What the hell happen in Virginia??

PJ_Soul

dudeman said:

PJ_Soul said:

dudeman said:

PJ_Soul said:

dudeman said:

They "protect" by arresting and incarcerating criminals. They are, in essence protecting society from those criminals, but they are doing so only after a crime has been committed.

The police are there to serve and protect. Of course it's their jobs to try and prevent crime if they can. Did I see you say that a policeman can just stand there and watch a crime being committed, no problem, as long as they catch the criminal after the fact? .... Makes me glad I don't live wherever you do, a place where the cops are not doing half their job.

Yup. Supreme Court says so. Google it if you care to.

Would be pointless. Cops just don't do that. Not any decent one anyway. Some asshole cop might have gotten away with it by taking it to the Supreme Court after law enforcement tried to prosecute and/or fire him (because they know that cops are supposed to protect too), but I bet he lost the respect of all of his colleagues and the public while he was at it, and other cops certainly didn't jump on board. Also, you're obviously referring to one particular case. Just because there was a finding like this in the courts it doesn't mean that's how it works. It means that a shitty cop who didn't do his job properly can't be sued or thrown in prison for doing it. That is a big difference. Cops try to stop people from dying when they can and their job is still to protect.

Yes, but all of that assumes that the police actually arrive in time to be of assistance before someone ends up dead.

Of course. A cop can't prevent or protect if they aren't even there to do it.

rgambs

dudeman said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dudeman said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dudeman said:

They "protect" by arresting and incarcerating criminals. They are, in essence protecting society from those criminals, but they are doing so only after a crime has been committed.

They don't have the benefit of foresight. They protect however they can.

But I'm not sure what you are arguing. Nobody is saying you can't have a shotgun in your home for protection. They're saying you don't need a tommy gun or 44 magnum to offer the same level of security given the level of risk the aforementioned carry when in the wrong hands.

First, I'm not arguing, I'm participating in a discussion.

Second, people in this thread are questioning why anyone would want a gun for protection, not which types of guns are considered acceptable to serve that role.

As for the police "not having the benefit of foresight", I don't have that benefit either. I choose to be as prepared as I can, however when less than ideal circumstances present themselves and I'm alone the efforts to curtail those circumstances.

I look at defensive ownership of a firearm much like I look at owning a first-aid kit or a spare tire for my car. I don't live in fear that I may have to use any of those things to get myself or my family through a tough situation, but I am able and prepared to use them if need be.

In all of those cases, I hope I never need any of those items.

I feel people should always have the right to own a firearm (shotgun, hunting rifle, or handgun in certain situations)... unless, of course, they forfeit their right by proving to be someone who might be dangerous with such a gun.

My stance is handguns and assault rifles. The majority of your murders are via the handgun- too easily concealable. I don't see the need for any citizen to own an assault rifle- they've proven to be extremely efficient weapons for committing mass murder.

Home protection is legitimate and so is hunting. Shotguns and rifles with small magazine sizes service these interests very well.

Your first paragraph states the current situation in the US. I also don't own an "assault rifle" as I feel that I don't really need one. It's nice to have the option though, as long as I meet the criteria of not being a danger to society.

I also just heard that mass murders account for about .5% of gun deaths in the US. While it's still too many, mass murders aren't the cause of huge gun-related fatalities. Of the 30,000 per year, 20,000 are suicides. Of the remaining 10,000, 90% of those are committed by people that are somehow related to or otherwise involved with the victim.

It's a shitty situation for sure but eliminating "assault rifles" will likely have little to no impact on the annual gun death rate.

That is where the "responsible owner" fallacy rears it's head. Average Joes who aren't restricted by our lax laws own guns without trouble...until they catch their spouse cheating or catch a case of hard times..then the law abider makes a rash mistake and somebody ends up dead.

mcgruff10

Godfather. said:

why would anybody in thier right mind say it's o.k to own a .22 cal gun for home protection but not an AK ? are there different levels of dead for breaking into a home and attacking a family ? the AK simi auto would change an intruders mind a heck of a lot quicker than a .22, if I protect my home with a large cal weapon or a small cal weapon or if I just want to own one because I like them is none of ANYBODYS business unless your the poor bastard attacking my family then you will find out what a large cal weapon will do....simple really

Godfather.

very very true. "stop intruder, I have my bolt action .22 ready to go if you come one step closer!" lol
5.56 and 9mm are my calibers of choice when protecting my family.
I think guns are like life insurance....you never want to use it but it's there just in case.

