Trans-Gender Kids

Dirtie_Frank

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/laverne-cox-meets-7-year-old-transgender-girl-words-of-wisdom-161812805.html

The Above story is about a seven year old trans-gender boy. Now I am all for adults doing what they feel is right, but how does a child at 7 know that he is a girl. OI also read that the child has been identified as trans-gender at the age of 3. Are you fucking kidding me? 3? I have three children between the ages of 7 and 15 months. They barely can decide what ice cream they like let alone what gender they are and at 3. I have to find a source for the choice at 3, but I do recall a story on Rolling Stones about a trans gender at 3. I know this is their child but isn't this a bit much?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Dirtie_Frank said:

https://celebrity.yahoo.com/blogs/celeb-news/laverne-cox-meets-7-year-old-transgender-girl-words-of-wisdom-161812805.html

The Above story is about a seven year old trans-gender boy. Now I am all for adults doing what they feel is right, but how does a child at 7 know that he is a girl. OI also read that the child has been identified as trans-gender at the age of 3. Are you fucking kidding me? 3? I have three children between the ages of 7 and 15 months. They barely can decide what ice cream they like let alone what gender they are and at 3. I have to find a source for the choice at 3, but I do recall a story on Rolling Stones about a trans gender at 3. I know this is their child but isn't this a bit much?

I tend to agree with you. This doesn't seem right for some of the things you listed; however I truly don't know enough about gender confusion to make any statements with any force of conviction.

Dirtie_Frank

Thirty. I try not to get too wrapped up about what others do with their kids, because I do not want people telling me about what I am doing. However, if this started at 3 I see this as a form of child abuse. My son plays with my daughters toys but he is 15 months and there are more girl toys. This does not mean he is gender confused.

oftenreading

From what I've read, virtually all people who are transgender know this from a very young age. They have a strong feeling that their bodies and their innate gender don't match up from the time they first start to have an awareness of what their biological sex is and what that means in the world. Of course, the confusing part is that young children also have very mutable identities, and can seem to strongly identify with superheroes, animals, and all sorts of unlikely things. The difference with trans people is that the gender identification is consistent over a long time, whereas the identification of young kids with things or people they strongly like tends to be fleeting.

A possible complicating factor these days could be the (very unusual) instance of parents pushing a trans agenda on their a non-trans little kid who has typical identity fluidity. I'm sure this wouldn't occur very often but some people really seem to jump on bandwagons.

Dirtie_Frank

I am not sure if this is the same kid but here is the Rolling Stones Article from 2013:

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/about-a-girl-coy-mathis-fight-to-change-change-gender-20131028

Thirty Bills Unpaid

oftenreading said:

From what I've read, virtually all people who are transgender know this from a very young age. They have a strong feeling that their bodies and their innate gender don't match up from the time they first start to have an awareness of what their biological sex is and what that means in the world. Of course, the confusing part is that young children also have very mutable identities, and can seem to strongly identify with superheroes, animals, and all sorts of unlikely things. The difference with trans people is that the gender identification is consistent over a long time, whereas the identification of young kids with things or people they strongly like tends to be fleeting.

A possible complicating factor these days could be the (very unusual) instance of parents pushing a trans agenda on their a non-trans little kid who has typical identity fluidity. I'm sure this wouldn't occur very often but some people really seem to jump on bandwagon.

As Frank said, I am not inclined to think a small child knows they are not the gender they were born to when they simply don't know much of anything.

The last statement is something I thought of when reading Frank's post. Having very little faith in humanity, I made a very uninformed and judgemental opinion that these parents might be another set of doughheads that might have been motivated by a trend and for publicity: they've already sought it versus contently living life and feeling as if they did what was necessary and critical for the development and happiness of their child.

callen

Think the key is to let the kid do what makes them comfortable. Do agree they shouldn't be labeled saying they are transgendered at such an early age. Let them develop.

brianlux

I agree, Callen, let them be what they are. I think it's a big mistake to try to force kids to be something they are not.

JimmyV

I don't think seven years old is old enough for any kid to know what they are. It seems irresponsible to just let kids do whatever makes them feel comfortable. Stand up, be a parent, and say no.

Dirtie_Frank

I can see perhaps at 16 or 17, but even then it is hard for kids to know who they are, but then again they are supposed to know their track for college by then. That is a whole different discussion.

brianlux

JimmyV said:

I don't think seven years old is old enough for any kid to know what they are. It seems irresponsible to just let kids do whatever makes them feel comfortable. Stand up, be a parent, and say no.

I used to know a woman who had a neighbor who's son (probably about 5 years old) asked if he could wear his sister's pink dress to school on his first ever day at school. They said he could. Does that make the kid transgender? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that the parents knew this was sincerely what the kid wanted and let him do it I thought was cool. It's also cool that the kid's dad is famous but never used the incident to draw attention to himself.

JimmyV

brianlux said:

JimmyV said:

I don't think seven years old is old enough for any kid to know what they are. It seems irresponsible to just let kids do whatever makes them feel comfortable. Stand up, be a parent, and say no.

