Canadian Politics Redux

DarthMaeglin

I clearly stated it was a column,  which is essentially entirely opinion.  And that's how I read his column,  which has been his focus for years,  after he hung up his journalists' hat.

Maybe that's part of what adds to the conflict,  people either can't tell or don't care about the difference between an article and a column. When the author's name precedes the headline,  that's a big clue. Am I guilty of posting columns?  Yes, oftentimes the writer is expressing a point far better than I could (I honestly can't see a problem with that,  given that I will generally label it as such).

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Rex Murphy’s last column, a good one in my opinion (and not just because it’s critical of Trudeau).

https://torontosun.com/opinion/rex-murphy-trudeau-faced-an-essential-moral-test-after-oct-7-he-failed-it/wcm/6a53e507-3296-4b27-92eb-5155e5b67ed6

You have your opinion... good on ya.

Mine is that this column by 'journalist' Rex Murphy is like chum for the Fox News loving propaganda seeking right wing whiners. Full of bias, assumptions, and salacious innuendo. 

Criticizing the PM of Canada for not supporting Israel while they commit genocide is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a 'journalist' write. It's mind boggling that you think this is a good criticism of Trudeau. 

What Rex (and perhaps yourself) doesn't understand here is that during conflict... countries, politicians, and people (campus heroes) do not need to choose a side and stick with it. 

What Hamas did is putrid and horrific. 

What Israel is now doing in response is putrid and horrific. 

In reading that BS article, Rex seems to want his readers to focus primarily on two things:  Hamas killed and raped people without mercy during and after October 7th.  And Justin Trudeau has failed for not fully supporting Israel. 

Darth... any chance you want to take a stab at a fairly glaring omission from this article?  Floor is yours, take a guess at what Rex is unsurprisingly omitting from his article. For your sake, I hope you know what that omission is. 

Then ask yourself.... if you know and understand that extremely factual and real thing that Rex is omitting from his article... ask yourself....  'is there ANY chance, that could be a reason why Trudeau isn't putting his full support behind Israel? And perhaps.... what is causing protests across our country?'   Let's see if you can admit and cite what Rex failed to do here. Put it in words here. 

While you're at it.. let me help you and Rex out a bit.  He asked "Where was the denunciation of Hamas from Trudeau?"  Answer:  Everywhere. From interviews to the House of Commons to official statements. That's where it was. Unfortunately, you wouldn't know that if you read Rex Murphy. 

Honestly... do you honestly read this stuff and believe it? If you can't smell the burning stench of this man's bogus and absolutely harmful propaganda... I can't help you. You are being hoodwinked. Bullshitted. Manipulated. There is zero denying that after reading this article that you posted and are celebrating here. I hope for you and those like you that you someday learn that drinking information from the same dirty fountain.. will poison your brain. 

Trudeau is not good for Canada.  And this article by Rex Murphy... is not good for Canada. See.. two things can be true at the same time. 

This guy was like the Jack Edwards of journalism.  If this was his last column.. what a shitty legacy he left. 

I want to use a separate post to address Israel and Gaza.

I presume you're referring to Israel's military actions in response to a terrorist slaughter. Thus far there haven't been any reports of clear war crimes as I understand.  Obviously pains should be taken to protect civilians in a war zone,  but options become extremely limited when the enemy chooses to mingle with the noncombatants. It seems that the Israeli army is doing what it can to not intentionally target civilians. 

How has Canada reacted? They've equated both sides, often evidenced in funding announcements. Speaking of funding, strong evidence was presented of complicity in a terrorist attack by several members of a UN aid organization, among many other allegations.  We rightly suspended funding for that organization (just after making a quarterly donation unfortunately), then resumed funding in time to make the next quarterly payment.

How about the NDP motion,  supported by many keffiyeh-wearing Liberals,  that focused as much on Israel as it did Hamas? I guess we got lucky that China or Russia didn't take us to court over our response to 9/11?

I think you can tell I stand on the side that didn't commit an unprovoked attack on a music festival,  and I will be unapologetic for doing so.

And don't worry about being harsh,  it's an issue that's (rightly) carries a lot of emotion on all sides.

HughFreakingDillon

no evidence of war crimes in gaza? you can't be serious. bombing hospitals. not taking any precautions not to kill civilians. shutting off water supply. I could go on. JFC

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Rex Murphy’s last column, a good one in my opinion (and not just because it’s critical of Trudeau).

https://torontosun.com/opinion/rex-murphy-trudeau-faced-an-essential-moral-test-after-oct-7-he-failed-it/wcm/6a53e507-3296-4b27-92eb-5155e5b67ed6

You have your opinion... good on ya.