Godfather.

mcgruff10 said:

Godfather. said:

why would anybody in thier right mind say it's o.k to own a .22 cal gun for home protection but not an AK ? are there different levels of dead for breaking into a home and attacking a family ? the AK simi auto would change an intruders mind a heck of a lot quicker than a .22, if I protect my home with a large cal weapon or a small cal weapon or if I just want to own one because I like them is none of ANYBODYS business unless your the poor bastard attacking my family then you will find out what a large cal weapon will do....simple really

Godfather.

very very true. "stop intruder, I have my bolt action .22 ready to go if you come one step closer!" lol
5.56 and 9mm are my calibers of choice when protecting my family.
I think guns are like life insurance....you never want to use it but it's there just in case.

HAHHAHHAHHAHA ! life insurance ! I love it !!!!!

Godfather.

Last-12-Exit

Again, no gun in the history of man, has ever been made to defend your home. The intruder doesn't know what you're packing. Basically what you're asking is which gun is more effective at killing quicker. Which is the ak-47, unless you're a marksman and can do a dude between the eyes with a .22

mcgruff10

Last-12-Exit said:

Again, no gun in the history of man, has ever been made to defend your home. The intruder doesn't know what you're packing. Basically what you're asking is which gun is more effective at killing quicker. Which is the ak-47, unless you're a marksman and can do a dude between the eyes with a .22

well they make weapons with the specific objective to defend your home. they have shotguns made for hunting and shotguns made specifically for home defense. same with rifles...same with hand guns.
and i bought my 9mm to defend my home...not hunt. so i guess I changed history. sweet!

Last-12-Exit

mcgruff10 said:

Last-12-Exit said:

Again, no gun in the history of man, has ever been made to defend your home. The intruder doesn't know what you're packing. Basically what you're asking is which gun is more effective at killing quicker. Which is the ak-47, unless you're a marksman and can do a dude between the eyes with a .22

well they make weapons with the specific objective to defend your home. they have shotguns made for hunting and shotguns made specifically for home defense. same with rifles...same with hand guns.
and i bought my 9mm to defend my home...not hunt. so i guess I changed history. sweet!

Nope. They are all designed for killing things.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mcgruff10 said:

Godfather. said:

why would anybody in thier right mind say it's o.k to own a .22 cal gun for home protection but not an AK ? are there different levels of dead for breaking into a home and attacking a family ? the AK simi auto would change an intruders mind a heck of a lot quicker than a .22, if I protect my home with a large cal weapon or a small cal weapon or if I just want to own one because I like them is none of ANYBODYS business unless your the poor bastard attacking my family then you will find out what a large cal weapon will do....simple really

Godfather.

very very true. "stop intruder, I have my bolt action .22 ready to go if you come one step closer!" lol
5.56 and 9mm are my calibers of choice when protecting my family.
I think guns are like life insurance....you never want to use it but it's there just in case.

It's my opinion that in the extremely extremely rare situation where you find yourself standing at your door attempting to ward off intruders... stopping power is infinitely greater with a 12 gauge shotgun and so is your accuracy with its blast pattern.

Think about that while your knees are knocking against each other and you've squirted a rosebud in your drawers.

callen

mcgruff10 said:

dudeman said:

callen said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Something else to consider: it was said many times in this thread that America has a gun problem and the "gun nuts" refuse to acknowledge that. My reply is "No shit America has a gun problem. And a drug problem and an education problem and a race problem and a homeless problem and a class problem and an environmental problem and a work problem and a prison problem and a gang problem and an immigration problem and a greed problem and a corruption problem and a mental health problem and an obesity problem and a culture problem and a drinking problem and a smoking problem and ...................

Too many people out there feel victimized or marginalized by all of these problems. Some of the less that stable ones choose to act out in violent ways with firearms. Yes, that's a problem too, but until we address these issues that are driving people to the level despair that they feel they need to do horrible things to others, nothing will meaningfully change.

Those problems are much harder to solve. When people are truly at the end of their rope, they are desperate and having such destructive weapons available leads to deaths that wouldn't have occured had a blade or blunt object been the only option.

Are you advocating the confiscation of all guns from private ownership?

No, only tighter restrictions on future sales.
An absolute and total end to private sales and registration of all guns sold would be a great place to start.

For the record, confiscation isn't some devilish idea that makes me grab my pitchfork.

The end of private sales and registration is a slippery slope and potentially dangerous as those things would likely lead to complete confiscation. I'm not one of those people that thinks our government is going to enslave its people, I just don't trust them to protect me and my family. They can't even balance a fucking checkbook.

Great so freakin free for all.

And many gun owners can't balance checkbook.

Not really a "free for all", there are limits to gun ownership rights, as there should be.

