Trans-Gender Kids

JimmyV

oftenreading said:

JimmyV said:

oftenreading said:

JimmyV said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

Still not a good example, a Halloween costume is not normal school wear and a dress is. Gender specificity is the only real gripe in the issue.
The only reason a boy wearing a dress in school would be a distraction is because of parents (like you?) who try to dictate to their own children what is aacceptable in other people's children, thereby pushing societal and gender roles on kids who haven't yet discovered who they are and what they want to be.

No, the dress would be a distraction because even at age five children would realize that it was out of place. Much the same way they would if the boy showed up in a Halloween costume. Teacher's have a hard enough job without that kind of distraction. It's not about parents dictating what is acceptable or even about transgender children. (My apologies to the OP.) It is about a five year boy telling his parents he wants to wear something unacceptable to school. In that regard it is no different than pajamas or shorts in January. It is up to the parents to say no.

Maybe someday boys wearing dresses will be a societal norm. That day is not today.

So at age 5 children are capable of understanding gender roles but not where they fit in them?
Are you suggesting societal norms arise spontaneously?
It seems to me that they come from parents' interpretions of the things their children see and ask about.

I'm suggesting it is up to the parents to tell a five year old boy he cannot wear a dress to school. When that child is older and capable of making his own decisions, and if that child still wants to wear a dress to school, then good for that child. If doing so, in time, changes social norms, then good for society. But a five year old boy is not old enough to make such a decision, and shouldn't be used by his parents or anyone else in this way to make a statement.

By refusing to allow the child to wear a dress it is YOU who is the parent that is using the child to make a statement!

If you let your five year old boy wear a dress to school to prove a point then you are indeed using that boy to make a statement.

If you let him wear the dress simply because he wants to and you don't want to say no, then you are likely not saying no in other instances when you should.

Neither of these scenarios is one to be applauded.

Why would you assume that a parent who permits their child to wear a dress to school is unable to say no in other instances? Perhaps the parent simply doesn't view it as an issue of concern. Given all the many possible points of contention that can come up between parent and child, I would say that the details of clothing choice are generally among the least important. Even young children are capable of making some choices and should be given lots of opportunity to do so and to feel the effects of their choices (such as being too cold if they wear shorts in winter, too wet if they refuse to wear a rain jacket, etc.). Otherwise, they have no basis by which to judge how to make choices when they get older and the stakes are higher.

I wouldn't send a child to school in shorts to teach them the lesson that it is too cold. Nor would I send them without a rain jacket. Remember, we are talking about the specific example of sending a boy to school in a dress. There are plenty of situations where it makes sense that you would let the child learn the lessons you are speaking of. The backyard on a Saturday afternoon, a trip to the store, etc. School isn't one of them.

That you are going to say no sometimes and that they might not always understand why is also a lesson all children should learn. That isn't totalitarian or authoritarian. That is parenting. I do think that is lost here, and I do question what else these parents are saying yes to if they are saying yes to this.

School - not the right place to learn lessons.

But that's just it...there is a teacher there trying to do their job. They have a lesson plan and specific things they need to instill in their class. Whether the little boy should or shouldn't be wearing a dress or shorts isn't this teacher's job, it is the parent's job. They shipped the boy off to school for the teaching moment.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

JimmyV said:

oftenreading said:

JimmyV said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

Still not a good example, a Halloween costume is not normal school wear and a dress is. Gender specificity is the only real gripe in the issue.
The only reason a boy wearing a dress in school would be a distraction is because of parents (like you?) who try to dictate to their own children what is aacceptable in other people's children, thereby pushing societal and gender roles on kids who haven't yet discovered who they are and what they want to be.

No, the dress would be a distraction because even at age five children would realize that it was out of place. Much the same way they would if the boy showed up in a Halloween costume. Teacher's have a hard enough job without that kind of distraction. It's not about parents dictating what is acceptable or even about transgender children. (My apologies to the OP.) It is about a five year boy telling his parents he wants to wear something unacceptable to school. In that regard it is no different than pajamas or shorts in January. It is up to the parents to say no.

Maybe someday boys wearing dresses will be a societal norm. That day is not today.

So at age 5 children are capable of understanding gender roles but not where they fit in them?
Are you suggesting societal norms arise spontaneously?
It seems to me that they come from parents' interpretions of the things their children see and ask about.

I'm suggesting it is up to the parents to tell a five year old boy he cannot wear a dress to school. When that child is older and capable of making his own decisions, and if that child still wants to wear a dress to school, then good for that child. If doing so, in time, changes social norms, then good for society. But a five year old boy is not old enough to make such a decision, and shouldn't be used by his parents or anyone else in this way to make a statement.

By refusing to allow the child to wear a dress it is YOU who is the parent that is using the child to make a statement!

If you let your five year old boy wear a dress to school to prove a point then you are indeed using that boy to make a statement.

If you let him wear the dress simply because he wants to and you don't want to say no, then you are likely not saying no in other instances when you should.

Neither of these scenarios is one to be applauded.