Mine is that this column by 'journalist' Rex Murphy is like chum for the Fox News loving propaganda seeking right wing whiners. Full of bias, assumptions, and salacious innuendo. 

Criticizing the PM of Canada for not supporting Israel while they commit genocide is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a 'journalist' write. It's mind boggling that you think this is a good criticism of Trudeau. 

What Rex (and perhaps yourself) doesn't understand here is that during conflict... countries, politicians, and people (campus heroes) do not need to choose a side and stick with it. 

What Hamas did is putrid and horrific. 

What Israel is now doing in response is putrid and horrific. 

In reading that BS article, Rex seems to want his readers to focus primarily on two things:  Hamas killed and raped people without mercy during and after October 7th.  And Justin Trudeau has failed for not fully supporting Israel. 

Darth... any chance you want to take a stab at a fairly glaring omission from this article?  Floor is yours, take a guess at what Rex is unsurprisingly omitting from his article. For your sake, I hope you know what that omission is. 

Then ask yourself.... if you know and understand that extremely factual and real thing that Rex is omitting from his article... ask yourself....  'is there ANY chance, that could be a reason why Trudeau isn't putting his full support behind Israel? And perhaps.... what is causing protests across our country?'   Let's see if you can admit and cite what Rex failed to do here. Put it in words here. 

While you're at it.. let me help you and Rex out a bit.  He asked "Where was the denunciation of Hamas from Trudeau?"  Answer:  Everywhere. From interviews to the House of Commons to official statements. That's where it was. Unfortunately, you wouldn't know that if you read Rex Murphy. 

Honestly... do you honestly read this stuff and believe it? If you can't smell the burning stench of this man's bogus and absolutely harmful propaganda... I can't help you. You are being hoodwinked. Bullshitted. Manipulated. There is zero denying that after reading this article that you posted and are celebrating here. I hope for you and those like you that you someday learn that drinking information from the same dirty fountain.. will poison your brain. 

Trudeau is not good for Canada.  And this article by Rex Murphy... is not good for Canada. See.. two things can be true at the same time. 

This guy was like the Jack Edwards of journalism.  If this was his last column.. what a shitty legacy he left. 

I want to use a separate post to address Israel and Gaza.

I presume you're referring to Israel's military actions in response to a terrorist slaughter. Thus far there haven't been any reports of clear war crimes as I understand.  Obviously pains should be taken to protect civilians in a war zone,  but options become extremely limited when the enemy chooses to mingle with the noncombatants. It seems that the Israeli army is doing what it can to not intentionally target civilians. 

How has Canada reacted? They've equated both sides, often evidenced in funding announcements. Speaking of funding, strong evidence was presented of complicity in a terrorist attack by several members of a UN aid organization, among many other allegations.  We rightly suspended funding for that organization (just after making a quarterly donation unfortunately), then resumed funding in time to make the next quarterly payment.

How about the NDP motion,  supported by many keffiyeh-wearing Liberals,  that focused as much on Israel as it did Hamas? I guess we got lucky that China or Russia didn't take us to court over our response to 9/11?

I think you can tell I stand on the side that didn't commit an unprovoked attack on a music festival,  and I will be unapologetic for doing so.

And don't worry about being harsh,  it's an issue that's (rightly) carries a lot of emotion on all sides.

13500 children killed in Gaza.  That's the omission I was looking for.  That's what Rex and yourself are conveniently leaving out. 

By the way... do you know/understand the difference between a terrorist assault and a military action?  As in... if Hamas bombed a hospital is that the same as if our Canadian Forces bombed a hospital?  No. 

A response... must be a controlled and responsible response. Apply this same logic to Canadian law if you will.  Someone punches you in the face... are you allowed to then bludgeon them with a baseball bat?  The answer is no. 

 

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

Rex Murphy’s last column, a good one in my opinion (and not just because it’s critical of Trudeau).

https://torontosun.com/opinion/rex-murphy-trudeau-faced-an-essential-moral-test-after-oct-7-he-failed-it/wcm/6a53e507-3296-4b27-92eb-5155e5b67ed6

You have your opinion... good on ya.