I used to know a woman who had a neighbor who's son (probably about 5 years old) asked if he could wear his sister's pink dress to school on his first ever day at school. They said he could. Does that make the kid transgender? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that the parents knew this was sincerely what the kid wanted and let him do it I thought was cool. It's also cool that the kid's dad is famous but never used the incident to draw attention to himself.

Disagree. The five year old shouldn't be deciding what they wear to school. The parents should. When the child gets older and can make their own decisions, great, they can do what they want. At five those parents should have said no.

dignin

JimmyV said:

brianlux said:

JimmyV said:

I don't think seven years old is old enough for any kid to know what they are. It seems irresponsible to just let kids do whatever makes them feel comfortable. Stand up, be a parent, and say no.

I used to know a woman who had a neighbor who's son (probably about 5 years old) asked if he could wear his sister's pink dress to school on his first ever day at school. They said he could. Does that make the kid transgender? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that the parents knew this was sincerely what the kid wanted and let him do it I thought was cool. It's also cool that the kid's dad is famous but never used the incident to draw attention to himself.

Disagree. The five year old shouldn't be deciding what they wear to school. The parents should. When the child gets older and can make their own decisions, great, they can do what they want. At five those parents should have said no.

The parents did decide. You just didn't like their choice. That's on you.

JimmyV

dignin said:

JimmyV said:

brianlux said:

JimmyV said:

I don't think seven years old is old enough for any kid to know what they are. It seems irresponsible to just let kids do whatever makes them feel comfortable. Stand up, be a parent, and say no.

I used to know a woman who had a neighbor who's son (probably about 5 years old) asked if he could wear his sister's pink dress to school on his first ever day at school. They said he could. Does that make the kid transgender? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that the parents knew this was sincerely what the kid wanted and let him do it I thought was cool. It's also cool that the kid's dad is famous but never used the incident to draw attention to himself.

Disagree. The five year old shouldn't be deciding what they wear to school. The parents should. When the child gets older and can make their own decisions, great, they can do what they want. At five those parents should have said no.

The parents did decide. You just didn't like their choice. That's on you.

And when the kid grows up never having been said no to, that's on them.

brianlux

dignin said:

JimmyV said:

brianlux said:

JimmyV said:

I don't think seven years old is old enough for any kid to know what they are. It seems irresponsible to just let kids do whatever makes them feel comfortable. Stand up, be a parent, and say no.

I used to know a woman who had a neighbor who's son (probably about 5 years old) asked if he could wear his sister's pink dress to school on his first ever day at school. They said he could. Does that make the kid transgender? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact that the parents knew this was sincerely what the kid wanted and let him do it I thought was cool. It's also cool that the kid's dad is famous but never used the incident to draw attention to himself.

Disagree. The five year old shouldn't be deciding what they wear to school. The parents should. When the child gets older and can make their own decisions, great, they can do what they want. At five those parents should have said no.

The parents did decide. You just didn't like their choice. That's on you.

Yeah, sorry JimmyV, I have to agree with dignin. The kids folks are bright, creative, good people. They made a conscious choice.

JimmyV

I want to wear a dress to school = I want to wear pajamas to school = I want to wear shorts in January to school. Part of parenting is saying no to all of these requests. The kid would not have been adversely affected had they not been allowed to wear the dress.

dignin

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

JimmyV

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

hedonist

At such a young age, it can be nothing else but the parent(s). Children need to develop with nurturing, not by molding or with agenda. They also need to be free to experiment by their own gut and, granted, limited perspective - with guidance and common sense, of course. But, not every kid's temporary road or discovery is an "AHA!" moment that should cement their path. We don't even do that as adults, why apply it to these tender beings with so little time and perspective under their belts?

callen

Could care less what others want to do and would tell my kids the same. If they came home with story of a boy wearing a dress it would be a teaching moment. Then hopefully next day they would stick up for the kid.

Agree there should be boundaries and likely would steer my child not to want to wear the dress and why but if they insisted. At home have at it.

dignin

How about we drop the double standard. There was a time when little Suzy would have driven the class to "distraction" when she came to school wearing pants. A long time ago. In time we will look back and wonder what all the fuss is about.

hedonist

Is this really about what a child wants to wear or so-called gender-specific toys to play with?

Katharine Hepburn was an icon for women wearing pants; has nothing to do with identifying as a man.

These things are - or can be - inconsequential. I don't doubt some have sensed themselves at a young age, but is it so far-fetched for the child's parents to not rush things along? Patience, talking about and through it, leaving things be as your child ages and re-considers, or even affirms?

People, especially children, need time to cook a bit before being tossed out of the pan too soon and declared a specific dish.

brianlux

There is a big difference between telling a kid know regarding important things like safety and honesty and another thing to say no to interests or inclinations. When I was a kid, my parents said no A LOT! Even to the point where I resented it at times, but they were looking our for my welfare. But, when I was very young (two or three or four) I told my parents I wanted a doll and they gave me one. It was a girl doll and that was my favorite toy for years. I don't see that as being a bad thing at all.