Why would you assume that a parent who permits their child to wear a dress to school is unable to say no in other instances? Perhaps the parent simply doesn't view it as an issue of concern. Given all the many possible points of contention that can come up between parent and child, I would say that the details of clothing choice are generally among the least important. Even young children are capable of making some choices and should be given lots of opportunity to do so and to feel the effects of their choices (such as being too cold if they wear shorts in winter, too wet if they refuse to wear a rain jacket, etc.). Otherwise, they have no basis by which to judge how to make choices when they get older and the stakes are higher.

I wouldn't send a child to school in shorts to teach them the lesson that it is too cold. Nor would I send them without a rain jacket. Remember, we are talking about the specific example of sending a boy to school in a dress. There are plenty of situations where it makes sense that you would let the child learn the lessons you are speaking of. The backyard on a Saturday afternoon, a trip to the store, etc. School isn't one of them.

That you are going to say no sometimes and that they might not always understand why is also a lesson all children should learn. That isn't totalitarian or authoritarian. That is parenting. I do think that is lost here, and I do question what else these parents are saying yes to if they are saying yes to this.

The decision to put the brakes on a kid's desire for wearing a dress to school is not a short sighted conformist action as much as it is protection. 5 year olds need active parenting and for the parent that concerns themselves with shielding their child from unnecessary harm... they would likely keep the dress for other occasions.

callen

Think one of our biggest weaknesses as humans is caring what others think.

I like socks with flip flops. Get ridiculed by family and loved ones. . Thing is when I question why it's a problem get no real reason. Humans.

callen

JimmyV said:

Again, apologies to the OP. We've drifted a bit from the original topic.

It's somewhat related. Humans preconceived notions and comfort in ones realities.

rgambs

As to the OP, I do think this child is too young for this. It is perfectly reasonable and normal for a child to have these feelings, but the assignment of the title "transgender" is jumping the gun. It does seem to be something the parents are pushing onto the child.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Think one of our biggest weaknesses as humans is caring what others think.

I like socks with flip flops. Get ridiculed by family and loved ones. . Thing is when I question why it's a problem get no real reason. Humans.

You forgot to mention the fanny pack accessory that's missing from this mental picture I now have of you!

A guy can keep everything in a fanny pack- pens, novels, blenders... what an outstanding item I fear to wear (I guess I'm human!).

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Think one of our biggest weaknesses as humans is caring what others think.

I like socks with flip flops. Get ridiculed by family and loved ones. . Thing is when I question why it's a problem get no real reason. Humans.

You forgot to mention the fanny pack accessory that's missing from this mental picture I now have of you!

A guy can keep everything in a fanny pack- pens, novels, blenders... what an outstanding item I fear to wear (I guess I'm human!).

Ha.

Travel light so no fanny pack.

Dirtie_Frank

I think this discussion is all relevant. As I mentioned I have 3 kids, the first two are girls and my son being the youngest. He plays with his sisters toys all the time at first I thought I would have a problem, but it is going to happen. He is only 15 months old and there are far more girl toys to play with and he really does not play with them just throws them or what not. My girls love to play sports, climb and do all sorts of things. I would not consider they are showing signs of gender confusion. They are just being kids

I read in a comment from the original story on Yahoo that some people call what the parents did to the child is a form of child abuse. I can see that. I cannot see how any child can just come out and say, if a boy, I am a girl and the opposite for girls. It just makes me feel there is some sort of push being placed on this child. If they are older like 16 and that might be too young, I might see how this is their choice and not something from the parents. I think I am rambling so I will stop now.

rgambs

Dirtie_Frank said:

I think this discussion is all relevant. As I mentioned I have 3 kids, the first two are girls and my son being the youngest. He plays with his sisters toys all the time at first I thought I would have a problem, but it is going to happen. He is only 15 months old and there are far more girl toys to play with and he really does not play with them just throws them or what not. My girls love to play sports, climb and do all sorts of things. I would not consider they are showing signs of gender confusion. They are just being kids

I read in a comment from the original story on Yahoo that some people call what the parents did to the child is a form of child abuse. I can see that. I cannot see how any child can just come out and say, if a boy, I am a girl and the opposite for girls. It just makes me feel there is some sort of push being placed on this child. If they are older like 16 and that might be too young, I might see how this is their choice and not something from the parents. I think I am rambling so I will stop now.

16 is definitely not too young. At 16 you have a sexual identity and therefore are capable of making judgements about orientation and whatnot.

I think much of the problem stems from societal gender expectations. Your daughters who are perhaps "tomboys" (all the best women were tomboy girls!) might feel more gender confused if we still lived in an oppressive society that outlawed that sort of behavior. It is common for a girl to want to be a boy and vice versa, but it is more associated with gender roles than the physiology of their genitals. When that comes into question for a child I think it is a true case of gender misalignment that will last.

oftenreading

As for the OP - it is not just common, it's the norm for people who end up being transgendered as adults to have identified themselves as being the in the "wrong" body by a very young age, usually far before seven. If you talk with adults who are transgender then a large part of their pain has been that they have known this since early childhood and went through their whole development feeling this sense of wrongness.