The freedom to be able to make the decision for myself is worth fighting for, IMO.

agree 100%. I would say 99% of all gun owners are very responsible. It's the 1% (or less) that are making us looking bad.

"are making us looking bad", Funny on so many levels but funniest after you correcting missing "a". Ha.

mcgruff10

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mcgruff10 said:

Godfather. said:

why would anybody in thier right mind say it's o.k to own a .22 cal gun for home protection but not an AK ? are there different levels of dead for breaking into a home and attacking a family ? the AK simi auto would change an intruders mind a heck of a lot quicker than a .22, if I protect my home with a large cal weapon or a small cal weapon or if I just want to own one because I like them is none of ANYBODYS business unless your the poor bastard attacking my family then you will find out what a large cal weapon will do....simple really

Godfather.

very very true. "stop intruder, I have my bolt action .22 ready to go if you come one step closer!" lol
5.56 and 9mm are my calibers of choice when protecting my family.
I think guns are like life insurance....you never want to use it but it's there just in case.

It's my opinion that in the extremely extremely rare situation where you find yourself standing at your door attempting to ward off intruders... stopping power is infinitely greater with a 12 gauge shotgun and so is your accuracy with its blast pattern.

Think about that while your knees are knocking against each other and you've squirted a rosebud in your drawers.

Very very true my friend. 12 gauge buckshot is deadly.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

mcgruff10 said:

dudeman said:

callen said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Something else to consider: it was said many times in this thread that America has a gun problem and the "gun nuts" refuse to acknowledge that. My reply is "No shit America has a gun problem. And a drug problem and an education problem and a race problem and a homeless problem and a class problem and an environmental problem and a work problem and a prison problem and a gang problem and an immigration problem and a greed problem and a corruption problem and a mental health problem and an obesity problem and a culture problem and a drinking problem and a smoking problem and ...................

Too many people out there feel victimized or marginalized by all of these problems. Some of the less that stable ones choose to act out in violent ways with firearms. Yes, that's a problem too, but until we address these issues that are driving people to the level despair that they feel they need to do horrible things to others, nothing will meaningfully change.

Those problems are much harder to solve. When people are truly at the end of their rope, they are desperate and having such destructive weapons available leads to deaths that wouldn't have occured had a blade or blunt object been the only option.

Are you advocating the confiscation of all guns from private ownership?

No, only tighter restrictions on future sales.
An absolute and total end to private sales and registration of all guns sold would be a great place to start.

For the record, confiscation isn't some devilish idea that makes me grab my pitchfork.

The end of private sales and registration is a slippery slope and potentially dangerous as those things would likely lead to complete confiscation. I'm not one of those people that thinks our government is going to enslave its people, I just don't trust them to protect me and my family. They can't even balance a fucking checkbook.

Great so freakin free for all.

And many gun owners can't balance checkbook.

Not really a "free for all", there are limits to gun ownership rights, as there should be.

The freedom to be able to make the decision for myself is worth fighting for, IMO.

agree 100%. I would say 99% of all gun owners are very responsible. It's the 1% (or less) that are making us looking bad.

"are making us looking bad", Funny on so many levels but funniest after you correcting missing "a". Ha.

Hahahaha.

Oh man. It. Is. On.

Callen, reeling from that earlier shot, pounced with his fangs bared and Scruffy's back on his heels. Epic match!

Last-12-Exit

mcgruff10 said:

dudeman said:

callen said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Something else to consider: it was said many times in this thread that America has a gun problem and the "gun nuts" refuse to acknowledge that. My reply is "No shit America has a gun problem. And a drug problem and an education problem and a race problem and a homeless problem and a class problem and an environmental problem and a work problem and a prison problem and a gang problem and an immigration problem and a greed problem and a corruption problem and a mental health problem and an obesity problem and a culture problem and a drinking problem and a smoking problem and ...................

Too many people out there feel victimized or marginalized by all of these problems. Some of the less that stable ones choose to act out in violent ways with firearms. Yes, that's a problem too, but until we address these issues that are driving people to the level despair that they feel they need to do horrible things to others, nothing will meaningfully change.

Those problems are much harder to solve. When people are truly at the end of their rope, they are desperate and having such destructive weapons available leads to deaths that wouldn't have occured had a blade or blunt object been the only option.

Are you advocating the confiscation of all guns from private ownership?

No, only tighter restrictions on future sales.
An absolute and total end to private sales and registration of all guns sold would be a great place to start.

For the record, confiscation isn't some devilish idea that makes me grab my pitchfork.

The end of private sales and registration is a slippery slope and potentially dangerous as those things would likely lead to complete confiscation. I'm not one of those people that thinks our government is going to enslave its people, I just don't trust them to protect me and my family. They can't even balance a fucking checkbook.

