Canadian Politics Redux

Spunkie

HughFreakingDillon said:

I would have gotten fired if I didn't get the vaccine. Should I lead a convoy of accountants across the country and call myself a hero?

My sister did get fired for not taking the vaccine from a job she loves. 

She's cleaning houses now, with a bad back.

dignin

Nami said:

The Juggler said:

Nami said:

https://youtu.be/E5ABp23lMfE

Don't worry Diggin, it's parliament clip, on YT.  Should be legit.

He is not a leader.

Yeah, sure. What in the hell do you people think Murphy Brown's gonna do about it?

Canada is fucking weird, man. 

What's so weird wanting the mandates lifted?

What's fucking weird is JT thinking we're going to get to 100%, currently at 90% vaccination.

At least the PC party is willing to address the "fringe minority", rather than Libs which rather revert to force to end this.    

People wanting discussion about their rights with elected officials that we vote in office is never wrong.  

Those assholes that were calling for his head? Yeah, he should really talk to them.

Give me a break. You can't whitewash what this is actually about.

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

the cowherd comment, if that's what you are referring to, was a joke. not belittling. 

I don't see the relevance of questions 1 and 2. and yes, for number 3, it does reduce transmissibility:

https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298

mandating all citizens to do anything federally is a massive step, and one that no government should ever take lightly. they count on private businesses, workplaces, local health authorities, et al, to do most of that heavy lifting, and also hoping for the general public's belief in science and general cooperation. 

has there ever been a federal mandate for any vaccine in Canada?

In all honesty, I don’t even know what you meant with the cowherd comment. Your belittling was your first sentence if anything.

 I did read the article and while it was informative, unfortunately it hasn’t convinced me. It kept stressing that the vaccines do mitigate outcomes, but were, in fact, never really designed to prevent transmission. Yet countless politicians of all stripes continue to tell us that vaccines are our way out of this. And it talked about a suite of vaccines being available, which is not the case in Canada.

I’ll say again, if it is existentially necessary to achieve 100% vaccination, there are powers at all levels of government to do so. As you acknowledged, this is a drastic measure, but I believe better than this protracted social division being driven strongly by the Prime Minister.

Michael Chong said it well last night: “You are either Prime Minister to all or Prime Minister to none.” Trudeau is clearly (even proudly) not Prime Minister to all.

dignin

tish said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

I would have gotten fired if I didn't get the vaccine. Should I lead a convoy of accountants across the country and call myself a hero?

My sister did get fired for not taking the vaccine from a job she loves. 

She's cleaning houses now, with a bad back.

Actions, or lack there of have consequences. I have no sympathy for anyone who can and will not take a safe vaccine. 

HughFreakingDillon

if you call it belittling, fine, but you are ignoring all the available scientific evidence that refutes your claims of efficacy. it's quite baffling to me. 

it doesn't matter what they were designed for: the simple fact is they reduce transmissibility, which apparently is one of your factors for not believing they were effective. well, they are. that's a fact. now you are moving the goal posts about the original intent of the vaccine (and I believe they originally were hoping to mitigate transmission with the vaccines). 

it isn't necessary to achieve 100% vaccination. that was literally never on the table as far as I know. I never once heard any single politician say that. I honestly think you are making it up to help your case. 

this "division" conservative keep talking about. what does a strong leader do? He condemns behaviour when he believes it is warranted. He is praising the 80-85% of people who have been vaccinated. he's imploring as many of the rest to do so as well. he is speaking harshly of a very infinitesimal group of people, and the right is calling this "the entire country is divided". that's pure nonsense. 10% of one profession is and a few smatterings of others are hardly half the country.  it is exactly as he said it is: fringe. meltdown can post all the twitter posts and memes he likes; it's not going to change the fact that, relatively speaking, this is a very small minority of people. 

