promising all Canadians that 3% GDP growth will be my primary mandate when I take over in Ottawa in 2019. In order to achieve that, I need Atlantic Canada become an economic powerhouse. This will happen. Because you have the power to supercharge your economy through a real focus on resource development.
For instance, let’s look at natural gas: you have effectively put a moratorium in place on extraction. That’s crazy – it’s gotta go. The concerns people had years ago have all been solved by advanced extraction technologies. The science has made this safe, and we must get extraction going. There are 1,500 jobs for Nova Scotians at stake. To that end, you must allow pilot projects in communities that wish to avail themselves of the bountiful on-land resources and significant royalties.
As for off-shore – this is a vastly underdeveloped area because your tax policies are so punitive. The high bidding fees for exploration make it seem like you are more interested in exploration fees than royalty revenues from production. That’s so backwards, I’m sorry I can’t allow this to go on. Sir, you can do better. You must do better.
Your province has so much economic potential. You just need to unleash it.
I recently joined the Leadership Race for the Conservative Party of Canada. Fortunately, I reach millions of Canadians each week through the media, and I have promised all of them that I will shine the light on mediocrity and incompetence in government when I see it.
So, I am putting you on notice. It’s time you start doing a better job for the people in Nova Scotia. If you don’t? Well you can ask your friend Kathleen Wynne what happened to her poll numbers when I started writing letters.
Sincerely,
Kevin O’Leary
CPC Leadership Candidate

HughFreakingDillon

he is such an asshole.

polaris_x

liberals could have ensured we would never see an ahole conservative PM ever again ... but as usual - they punted it ...