Great so freakin free for all.

And many gun owners can't balance checkbook.

Not really a "free for all", there are limits to gun ownership rights, as there should be.

The freedom to be able to make the decision for myself is worth fighting for, IMO.

agree 100%. I would say 99% of all gun owners are very responsible. It's the 1% (or less) that are making us looking bad.

This is also something I'd like to see cited. I don't believe only 1% of gun owners are irresponsible. I say it's alot higher.

mcgruff10

callen said:

mcgruff10 said:

dudeman said:

callen said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Something else to consider: it was said many times in this thread that America has a gun problem and the "gun nuts" refuse to acknowledge that. My reply is "No shit America has a gun problem. And a drug problem and an education problem and a race problem and a homeless problem and a class problem and an environmental problem and a work problem and a prison problem and a gang problem and an immigration problem and a greed problem and a corruption problem and a mental health problem and an obesity problem and a culture problem and a drinking problem and a smoking problem and ...................

Too many people out there feel victimized or marginalized by all of these problems. Some of the less that stable ones choose to act out in violent ways with firearms. Yes, that's a problem too, but until we address these issues that are driving people to the level despair that they feel they need to do horrible things to others, nothing will meaningfully change.

Those problems are much harder to solve. When people are truly at the end of their rope, they are desperate and having such destructive weapons available leads to deaths that wouldn't have occured had a blade or blunt object been the only option.

Are you advocating the confiscation of all guns from private ownership?

No, only tighter restrictions on future sales.
An absolute and total end to private sales and registration of all guns sold would be a great place to start.

For the record, confiscation isn't some devilish idea that makes me grab my pitchfork.

The end of private sales and registration is a slippery slope and potentially dangerous as those things would likely lead to complete confiscation. I'm not one of those people that thinks our government is going to enslave its people, I just don't trust them to protect me and my family. They can't even balance a fucking checkbook.

Great so freakin free for all.

And many gun owners can't balance checkbook.

Not really a "free for all", there are limits to gun ownership rights, as there should be.

The freedom to be able to make the decision for myself is worth fighting for, IMO.

agree 100%. I would say 99% of all gun owners are very responsible. It's the 1% (or less) that are making us looking bad.

"are making us looking bad", Funny on so many levels but funniest after you correcting missing "a". Ha.

touche! stupid auto correct on my iphone. didn't even pick that up. lol

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mcgruff10 said:

callen said:

mcgruff10 said:

dudeman said:

callen said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Something else to consider: it was said many times in this thread that America has a gun problem and the "gun nuts" refuse to acknowledge that. My reply is "No shit America has a gun problem. And a drug problem and an education problem and a race problem and a homeless problem and a class problem and an environmental problem and a work problem and a prison problem and a gang problem and an immigration problem and a greed problem and a corruption problem and a mental health problem and an obesity problem and a culture problem and a drinking problem and a smoking problem and ...................

Too many people out there feel victimized or marginalized by all of these problems. Some of the less that stable ones choose to act out in violent ways with firearms. Yes, that's a problem too, but until we address these issues that are driving people to the level despair that they feel they need to do horrible things to others, nothing will meaningfully change.

Those problems are much harder to solve. When people are truly at the end of their rope, they are desperate and having such destructive weapons available leads to deaths that wouldn't have occured had a blade or blunt object been the only option.

Are you advocating the confiscation of all guns from private ownership?

No, only tighter restrictions on future sales.
An absolute and total end to private sales and registration of all guns sold would be a great place to start.

For the record, confiscation isn't some devilish idea that makes me grab my pitchfork.

The end of private sales and registration is a slippery slope and potentially dangerous as those things would likely lead to complete confiscation. I'm not one of those people that thinks our government is going to enslave its people, I just don't trust them to protect me and my family. They can't even balance a fucking checkbook.

Great so freakin free for all.

And many gun owners can't balance checkbook.

Not really a "free for all", there are limits to gun ownership rights, as there should be.

The freedom to be able to make the decision for myself is worth fighting for, IMO.

agree 100%. I would say 99% of all gun owners are very responsible. It's the 1% (or less) that are making us looking bad.

"are making us looking bad", Funny on so many levels but funniest after you correcting missing "a". Ha.

touche! stupid auto correct on my iphone. didn't even pick that up. lol

D'oh.