Mine is that this column by 'journalist' Rex Murphy is like chum for the Fox News loving propaganda seeking right wing whiners. Full of bias, assumptions, and salacious innuendo. 

Criticizing the PM of Canada for not supporting Israel while they commit genocide is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a 'journalist' write. It's mind boggling that you think this is a good criticism of Trudeau. 

What Rex (and perhaps yourself) doesn't understand here is that during conflict... countries, politicians, and people (campus heroes) do not need to choose a side and stick with it. 

What Hamas did is putrid and horrific. 

What Israel is now doing in response is putrid and horrific. 

In reading that BS article, Rex seems to want his readers to focus primarily on two things:  Hamas killed and raped people without mercy during and after October 7th.  And Justin Trudeau has failed for not fully supporting Israel. 

Darth... any chance you want to take a stab at a fairly glaring omission from this article?  Floor is yours, take a guess at what Rex is unsurprisingly omitting from his article. For your sake, I hope you know what that omission is. 

Then ask yourself.... if you know and understand that extremely factual and real thing that Rex is omitting from his article... ask yourself....  'is there ANY chance, that could be a reason why Trudeau isn't putting his full support behind Israel? And perhaps.... what is causing protests across our country?'   Let's see if you can admit and cite what Rex failed to do here. Put it in words here. 

While you're at it.. let me help you and Rex out a bit.  He asked "Where was the denunciation of Hamas from Trudeau?"  Answer:  Everywhere. From interviews to the House of Commons to official statements. That's where it was. Unfortunately, you wouldn't know that if you read Rex Murphy. 

Honestly... do you honestly read this stuff and believe it? If you can't smell the burning stench of this man's bogus and absolutely harmful propaganda... I can't help you. You are being hoodwinked. Bullshitted. Manipulated. There is zero denying that after reading this article that you posted and are celebrating here. I hope for you and those like you that you someday learn that drinking information from the same dirty fountain.. will poison your brain. 

Trudeau is not good for Canada.  And this article by Rex Murphy... is not good for Canada. See.. two things can be true at the same time. 

This guy was like the Jack Edwards of journalism.  If this was his last column.. what a shitty legacy he left. 

I want to use a separate post to address Israel and Gaza.

I presume you're referring to Israel's military actions in response to a terrorist slaughter. Thus far there haven't been any reports of clear war crimes as I understand.  Obviously pains should be taken to protect civilians in a war zone,  but options become extremely limited when the enemy chooses to mingle with the noncombatants. It seems that the Israeli army is doing what it can to not intentionally target civilians. 

How has Canada reacted? They've equated both sides, often evidenced in funding announcements. Speaking of funding, strong evidence was presented of complicity in a terrorist attack by several members of a UN aid organization, among many other allegations.  We rightly suspended funding for that organization (just after making a quarterly donation unfortunately), then resumed funding in time to make the next quarterly payment.

How about the NDP motion,  supported by many keffiyeh-wearing Liberals,  that focused as much on Israel as it did Hamas? I guess we got lucky that China or Russia didn't take us to court over our response to 9/11?

I think you can tell I stand on the side that didn't commit an unprovoked attack on a music festival,  and I will be unapologetic for doing so.

And don't worry about being harsh,  it's an issue that's (rightly) carries a lot of emotion on all sides.

13500 children killed in Gaza.  That's the omission I was looking for.  That's what Rex and yourself are conveniently leaving out. 

By the way... do you know/understand the difference between a terrorist assault and a military action?  As in... if Hamas bombed a hospital is that the same as if our Canadian Forces bombed a hospital?  No. 

A response... must be a controlled and responsible response. Apply this same logic to Canadian law if you will.  Someone punches you in the face... are you allowed to then bludgeon them with a baseball bat?  The answer is no. 

 

I believe using civilian shields as Hamas does is a war crime, so we seem to be getting into chicken and egg territory, Israel only strikes hospitals because they have actionable intelligence (I’m admittedly presuming) that Hamas is operating on the grounds (or under it).

In your example at the end, the person punching me has clearly stated that they will continue punching me in the face until I’m dead (read Hamas’ mission statement). I honestly don’t really know what the appropriate response is, but I think I’d lean towards a strong response as we’re seeing.

One thing that would end that war quickly is if the presumably innocent and uncomplicit people of Gaza turned Hamas out into the streets to the Israeli troops. Will that happen? Likely not, for the same reason my uncle’s father served in the Austrian army during WWII, a gun is essentially pointed at all their heads, and I won’t actually blame them for that.