Who Princess

Interesting timing. I just read this article yesterday. It's long but I learned some things from it. It's about a clinic that works with transgender kids and teens.

star-telegram.com/living/health-fitness/article23863225.html

To give a few points from it that may apply to this thread:

*Children and teens who identify as the opposite gender go through extensive counseling before being admitted to the program and throughout the process.
*Some children change their minds about being trans. Teens rarely do.
*Trans surgery can only be performed on adults. It's illegal for minors.
*Medications that help kids transition can be stopped without permanently affecting them.
*It's hoped that if kids are helped to transition while they are young, with counseling and acceptance, they will be well-adjusted adults. Until now, many trans adults have problems because they have had to struggle with this issue throughout their lives.

My first thought on the idea of trans kids and teens is Woah, they are too young to make these kinds of choices. After reading the article, I don't know, but at least I don't feel that they are being coerced into being trans.

rgambs

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

Still not a good example, a Halloween costume is not normal school wear and a dress is. Gender specificity is the only real gripe in the issue.
The only reason a boy wearing a dress in school would be a distraction is because of parents (like you?) who try to dictate to their own children what is aacceptable in other people's children, thereby pushing societal and gender roles on kids who haven't yet discovered who they are and what they want to be.

rgambs

When people want to be critical of parents for pushing alternate gender roles on children it comes off as though the only problem they have is with the roles themselves.

rgambs

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

What if it's a pleated plaid skirt?

JimmyV

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

Still not a good example, a Halloween costume is not normal school wear and a dress is. Gender specificity is the only real gripe in the issue.
The only reason a boy wearing a dress in school would be a distraction is because of parents (like you?) who try to dictate to their own children what is aacceptable in other people's children, thereby pushing societal and gender roles on kids who haven't yet discovered who they are and what they want to be.

No, the dress would be a distraction because even at age five children would realize that it was out of place. Much the same way they would if the boy showed up in a Halloween costume. Teacher's have a hard enough job without that kind of distraction. It's not about parents dictating what is acceptable or even about transgender children. (My apologies to the OP.) It is about a five year boy telling his parents he wants to wear something unacceptable to school. In that regard it is no different than pajamas or shorts in January. It is up to the parents to say no.

Maybe someday boys wearing dresses will be a societal norm. That day is not today.

FoxyRedLa

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

Still not a good example, a Halloween costume is not normal school wear and a dress is. Gender specificity is the only real gripe in the issue.
The only reason a boy wearing a dress in school would be a distraction is because of parents (like you?) who try to dictate to their own children what is aacceptable in other people's children, thereby pushing societal and gender roles on kids who haven't yet discovered who they are and what they want to be.

Wow.

rgambs

JimmyV said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

Still not a good example, a Halloween costume is not normal school wear and a dress is. Gender specificity is the only real gripe in the issue.
The only reason a boy wearing a dress in school would be a distraction is because of parents (like you?) who try to dictate to their own children what is aacceptable in other people's children, thereby pushing societal and gender roles on kids who haven't yet discovered who they are and what they want to be.

No, the dress would be a distraction because even at age five children would realize that it was out of place. Much the same way they would if the boy showed up in a Halloween costume. Teacher's have a hard enough job without that kind of distraction. It's not about parents dictating what is acceptable or even about transgender children. (My apologies to the OP.) It is about a five year boy telling his parents he wants to wear something unacceptable to school. In that regard it is no different than pajamas or shorts in January. It is up to the parents to say no.

Maybe someday boys wearing dresses will be a societal norm. That day is not today.

So at age 5 children are capable of understanding gender roles but not where they fit in them?
Are you suggesting societal norms arise spontaneously?
It seems to me that they come from parents' interpretions of the things their children see and ask about.

rgambs

FoxyRedLa said:

rgambs said:

JimmyV said:

dignin said:

Wearing a dress to school isn't the same as wearing pajamas or shorts in January. Dress vs. Jeans is gender specific, that's what you have a problem with, the blurring of those lines. It's okay to admit it offends you. But you shouldn't be offended. It's no big deal.

The only thing that offends me is parents who are unwilling or unable to say no to their children. Part of the deal you signed up for when you had kids. If you are unable to tell your child "No, you cannot wear that dress to school" then you are probably unable to tell your child no about much else.

You don't like the shorts or pajamas, then how about this: Wearing a dress to school = wearing a Halloween costume to school in April. Both are inappropriate because both are distractions. A boy wearing a dress to school is a distraction that would disrupt any classroom of five year old's in this country. If you want to let your child run around the backyard in a dress, go for it. Don't send them to school that way and impact other children.

The problem here isn't the dress or the child, it is the parents. Thanks though for trying to declare what I have a problem with and what offends me. We can't all be as enlightened as you.

Still not a good example, a Halloween costume is not normal school wear and a dress is. Gender specificity is the only real gripe in the issue.
The only reason a boy wearing a dress in school would be a distraction is because of parents (like you?) who try to dictate to their own children what is aacceptable in other people's children, thereby pushing societal and gender roles on kids who haven't yet discovered who they are and what they want to be.

Wow.

Sweet contribution.