as parksy mentioned, do I agree with some of the way he's said things? not necessarily. I think some of the criticism is warranted. But that's hardly "a PM for none". sounds pretty dramatic to me. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

if you call it belittling, fine, but you are ignoring all the available scientific evidence that refutes your claims of efficacy. it's quite baffling to me. 

it doesn't matter what they were designed for: the simple fact is they reduce transmissibility, which apparently is one of your factors for not believing they were effective. well, they are. that's a fact. now you are moving the goal posts about the original intent of the vaccine (and I believe they originally were hoping to mitigate transmission with the vaccines). 

it isn't necessary to achieve 100% vaccination. that was literally never on the table as far as I know. I never once heard any single politician say that. I honestly think you are making it up to help your case. 

this "division" conservative keep talking about. what does a strong leader do? He condemns behaviour when he believes it is warranted. He is praising the 80-85% of people who have been vaccinated. he's imploring as many of the rest to do so as well. he is speaking harshly of a very infinitesimal group of people, and the right is calling this "the entire country is divided". that's pure nonsense. 10% of one profession is and a few smatterings of others are hardly half the country.  it is exactly as he said it is: fringe. meltdown can post all the twitter posts and memes he likes; it's not going to change the fact that, relatively speaking, this is a very small minority of people. 

as parksy mentioned, do I agree with some of the way he's said things? not necessarily. I think some of the criticism is warranted. But that's hardly "a PM for none". sounds pretty dramatic to me. 

The article you provided clearly stated that with each subsequent variant prevention of transmission has dropped. The last time testing numbers that were anywhere near accurate were given, case rates were pretty much proportional between vaccinated and unvaccinated (not looking at outcomes).

And I’m not really “moving goal posts”, I’m adjusting my stance (maybe I worded it poorly…again) in the light of better information than any of our elected representatives (who have been our primary vaccine ambassadors) have given us. I can’t recall a single politician telling us that the vaccines weren’t ever meant to slow down spread (maybe lately they have, mainly because it’s become undeniable). I guess I partly drew the wrong conclusion based on my own experiences with vaccines. I did have chicken pox as a child but never had measles and have never had a tetanus infection. I haven’t, in my memory gotten a flu shot.

 I suppose I need someone to clearly explain to me, in simple terms how, exactly, vaccines will help us move beyond covid if all we’re doing is mitigating outcomes. I’ll suggest again that the problem isn’t the unvaccinated but is instead governments that haven’t acted to improve our health care systems, with Trudeau flat out refusing to discuss the health care transfers until the pandemic is over. Because unless a strong case can be made I’ll pretty much never agree with forcing people to be vaccinated (or face segregation). Unlike a mask, one can’t take off a vaccine.

HughFreakingDillon

if the health care system stayed as it is, and the unvaccinated got vaccinated, our health care situation would not be in the dire situation its currently in. 

if the health care system was improved, and the unvaccinated stayed unvaccinated, sure, things would improve as well. but getting vaccinated is a lot quicker, by probably literally decades, than overhauling a federal social system. 

that is a fact and as simple as I can state it. 

HughFreakingDillon

it appears I was wrong about transmissibility of the virus with omicron. So I'd like to set that straight. I just looked it up, and apparently there is evidence that you can transmit while pre-symptomatic, and asymptomatic (although, obviously if you are sneezing and coughing, it's more likely while symptomatic, but so is while exercising). I previously read (probably older science) that this didn't happen (or maybe that was a previous variant). Either way, my main point still stands: vaccination brings down severe outcomes and death, hospitalizations, and ICU admissions. and again, as all along, that has been the main point. 

arguing that the federal health care system should have been overhauled in a few months, or even two years, is, to me, absurd. 

Halifax2TheMax

So, rather than mitigate outcomes, lets prepare for tens of thousands to be in ICU? Talk about a waste of health care resources. What do you do with all of those staffed ICU beds when you're not in pandemic mode? Variants? Gee, wonder how many we'd have of variants if everyone had gone out and gotten jabbed and then the focus became vaccinating the rest of the world? Where might we be if 85%-90% of the planet were fully vaccinated and boosted today?