DarthMaeglin

I didn’t address the casualty numbers, apologies. As I understand it the only source for numbers out of Gaza is a group that answers to Hamas, and therefore those numbers can’t be relied on.

Which is not to say that I don’t think a large number of children and other civilians have been killed and that that is a tragedy. It is terrible but we know that it’s the civilians that have generally suffered the most in times of war. That probably sounds heartless to many, but it’s essentially the facts of war, we’re beyond incredibly lucky to have grown up in a country like ours.

Two points, one, if Hamas hadn’t started out by hiding behind civilians then there might be fewer civilian casualties. Two, if Hamas hadn’t broken a ceasefire and committed a massacre (which, by the way, where are the calls to bring those individuals to justice?), then the civilian casualties would absolutely be greatly reduced.

Parksy

DarthMaeglin said:

I didn’t address the casualty numbers, apologies. As I understand it the only source for numbers out of Gaza is a group that answers to Hamas, and therefore those numbers can’t be relied on.

Which is not to say that I don’t think a large number of children and other civilians have been killed and that that is a tragedy. It is terrible but we know that it’s the civilians that have generally suffered the most in times of war. That probably sounds heartless to many, but it’s essentially the facts of war, we’re beyond incredibly lucky to have grown up in a country like ours.

Two points, one, if Hamas hadn’t started out by hiding behind civilians then there might be fewer civilian casualties. Two, if Hamas hadn’t broken a ceasefire and committed a massacre (which, by the way, where are the calls to bring those individuals to justice?), then the civilian casualties would absolutely be greatly reduced.

The best way I can say this... is to look at it from a local point of view. Forget Hamas / Israel.. break it down into things we locally understand. 

Organized crime. If we had a group of organized underground criminal actors in Toronto say... and they engaged in drug dealing, murder for hire, human trafficking, rape.. .you name it....  RCMP and TPS and OPP are obviously looking for them. They, and the public want them brought to justice. 

The problem is.. the police (mostly) engage within the boundaries of law going against a group that does not. 

So taking that example for what it's worth.... let's say the police learned where four of the crime bosses were and one of their criminal hideouts were... and in an attempt to dismantle the crime ring... completely bombed the neighborhood they were in because they didn't want to risk a more stealth mission within the neighborhood.  Right? 

In doing so, they killed the crime bosses and some crooks, took out a drug lab or two, essentially made a good dent in their operation.  The collateral damage was 1000 kids dead, 3200 adults dead, 7000 wounded. Houses, businesses, a school, and a hospital completely destroyed.  So imagine that playing out. How do you think the majority of the public would react to that? And do you think it would be acceptable here in Canada?  

Likely not. And there are a couple factors here... one of which I think plays huge with Israel. 

I expect terrorists to act like terrorists the same way I expect crooks to act like crooks.  As soon as a state (backed by the largest military in the world) begins acting in the same way... I reckon it will only breed more and more terrorists. 

With regards to what you're saying about facts and what not... and taking a line from Ed;  "arrested the press, no one knows what happened next." 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/20/media/israel-journalists-killed-questions/index.html

IDF maintains a good hold on what's happening over there. Media is censored. And now, journalists are being gunned down. Not arrested, killed. 

These stories are backed up by Amnesty International and the UN.  The UN by the way... just passed a vote to recognize Palestine as a state. I think 146-ish yes 9-no 25-abstain.  Of the 146 yes votes.. two were from G7 countries. 

No one is saying what Hamas did, have been doing, and are likely going to continue to do is good in any way. But two wrong's most assuredly don't make a right. 

DarthMaeglin

Parksy said:

DarthMaeglin said:

I didn’t address the casualty numbers, apologies. As I understand it the only source for numbers out of Gaza is a group that answers to Hamas, and therefore those numbers can’t be relied on.

Which is not to say that I don’t think a large number of children and other civilians have been killed and that that is a tragedy. It is terrible but we know that it’s the civilians that have generally suffered the most in times of war. That probably sounds heartless to many, but it’s essentially the facts of war, we’re beyond incredibly lucky to have grown up in a country like ours.

Two points, one, if Hamas hadn’t started out by hiding behind civilians then there might be fewer civilian casualties. Two, if Hamas hadn’t broken a ceasefire and committed a massacre (which, by the way, where are the calls to bring those individuals to justice?), then the civilian casualties would absolutely be greatly reduced.

