de-criminalization of the sex trade ?

any thoughts ? this reminds me of the de-criminalization of all drugs Idea that has been tossed around here, do you think this idea is any different ?

Godfather.

LONDON – Amnesty International approved a controversial policy Tuesday to endorse the de-criminalization of the sex trade, rejecting complaints from some women's rights groups who say it is tantamount to advocating the legalization of pimping and brothel owning.

At its decision-making forum in Dublin, the human rights watchdog approved the resolution to recommend "full decriminalization of all aspects of consensual sex work." It argues its research suggests decriminalization is the best way to defend sex workers' human rights.

"We recognize that this critical human rights issue is hugely complex and that is why we have addressed this issue from the perspective of international human rights standards," said Salil Shetty, Secretary General of Amnesty International. "We also consulted with our global movement to take on board different views from around the world."

Amnesty's decision is important because it will use its heft to lobby governments around the world to accept its point of view.

Advance word of the Amnesty policy sparked opposition from some women's groups who argued that the human rights organization has made a serious mistake. The groups, such as the U.S.-based Coalition Against Trafficking in Women, have argued that while it agrees with Amnesty that those who are prostituted should not be criminalized, full de-criminalization would make pimps "businesspeople" who could sell the vulnerable with impunity.

"It really is a slap in the face to survivors and to women's rights groups around the world," said Taina Bien-Aime, the executive director of the coalition, adding that disappointment does not adequately describe her feelings.
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Comments

  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    Good idea
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    I'm fine with de criminalization of the ADULT sex buisness.Regulating and taxing it .It should be like going to get a massage at a reputable spa.With security and health checks .
    On the other hand I want even stricter laws to help fight Child exploitation and trafficking which Unfortunatly does piggy back here.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    rr165892 said:

    I'm fine with de criminalization of the ADULT sex buisness.Regulating and taxing it .It should be like going to get a massage at a reputable spa.With security and health checks .
    On the other hand I want even stricter laws to help fight Child exploitation and trafficking which Unfortunatly does piggy back here.

    Agreed !

    Godfather.

  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    I seem to remember we had a lengthy discussion on here about this last summer, although I can't recall if the thread was specifically about the sex trade or if we hijacked another thread.

    I certainly am in favour of the sex trade workers not being criminalized. I hope there would still be a mechanism to go after the pimps who are victimizing vulnerable people. I haven't seen anything in the past year to change my mind about my original position, which is that the majority of people working in the sex trade are there because they are desperate, usually wrapped up in drugs and/or alcohol, and would very much like not to be doing what they are doing. I think the idea that there are a lot of free thinking, healthy independent women actively making a choice to work in the sex trade is overblown; sure, they exist, but are in a significant minority.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    It was about the sex trade, and it was another gf joint...

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/236275/prostitution-should-it-be-legalized/p1
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845

    It was about the sex trade, and it was another gf joint...

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/236275/prostitution-should-it-be-legalized/p1

    Yes, that was it. Just skimmed the first couple of pages again but I know we had a good discussion.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056

    It was about the sex trade, and it was another gf joint...

    http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/236275/prostitution-should-it-be-legalized/p1

    Yes, that was it. Just skimmed the first couple of pages again but I know we had a good discussion.
    ya....my first post in that thread (pg6) expresses my perspective in more detail than I'd have had time to do today.
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Every time I read the word pimp, I picture Kramer with his walking stick, hat and technicolor coat.

    Anyway, for the most part, wouldn't decriminalizing it remove the need for pimps/bosses? If someone actually chooses to go into this profession, who is anyone to say they shouldn't? People sell themselves and their services in many ways; the fact that it's sex has no bearing on the argument itself, for me.

    Also will never get how it's legal to fuck on camera for money, but take away the camera and boom! Busted.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    hedonist said:

    Every time I read the word pimp, I picture Kramer with his walking stick, hat and technicolor coat.

    Anyway, for the most part, wouldn't decriminalizing it remove the need for pimps/bosses? If someone actually chooses to go into this profession, who is anyone to say they shouldn't? People sell themselves and their services in many ways; the fact that it's sex has no bearing on the argument itself, for me.

    Also will never get how it's legal to fuck on camera for money, but take away the camera and boom! Busted.

    hedonist said:

    Every time I read the word pimp, I picture Kramer with his walking stick, hat and technicolor coat.

    Anyway, for the most part, wouldn't decriminalizing it remove the need for pimps/bosses? If someone actually chooses to go into this profession, who is anyone to say they shouldn't? People sell themselves and their services in many ways; the fact that it's sex has no bearing on the argument itself, for me.

    Also will never get how it's legal to fuck on camera for money, but take away the camera and boom! Busted.

    with backing prostution would be huge, the tourist trade would explode and the money would follow, I agree this would put the modern day pimp out of business because now girls can go to the police without fear of arrest not to mention getting a business lic.and everything else that comes with a legit business.