The circular logic going on three years is astounding.

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

if the health care system stayed as it is, and the unvaccinated got vaccinated, our health care situation would not be in the dire situation its currently in. 

if the health care system was improved, and the unvaccinated stayed unvaccinated, sure, things would improve as well. but getting vaccinated is a lot quicker, by probably literally decades, than overhauling a federal social system. 

that is a fact and as simple as I can state it. 

Thanks for that, but I have to ask if you’re not bothered that we’ve essentially waved away any liability if things turn out poorly and there are long-term negative side effects? I ask because of the unintended consequences I cited above, the short-term gain could be worse because of long-term effects. Canada has gotten lucky with its unscientific rollout of the vaccines (extended gaps was a straight up gamble for political purposes), how far are we willing to press our luck?

In addition, I’m not comfortable with the increasing frequency of shots required, especially since our governments continue to push only the mrna vaccines. To say nothing of our governments denying us any real choice of vaccine.  At some point I’m willing to trust to the science of evolution and let nature be nature.

If any measures have proven effective in controlling covid, it’s been the more practical measures like lockdowns and social limits. Everyone’s sick and tired of those measures but if we want to talk effectiveness in reducing illness, lockdowns are the clear winner, not vaccines. In my opinion.

HughFreakingDillon

I'm fully confident that the increasing need for more shots will come to an end, and in the not-too-distant future. I mean, we all know how difficult it is to sell this to the public; only 40 some percent have their third shot (I'm one of them). so the uptake for a 4th or 5th shot is going to be abysmally low. so I'm hopeful that it simply won't be necessary. it all depends if omicron stays the dominant strain. if it does, I see things going back to normal very soon. if we get another one....we'll see. 

I don't see lockdowns as necessarily being more effective than vaccines. first, I'm not sure how that can be measured, since all lockdown scenarios are different for each reason, and there's no control group of "fully vaccinated" or "no vaccinated". lockdowns are good for curbing the spread to keep the hospital situation management, but obviously aren't sustainable long term economically and mentally. that's why the push for vaccines as the "only way out of this". it was never about 100%. it was about as many people protected as possible so we could get back to normal. that was it. 

HughFreakingDillon

and to answer your first question, yes, there are people with adverse affects. there is with every vaccine/medical treatment. But those are only in the first 40 or so days post-vaccination. that isn't conjecture, that's scientific fact of MRNA technology that has been around for decades. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

and to answer your first question, yes, there are people with adverse affects. there is with every vaccine/medical treatment. But those are only in the first 40 or so days post-vaccination. that isn't conjecture, that's scientific fact of MRNA technology that has been around for decades. 

I’ll point you back to the three questions I asked earlier regarding side-effects.

I do want to make a point that I feel it’s unfortunate that in arguing against forced vaccination I find myself quasi-arguing against vaccines in general. That’s not my intent, and for those happy (comfortable might be a better word) taking the shots offered I’m genuinely happy for you. I set aside my concerns about mrna vaccines for the greater good and got my 2 shots of Pfizer, the reason I haven’t been boosted with the J&J shot is the stupid process for accessing it (I’m having to go back to my family doctor and tell him he was wrong and push him for a referral). Dr. deVilla (Toronto’s chief medical officer) just referred to my situation as undervaccinated.

And I’ll say again, 80%+ vaccinated is a number we should ALL be proud of, and I think we need to focus on that more than drawing lines between us.