The best way I can say this... is to look at it from a local point of view. Forget Hamas / Israel.. break it down into things we locally understand. 

Organized crime. If we had a group of organized underground criminal actors in Toronto say... and they engaged in drug dealing, murder for hire, human trafficking, rape.. .you name it....  RCMP and TPS and OPP are obviously looking for them. They, and the public want them brought to justice. 

The problem is.. the police (mostly) engage within the boundaries of law going against a group that does not. 

So taking that example for what it's worth.... let's say the police learned where four of the crime bosses were and one of their criminal hideouts were... and in an attempt to dismantle the crime ring... completely bombed the neighborhood they were in because they didn't want to risk a more stealth mission within the neighborhood.  Right? 

In doing so, they killed the crime bosses and some crooks, took out a drug lab or two, essentially made a good dent in their operation.  The collateral damage was 1000 kids dead, 3200 adults dead, 7000 wounded. Houses, businesses, a school, and a hospital completely destroyed.  So imagine that playing out. How do you think the majority of the public would react to that? And do you think it would be acceptable here in Canada?  

Likely not. And there are a couple factors here... one of which I think plays huge with Israel. 

I expect terrorists to act like terrorists the same way I expect crooks to act like crooks.  As soon as a state (backed by the largest military in the world) begins acting in the same way... I reckon it will only breed more and more terrorists. 

With regards to what you're saying about facts and what not... and taking a line from Ed;  "arrested the press, no one knows what happened next." 

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/20/media/israel-journalists-killed-questions/index.html

IDF maintains a good hold on what's happening over there. Media is censored. And now, journalists are being gunned down. Not arrested, killed. 

These stories are backed up by Amnesty International and the UN.  The UN by the way... just passed a vote to recognize Palestine as a state. I think 146-ish yes 9-no 25-abstain.  Of the 146 yes votes.. two were from G7 countries. 

No one is saying what Hamas did, have been doing, and are likely going to continue to do is good in any way. But two wrong's most assuredly don't make a right. 

First off I completely agree that two wrongs don't make a right,  and I wasn't familiar with the Ed quote,  thanks for sharing it,  it's a good one. Truth is another frequent casualty of war and information from both sides needs to be taken with a few grains of salt.

I understand the problem many have with the apparent proportionality of the response and please believe me that I would like nothing better than to have no civilian casualties in any conflict,  but I just don't see it as being achievable (which isn't to say stop trying obviously). As smart as a bomb might be,  it's still stupid once the detonator goes off. I should point out that at least once the IDF has engaged in a stealth/surgical operation specifically when it came to a hospital.

One of the worst parts of this conflict is the cyclical nature that's developed where Hamas guaranteed continued hate or distrust of Palestinians while Israel is creating a new generation of sympathizers for Hamas with each child that loses a parent. The only way past that is a lasting peace and the passage of time but that's currently nowhere near the horizon. 

I  agree that terrorists will act more akin to criminals and will even say that Israel does need to account better for striking medical facilities and their surroundings.  However that's one war crime for Israel compared to Hamas' two. First,  October 7, followed by the use of human shields (which as far as I've googled is a war crime). Hamas goes and muddies the water by being both a terrorist organization (under Canadian law) and the official government of Gaza. 

I'm going to circle back to your example of being punched in the face while I hold a bat, with the puncher openly stating that they'll return and continue punching until I'm dead. In fact I'll up the ante by putting a gun (nuclear weapons) in my own hand. Again I'll say that I honestly can't say what the proportional response is, since I think that seems to be the primary issue in some ways.  Do I use my bat to hobble them? Do I put a bullet through their head in the face of their announced threat? The only real answer I have (other than leaning towards a stronger response) is to thank my God that I live somewhere that this is more mental exercise than fact of life (a sentiment I hope we can all agree on).

DarthMaeglin

Yet again,  forgot to follow up on a point,  lol, the UN vote. Canada (for whatever reason but I support this move) abstained from the vote.

DarthMaeglin

This isn’t intended as a “gotcha”, but it does reframe or recontextualizes part of the discussion.

The UN has chosen to stop accepting casualty figures from groups that answer to Hamas, and as a result the number of women and children killed is estimated to be half of what was previously reported.