Of course, a lot of young children have fluid identities; it's part of childhood. Lots of kids will temporarily want to be of the opposite sex because of the perceived benefits, just like lots of kids will desperately want to be a kitty, a unicorn, or Spiderman. Even more kids (actually, probably all) will play at being the opposite sex at times, will enjoy the dress-up box at preschool, etc. None of this is the same as true gender dysphoria.

That's not to say that young kids with gender dysphoria should be pushed into particular actions, and certainly not irreversible actions; luckily, current medical guidelines prohibit this. With a thoughtful, supportive but not gung-ho approach all will become clear in the end.

Bentleyspop

oftenreading said:

As for the OP - it is not just common, it's the norm for people who end up being transgendered as adults to have identified themselves as being the in the "wrong" body by a very young age, usually far before seven. If you talk with adults who are transgender then a large part of their pain has been that they have known this since early childhood and went through their whole development feeling this sense of wrongness.

Of course, a lot of young children have fluid identities; it's part of childhood. Lots of kids will temporarily want to be of the opposite sex because of the perceived benefits, just like lots of kids will desperately want to be a kitty, a unicorn, or Spiderman. Even more kids (actually, probably all) will play at being the opposite sex at times, will enjoy the dress-up box at preschool, etc. None of this is the same as true gender dysphoria.

That's not to say that young kids with gender dysphoria should be pushed into particular actions, and certainly not irreversible actions; luckily, current medical guidelines prohibit this. With a thoughtful, supportive but not gung-ho approach all will become clear in the end.

Very well put.

Thanks

PJ_Soul

Children feel their gender identity from a very young age. I've seen it with my own eyes. The sense isn't as strong with everyone that young, but particularly insightful and self-aware children can definitely have a strong gender identity.... Think about it this way. If a kid were identifying as heterosexual person, as most do, would you think they were too young for that?? NO. You wouldn't. So why is it too young for a transgendered person?? There is no difference.

OP, can you imagine how totally fucked up a person would be if they waited until adulthood before considering their gender identity?? Did you wait until you were an adult before identifying as whatever orientation you are? Did you parents prevent you from expressing your gender identity when you were a child (I assume you're heterosexual)? I doubt it. Imagine if they had? Perhaps forced you to act like a girl (or guy, not sure what sex you are) when you didn't want to and feel like it was right? Wow, that would really fuck any kid up. Thank goodness parents are becoming more aware of these issues so that they can deal with their kids' gender identification issues properly from as young an age as possible.

tempo_n_groove

Not sure if there was a newer thread so I will put this here.
Banning Trans from competing against their same genders.  Female only.

Am I that out of the loop that there is a large amount of trans women competing in HS now?

https://abc7ny.com/transgender-athletes-trans-athlete-ban-bruce-blakeman/14456759/

OnWis97

I think there was a transgendered swimmer who won some college meet (she was at Penn) and the cis woman who finished second (Kentucky) has made a career off of being indignant about it.

So every anecdote is magnified by 1,000. I have no idea how common it is but it's not nearly as common as some will have you believe.

Gern Blansten

I'm completely for whatever people want to identify as or transition to but I don't agree with men competing as women and/or vice versa.

Maybe I'm too old but it just isn't fair either way.

OnWis97

Gern Blansten said:

I'm completely for whatever people want to identify as or transition to but I don't agree with men competing as women and/or vice versa.

Maybe I'm too old but it just isn't fair either way.

I get that...but the right is making it the headline issue (which is probably smart, given that lots of people will agree). 

But it's almost like:
"It's not OK to beat up trans people."
"Keep them out of women's sports."

The other (predictable as hell) thing is that they say they're "saving women's sports" but they're also accusing women of being transgendered. This came up a few months ago out of the blue with Katie Ledecky out of the blue. Ultimately, they're probably more likely to destroy women's sports.

Gern Blansten

OnWis97 said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'm completely for whatever people want to identify as or transition to but I don't agree with men competing as women and/or vice versa.

Maybe I'm too old but it just isn't fair either way.

I get that...but the right is making it the headline issue (which is probably smart, given that lots of people will agree). 

But it's almost like:
"It's not OK to beat up trans people."
"Keep them out of women's sports."

The other (predictable as hell) thing is that they say they're "saving women's sports" but they're also accusing women of being transgendered. This came up a few months ago out of the blue with Katie Ledecky out of the blue. Ultimately, they're probably more likely to destroy women's sports.

I remember that...crazy. And I agree, they make it a left/right thing like the border

tempo_n_groove

OnWis97 said:

I think there was a transgendered swimmer who won some college meet (she was at Penn) and the cis woman who finished second (Kentucky) has made a career off of being indignant about it.

So every anecdote is magnified by 1,000. I have no idea how common it is but it's not nearly as common as some will have you believe.

I'd be pissed too.  I am still curious if it happens all that often?  Is this law ahead of the curve?  Fear mongering? 

Gern Blansten

There are candidates running right now that say things like "I'm for men using men's restrooms and women using women's", etc.

So fucking stupid and hateful

Halifax2TheMax

It’s just speech, right?

https://www.boston.com/news/crime/2024/02/22/texas-man-sentenced-after-threatening-boston-doctor-over-trans-healthcare/