HughFreakingDillon

from immunizebc.ca:

• The history of vaccines shows that delayed effects after vaccination can happen. But when they do, these effects tend to happen within six weeks of receiving a vaccine. This is why regulators in Canada and many other countries require at least eight weeks of safety data before approving a vaccine. The vaccines have now been in use for months, with over 9.5 billion doses given worldwide.
• The mRNA vaccines have been in development for many years and have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). In addition, cancer research has used mRNA to trigger the immune system to target specific cancer cells. Decades of studying mRNA vaccines have shown no long-term side effects.
• Canada’s vaccine safety system has proven time and again that the data necessary to get through the approval process is sufficient to prove safety, even for the long term. The end data and safety tests for the mRNA vaccines met the same standards as other vaccines that have been approved in Canada.

the reason for the 40 day/six week thing is because the main ingredients in the vaccine is virtually gone from the body after that period of time. just like if you were poisoned....if you had any long term health effects from drinking (or injecting) bleach, you'd know pretty soon after doing it. this isn't like years and years of being exposed to asbestos. 

I don't think anyone arguing against forced vaccination is automatically anti-vax. I'm not necessarily for forced vaccination in society; I'm fine with vaccine mandates, but not necessarily forced vaccination. 

DarthMaeglin

HughFreakingDillon said:

from immunizebc.ca:

• The history of vaccines shows that delayed effects after vaccination can happen. But when they do, these effects tend to happen within six weeks of receiving a vaccine. This is why regulators in Canada and many other countries require at least eight weeks of safety data before approving a vaccine. The vaccines have now been in use for months, with over 9.5 billion doses given worldwide.
• The mRNA vaccines have been in development for many years and have been studied before for flu, Zika, rabies, and cytomegalovirus (CMV). In addition, cancer research has used mRNA to trigger the immune system to target specific cancer cells. Decades of studying mRNA vaccines have shown no long-term side effects.
• Canada’s vaccine safety system has proven time and again that the data necessary to get through the approval process is sufficient to prove safety, even for the long term. The end data and safety tests for the mRNA vaccines met the same standards as other vaccines that have been approved in Canada.

the reason for the 40 day/six week thing is because the main ingredients in the vaccine is virtually gone from the body after that period of time. just like if you were poisoned....if you had any long term health effects from drinking (or injecting) bleach, you'd know pretty soon after doing it. this isn't like years and years of being exposed to asbestos. 

I don't think anyone arguing against forced vaccination is automatically anti-vax. I'm not necessarily for forced vaccination in society; I'm fine with vaccine mandates, but not necessarily forced vaccination. 

I appreciate that two of my three questions have been answered. My question about use this widespread still stands, where the vaccines are interacting with far more diverse biologies than previously. Which can lead to my tired trope of unintended consequences.

Unfortunately it turns out Canada’s bang on 80%, still impressive, try getting 80% agreement on anything, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

I do agree that 80% is good. 

Meltdown99

https://twitter.com/darmeneau/status/1491182483978997760?s=21

Wait till spring and warmer weather arrives…

Meltdown99

https://twitter.com/ctvnews/status/1491208453913722883?s=21

Meltdown99

https://twitter.com/ashkaur/status/1491151559002308609?s=21

Nami

Yes everyone is different.

As i have mentioned before in this thread, i work in the public sector and was mandated to get the vaccine shots, or lose a job.  I had them before it came out but in the end it should be my choice not the government.  This is why i have been rooting the truckers along in their fight.  No one but me should make that decision.  And no one should be threatened like the people of PQ with an additional tax,  or for all of us with the loss of EI if we didnt submit.  I know that these were discussion at various levels, but thankfully nothing came to fruition. 

I know you dont agree, but the way i see this convoy, is a finally a collection of people, backgrounds, etc coming together to stop the erosion of our rights. I want the current government to know, we joined in (what 80-90% of us vaccinated) to help in the fight, but thats enough of that- no more.  going forward it should not be that same standard and the final choice, that of the people.    

Freedom to travel province to province or wherever should not be hindered.  These vaccine passports, what a joke, prior to Christmas the data on the Newfoundland App was hacked with all our personal information and what not- stolen ... And the last couple of days, a review of statistics canada procedures with our location/user data from CA\s Privacy Counsellor.

Questioning the overreach of our government during these difficult or even normal, times should always be questioned