    Godfather.


  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Freedom. All about freedom. Consenting adults done.

    GF second post on this, ah ah ah. HA
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • I think GF is pushing an agenda here.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    edited August 2015

    I think GF is pushing an agenda here.

    buy a hotel, first floor is a resturant, second floor is a bar, third floor and up...is like a hair saloon, I'd rent rooms to girls in the business and charge them $1000 per night per room, health permits and daily STD checks for all working girls, hire a manager (madam) offer her free appartment rent pluse hourly rate at min. wage to run the day to day business, dinner in the resturant would start at $200 a plate, flate rate on all drinks $20 ea., black tie entry..no jeans and t-shirts, security would be on every floor but not too noticeable to customers.....hows that for an agenda LOL !!!!!

    Post edited by Godfather. on
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504

    I think GF is pushing an agenda here.

    other than that not really but I know what your thinking. LOL !!!

    Godfather.

  • I think GF is pushing an agenda here.

    other than that not really but I know what your thinking. LOL !!!

    Godfather.

    Yup. I was figuring things were frosty around the house lately because the wife had read some of your posts LOL!
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388

    I think GF is pushing an agenda here.

    other than that not really but I know what your thinking. LOL !!!

    Godfather.

    Yup. I was figuring things were frosty around the house lately because the wife had read some of your posts LOL!
    Right thought same thing.

    GF,

    Went to high school in Frankfurt Germany and we'd skip and go to k street down town and they had hotels as you mention. Girls at in chairs in front of their rooms. Was quite interesting. We just ogled for the record. Still that way I hear.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    edited August 2015
    hahahhahha my wife would kick my ass, but if I were somebody who didn't care about people it could be a very profitable venture.

    Godfather.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    edited August 2015
    I do not support the selling/purchasing/renting/trafficking of human bodies. Period.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Pj whats ur stance on Porn?
  • PJ_Soul said:

    I do not support the selling/purchasing/renting/trafficking of human bodies. Period.

    I guess it depends on your views of sex.

    If it's a shameful act that should be reserved for married people in the missionary position... then agreed.

    If it's just a physical release for a deeply rooted instinct, then not agreed.

    People get therapeutic massages which isn't as intimate. Perhaps sex isn't far removed from a massage? If a guy struggles to have sex with women for whatever reason and is willing to pay for it... while a woman views sex like the second mindset and wishes to profit from the situation.. why not?

    Playing Devil's advocate.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954
    edited August 2015

    PJ_Soul said:

    I do not support the selling/purchasing/renting/trafficking of human bodies. Period.

    I guess it depends on your views of sex.

    If it's a shameful act that should be reserved for married people in the missionary position... then agreed.

    If it's just a physical release for a deeply rooted instinct, then not agreed.

    People get therapeutic massages which isn't as intimate. Perhaps sex isn't far removed from a massage? If a guy struggles to have sex with women for whatever reason and is willing to pay for it... while a woman views sex like the second mindset and wishes to profit from the situation.. why not?

    Playing Devil's advocate.
    I said a lot in that thread that Drowned Out posted above, so I can just refer to that. My first post in it was:

    "This is the topic that turns me into a conservative, feminist prude.
    I don't think it should be legal to have women's bodies for sale. I understand and appreciate the arguments for legalization, but I still just can't be okay with prostitution and what it truly means to women's position in society (yes, the fact that male prostitutes exist too is something I'm aware of). I think all efforts should go towards preventing people from being prostitutes, as much as that entails."

    I had a whole lot more to say after that, but this is about the size of it IMO. But I really think we should all move over the very interesting thread about this that already exists. I see no point in having the same conversation with pretty much all the same people twice.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    Pro choice doesn't just include abortion. If a woman chooses to bang for money, more power to her. It's her choice.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954

    Pro choice doesn't just include abortion. If a woman chooses to bang for money, more power to her. It's her choice.

    This issue I do find much more complicated than that (as discussed in the other thread).
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Last-12-ExitLast-12-Exit Posts: 8,661
    I know there are several issues that tie into prostitution, but at its core, it's still a woman's choice.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Posts: 49,954

    I know there are several issues that tie into prostitution, but at its core, it's still a woman's choice.

    Well... not if it's a woman whose passport is being withheld by her pimp, or one who being controlled by means of her drug addictions, etc, etc etc. I would say that there are a lot of circumstances that actually make it not so much their choice, and some of those circumstances absolutely would not go away with legalization or decriminalization.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    PJ_Soul said:

    I know there are several issues that tie into prostitution, but at its core, it's still a woman's choice.