It obviously doesn’t lessen the tragedy of civilians being killed in a war zone.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/israel-middle-east/united-nations-halves-estimate-of-women-and-children-killed-in-gaza

PJ_Soul

Surely nobody here trusts Hamas? I don't think the above post recontextualizes the part of the conversation about Israel's war crimes and the perspective that Israel is fucking this all up horrible, or about the US's position in terms of supporting Israel's actions at this point, although I don't know if those are are the parts of the discussion you're referring to.

DarthMaeglin

PJ_Soul said:

Surely nobody here trusts Hamas? I don't think the above post recontextualizes the part of the conversation about Israel's war crimes and the perspective that Israel is fucking this all up horrible, or about the US's position in terms of supporting Israel's actions at this point, although I don't know if those are are the parts of the discussion you're referring to.

The number that was cited to me was 13,500 children killed, but that is likely closer to 7,000. Seems like a substantial discrepancy to me.

And for every mention of Isreal’s “war crimes” there need to be acknowledgments of Hamas’ numerous war crimes (including the war crime that initiated the current round of open warfare).

I suggested that we were getting into the-chicken-and-the-egg, but in this instance we know which came first, Hamas started by using civilian shields. Then Israel chose to take the shot.

PJ_Soul

I suggest it's pretty weird to make a point that only killing 7000 children somehow makes things look better for Israel. I personally hold Israel up to much higher standards than I do a terrorist organization, so I don't really get this tit for tat concept that you're onto.

DarthMaeglin

PJ_Soul said:

I suggest it's pretty weird to make a point that only killing 7000 children somehow makes things look better for Israel. I personally hold Israel up to much higher standards than I do a terrorist organization, so I don't really get this tit for tat concept that you're onto.

I don’t get where I suggested the lower numbers was somehow a good thing. It’s still a tragedy, I didn’t think it needed to be said every time.

A large part of what informs my views on this conflict is what started it, the October 7 attack by Hamas on civilian targets. Their version of 9/11 in many regards.

 I do think Parksy’s analogy of being punched in the face while I hold both a bat and a gun. What is the correct response in the face of what amounts to a death threat? Again, I honestly can’t say but still lean towards a stronger response.

It sometimes comes across that Hamas’ actions in this are being downplayed if not ignored.

I’ll also suggest that both Israel and Hamas need to be held to the same standard, given that Hamas is the official government of Gaza (even if our government lists them as a terrorist organization).

DarthMaeglin

Actually, how is 7,000 children living that were thought dead not a good thing?

PJ_Soul

It just doesn't change anything IMO.

I am surprised you think Hamas and Israel should be held to the same standards... Hamas shouldn't even exist. I'm assuming you don't think that about Israel at this point (I would argue it perhaps never should have been created by the British, but we're long beyond that obviously).

As for Israel's actions now... it's completely clear that what is happening and the motivation on Israel's part is FAR beyond retaliation against the October 7th attack. As the far-right gets more and more amped up their intentions become more and more clear, as they also continue to completely avoid addressing any long term plan that involves peace with 6 million non-Hamas Palestinians. They don't even seem to be thinking about how to reset negotiations of a 2-state plan right now, and while they continue to hammer Gaza, no Palestinians are in any position to try and start that conversation either. I feel that being stuck on the Oct 7th attack has become pointless.

HughFreakingDillon

oh, thank god only 7,000 children are dead and not 14,000. praise netanyahu for his mercy. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

oh, thank god only 7,000 children are dead and not 14,000. praise netanyahu for his mercy. 

How many children have been raped and beheaded by the IDF?

DarthMaeglin

When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.

It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.

However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.

Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?

HughFreakingDillon

DarthMaeglin said:

When a large part of the discussion is the proportionality of a response and numbers have been used, when those numbers change significantly, then I do see that as absolutely germane to the discussion.

It’s sad that I seemingly need to point everyone back to the last line of my post introducing the revised numbers. The line where I clearly acknowledge that civilian deaths in a war zone have always been and will always be a tragedy.

However, until warfare becomes so targeted that it all occurs via nanobots, there WILL be civilians killed in war.

Is there an equal cry to make us (Canada) face justice for the civilian deaths we caused in Afghanistan? Why not?

there absolutely fucking should be. I have always maintained that our participation in any activity in the mid east that directly caused civilian deaths should be investigated, and prosecuted if applicable. 

Israel has been actively engaged in genocide for decades. But it's somehow ok because you aren't allowed to criticize anything linked to Israel without being called a bigot. 

this conflict did not start on Oct 7.