Last-12-Exit

But unfortunately, there's no way to determine who is and who isn't a responsible gun owner because guns do not have to be registered like vehicles. Part of the registration process for guns should include being ticketed for offenses like not renewing registrations or your gun being used in a crime. This should all be on record. Then we could truly find out how many responsible gun owners we have.

callen

mcgruff10 said:

callen said:

mcgruff10 said:

dudeman said:

callen said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

rgambs said:

dudeman said:

Something else to consider: it was said many times in this thread that America has a gun problem and the "gun nuts" refuse to acknowledge that. My reply is "No shit America has a gun problem. And a drug problem and an education problem and a race problem and a homeless problem and a class problem and an environmental problem and a work problem and a prison problem and a gang problem and an immigration problem and a greed problem and a corruption problem and a mental health problem and an obesity problem and a culture problem and a drinking problem and a smoking problem and ...................

Too many people out there feel victimized or marginalized by all of these problems. Some of the less that stable ones choose to act out in violent ways with firearms. Yes, that's a problem too, but until we address these issues that are driving people to the level despair that they feel they need to do horrible things to others, nothing will meaningfully change.

Those problems are much harder to solve. When people are truly at the end of their rope, they are desperate and having such destructive weapons available leads to deaths that wouldn't have occured had a blade or blunt object been the only option.

Are you advocating the confiscation of all guns from private ownership?

No, only tighter restrictions on future sales.
An absolute and total end to private sales and registration of all guns sold would be a great place to start.

For the record, confiscation isn't some devilish idea that makes me grab my pitchfork.

The end of private sales and registration is a slippery slope and potentially dangerous as those things would likely lead to complete confiscation. I'm not one of those people that thinks our government is going to enslave its people, I just don't trust them to protect me and my family. They can't even balance a fucking checkbook.

Great so freakin free for all.

And many gun owners can't balance checkbook.

Not really a "free for all", there are limits to gun ownership rights, as there should be.

The freedom to be able to make the decision for myself is worth fighting for, IMO.

agree 100%. I would say 99% of all gun owners are very responsible. It's the 1% (or less) that are making us looking bad.

"are making us looking bad", Funny on so many levels but funniest after you correcting missing "a". Ha.

touche! stupid auto correct on my iphone. didn't even pick that up. lol

Ha. Peace.

callen

I struggle with this subject. Guns are Incredible tools and man I don't want to take away the right. Realize that's huge. Just can't shake repercussions.

mcgruff10

callen said:

I struggle with this subject. Guns are Incredible tools and man I don't want to take away the right. Realize that's huge. Just can't shake repercussions.

Totally agree. That s why I think education is a key piece to this puzzle. Include it in health class; at what age I don't know but I think it would be a nice start to teach responsibility and show the repercussions. Hell schools used to teach proper shooting technique..,, imagine if they did that today?!

rgambs

Last-12-Exit said:

But unfortunately, there's no way to determine who is and who isn't a responsible gun owner because guns do not have to be registered like vehicles. Part of the registration process for guns should include being ticketed for offenses like not renewing registrations or your gun being used in a crime. This should all be on record. Then we could truly find out how many responsible gun owners we have.

Absolutely, and the whole process will make it easier to detect those with red flags.
Anybody with any sort of violence on their record should be prohibited.

mcgruff10

Poll: 60% say gun control won't stop violence, 54% blame social media
By PAUL BEDARD • 8/31/15 1:08 PM
Despite a rash of recent violent gun slayings, the public is not inclined to back more gun control and believes that new restrictions wouldn't have stopped the shooting deaths, according to a new poll.

Rasmussen Reports, polling on last week's shooting of two Virginia TV journalists on live TV, found that just 29 percent of likely voters believe stricter gun control laws would have prevented the slayings. Twice as many, 60 percent, said it wouldn't have helped.

Those numbers are virtually identical to the public's view of gun control in early 2011 following the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the killing of six others in Arizona.
The latest shootings have prompted some Democrats, notably Hillary Clinton, to promise sweeping gun control proposals if elected president. She has refused to provide specifics, but her call for "preventive measures and control measures" have prompted pro-gun advocates to warn that she wants to revive her husband's assault weapons and large magazine ban.
Also, the parents of slain TV journalist Alison Parker are taking up the gun control fight.

But Rasmussen found little support for those efforts.

The firm did find support for those like Donald Trump who believe that the shooting spurt is due to mental illness, not guns.

"While some politicians called for increased gun control following last week's high-profile killings, Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump said, 'It's not a gun problem. It's a mental problem.' Sixty-eight percent agree with Trump's analysis of the Virginia shootings. Just 24 percent disagree," said Rasmussen.

Instead, voters are blaming social media more and more with 54 percent believing it encourages violent crime. Rasmussen noted that the shooter of the TV reporters last week posted his video to Facebook and Twitter.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poll-60-say-gun-control-wont-stop-violence-54-blame-social-media/article/2571115