    Well... not if it's a woman whose passport is being withheld by her pimp, or one who being controlled by means of her drug addictions, etc, etc etc. I would say that there are a lot of circumstances that actually make it not so much their choice, and some of those circumstances absolutely would not go away with legalization or decriminalization.
    As I said in the other thread - regulated legalization provides an easier means of identifying these at-risk women. If her passport is being held, she likely wouldn't be able to get a license. addiction: again, addiction is the problem, not the job. And like any other job, there would be at least SOME measures/incentives/consequences in place to attempt to keep employees from becoming addicts. Sex worker addicts would also then have access to healthcare benefits and workers rights not currently afforded them.
    The scenarios you speak of are more serious for street level, or illegal brothel sex workers...and street-level sex work could and would be more strictly policed if there was a system in place in which that work would hurt the government's bottom line...the additional funding for that would come from the tax dollars made from legalizing.
    Every time this discussion comes up in the media, the working girls they can get to speak out are emphatic that they want legalization (but it's usually countered by a former worker's horror stories...which may have been avoided via legalization).
    You asked in the other thread if I was speaking locally, because you were speaking globally. But in both instances, we are talking changes to local laws. Not much we can do in other countries from a legal or official standpoint.
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    PJ_Soul said:

    I know there are several issues that tie into prostitution, but at its core, it's still a woman's choice.

    Well... not if it's a woman whose passport is being withheld by her pimp, or one who being controlled by means of her drug addictions, etc, etc etc. I would say that there are a lot of circumstances that actually make it not so much their choice, and some of those circumstances absolutely would not go away with legalization or decriminalization.
    Yes, that's where I'm going with my concern too. I absolutely don't want women (or men) getting criminal charges for engaging in the sex trade but there is no way the simply legalizing prostitution will do away with all of the human misery. It won't do away with pimps. It won't do away with people being trafficked, including between countries. It won't do away with the fact that drugs are endemic. It probably would remove a small portion of the difficulties of being a sex trade worker but not the largest ones. And it's naive to think that the majority of police officers will suddenly become sympathetic to the plight of sex trade workers and would vigorously pursue the many men who are physically violent or abusive in other ways (such as not paying for the services provided).
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    edited August 2015
    There are laws in place to address human trafficking. Maybe they need to be revamped but it's addressed (not well enough), whether it's legalized or not. easier to find women under duress when there is a licensing procedure and action taken against unlicensed sex workers, their employers, and customers.
    The police not enforcing crime is, again, a separate issue not directly tied to prostitution. Is it related in the ways you say it is? Yes. But it's not dependant on the state of prostitution law - it can improve or get worse under either scenario.
    A pimp in a legalized setting would be an abusive boss. Regulations would make it easier for sex workers to report those conditions, and give the system more ability to make the pimp/business owner accountable. it would give them access to worker's rights they don't currently have. Would also open the door to education and programs that don't exist now.
    Post edited by Drowned Out on
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    PJ_Soul said:

    I know there are several issues that tie into prostitution, but at its core, it's still a woman's choice.

    Well... not if it's a woman whose passport is being withheld by her pimp, or one who being controlled by means of her drug addictions, etc, etc etc. I would say that there are a lot of circumstances that actually make it not so much their choice, and some of those circumstances absolutely would not go away with legalization or decriminalization.
    Yeah have reservations as well. Mostly having young Inexperienced women that may turn to trade for quick money then regret it.

    Do think if legalized safer for those that do it.

    Positives and negatives on everything.

    In end I'll side with freedom for two consenting g adults to do as they please.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Posts: 12,845
    callen said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I know there are several issues that tie into prostitution, but at its core, it's still a woman's choice.

    Well... not if it's a woman whose passport is being withheld by her pimp, or one who being controlled by means of her drug addictions, etc, etc etc. I would say that there are a lot of circumstances that actually make it not so much their choice, and some of those circumstances absolutely would not go away with legalization or decriminalization.
    Yeah have reservations as well. Mostly having young Inexperienced women that may turn to trade for quick money then regret it.

    Do think if legalized safer for those that do it.

    Positives and negatives on everything.

    In end I'll side with freedom for two consenting g adults to do as they please.
    Yes, as do I, and likely as does PJ_Soul. The issue is the quality of the consent and whether it is genuinely free for many of those in that business.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388

    callen said:

    PJ_Soul said:

    I know there are several issues that tie into prostitution, but at its core, it's still a woman's choice.

    Well... not if it's a woman whose passport is being withheld by her pimp, or one who being controlled by means of her drug addictions, etc, etc etc. I would say that there are a lot of circumstances that actually make it not so much their choice, and some of those circumstances absolutely would not go away with legalization or decriminalization.
    Yeah have reservations as well. Mostly having young Inexperienced women that may turn to trade for quick money then regret it.

    Do think if legalized safer for those that do it.

    Positives and negatives on everything.

    In end I'll side with freedom for two consenting g adults to do as they please.
    Yes, as do I, and likely as does PJ_Soul. The issue is the quality of the consent and whether it is genuinely free for many of those in that business.
    Yes definitely a challenge on young girls still being coerced. but think in the end, legalizing is the best choice. Kinda like our drug war. Let's try something else. Currently not working.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
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