If we’re gonna sit here and post tweets please also post the chants and scenes from the Palestinian demonstrations as well.
To be fair, on Facebook, what you see is based on what you've engaged with and who your friends are. On Twitter, it's what you've engaged with and who you follow. Depending on consumption patterns, it could be pretty tricky to find a steady stream of content that deviates so far from your own viewpoints (based on what you've revealed about yourself to Twitter). I also don't put the onus on mickeyrat to argue against a point he's trying to draw attention to - that's for others who know enough to believe it false, and who care enough to rebut.
@mickeyrat - feel free not to answer this (I'm only asking out of genuine curiosity), but do you see a plurality of opinions on the situation in Gaza on your Twitter, or mostly pretty consistent?
I see about a 70/30 split on my feed in support for Israel/Palestine.
If they would only accept Judeo- Christianity,, they could simply part the Red Sea and walk. It's their own fault.
But if they are go that route and turn around to see if they are being followed, they will turn into pillars of salt. You just can't win when it come to religion.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
If we’re gonna sit here and post tweets please also post the chants and scenes from the Palestinian demonstrations as well.
To be fair, on Facebook, what you see is based on what you've engaged with and who your friends are. On Twitter, it's what you've engaged with and who you follow. Depending on consumption patterns, it could be pretty tricky to find a steady stream of content that deviates so far from your own viewpoints (based on what you've revealed about yourself to Twitter). I also don't put the onus on mickeyrat to argue against a point he's trying to draw attention to - that's for others who know enough to believe it false, and who care enough to rebut.
@mickeyrat - feel free not to answer this (I'm only asking out of genuine curiosity), but do you see a plurality of opinions on the situation in Gaza on your Twitter, or mostly pretty consistent?
split. fairly evenly.
the fairest is the condemnation of hamas, israels heavier hand and the reminder that essentially its the civilians of all walks of life bearing the brunt of this.
in no way shape or form do I believe the actions taken on Saturday were justfied. In part understood where it came from but to go full on isis is a bad move.
the tweets reflecting the callousness toward palestinian lives are important to share in my opinion to counter a narrow viewpoint by a couple here.
Gaza will be rubble by Monday. Close to 2 million stuck in the midst of it.
We heard during 9/11 the bloodlust revenge mindset here. Seeing it there now, directly from israeli government officials. and in part from elected officials here too.
All of it is sickening and further cements an opinion that the earth would be better off without humans on it mucking up the place.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Solution: Saudi Arabia, the region and the world would be a better place if the Saudi's had invested $2B in Gaza for infrastructure, jobs, education, healthcare, etc. rather than giving it to Jared Dear Boy. Similarly, the US would be better off getting off oil and telling the two major players with a peace agreement between them, Israel and Egypt, that we're not going to subsidize them anymore to the tune of $3.3B and $1.3B per year, respectively, and we're cutting your budget 10% a year for 10 years until its zero. So, you've got 10 years to figure out what the hell you're going to do to learn to live, trade, thrive with one another. Enough is enough. Promise aid to Palestine contingent upon renouncing terrorism, recognizing Israel's right to exist, coming to peace terms and working toward policing your own. Peace includes Iran, Syria, the gulf states and the Arab League of nations with a western pledge to stop meddling in their affairs and butting the fuck out. Violence, terrorism and threats to areas outside the region will be met with consequences. In other words, take care of your own and be good neighbors. If Europe can do it after WW2 with the creation of the EU, certainly the ME can do it. A ME EU, if you will. Countries that trade together and are economically tied together flourish.
Not easy, easier said than done, given the history, and a pipe dream. I realize there's a ton of shit between the parties and history, inclusive of US meddling, etc. What's happening now is another generation of Israelis and Palestinians hating each other and wishing their demise. I won't live long enough to see peace in the region. Petra, the Nile River and the Pyramids, and all the other amazing historical locations are a bucket list item. Sad.
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Solution: Saudi Arabia, the region and the world would be a better place if the Saudi's had invested $2B in Gaza for infrastructure, jobs, education, healthcare, etc. rather than giving it to Jared Dear Boy. Similarly, the US would be better off getting off oil and telling the two major players with a peace agreement between them, Israel and Egypt, that we're not going to subsidize them anymore to the tune of $3.3B and $1.3B per year, respectively, and we're cutting your budget 10% a year for 10 years until its zero. So, you've got 10 years to figure out what the hell you're going to do to learn to live, trade, thrive with one another. Enough is enough. Promise aid to Palestine contingent upon renouncing terrorism, recognizing Israel's right to exist, coming to peace terms and working toward policing your own. Peace includes Iran, Syria, the gulf states and the Arab League of nations with a western pledge to stop meddling in their affairs and butting the fuck out. Violence, terrorism and threats to areas outside the region will be met with consequences. In other words, take care of your own and be good neighbors. If Europe can do it after WW2 with the creation of the EU, certainly the ME can do it. A ME EU, if you will. Countries that trade together and are economically tied together flourish.
Not easy, easier said than done, given the history, and a pipe dream. I realize there's a ton of shit between the parties and history, inclusive of US meddling, etc. What's happening now is another generation of Israelis and Palestinians hating each other and wishing their demise. I won't live long enough to see peace in the region. Petra, the Nile River and the Pyramids, and all the other amazing historical locations are a bucket list item. Sad.
Impressive! That makes damn good sense. I could not have come up with a better plan.
Sadly, we are not a logical or sensible species. Inability to understand the sensibility of delayed gratification, not enough wisdom to make good choices, respecting others cultural differences, not letting religion interfere with international affairs, extreme nationalism... all of this and more stand in the way. But offering up sensible solutions might at least push things in a better direction.
Thanks for taking the time to post your ideas!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew
And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2.
Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.
For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.
Today,
"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"
Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]
In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]
In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.
Based on Israel's history (1967 border expansion post-Six Day War, assisting construction of settlements within Gaza still taking place today), is it wrong to think Israel would seize more land if it were emptied of Palestinian people tomorrow?
They handed the keys to Gaza 15 years ago, and treat the west bank in accordance with 2 signed treaties, that were violated by Palestine.
BTW, Palestine(west bank) was never a sovereign nation if my memory is correct
Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims.
1. My statement equated to "Egypt has precedence to believe Israel would seize land if vacated of Palestinians" - I even referenced historical events. Yes, Israel has given land back in their past too, but I was (pretty obviously) expressing why Egypt has grounds to say what they did. Am I wrong?
2. I didn't say Palestine was a sovereign nation (nor do I think I even implied it). I'm not sure what point you're trying to make/argue in this statement.
3. "Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims."
As a Jew in a Jewish community, I'm all too familiar with the "I know more than you, you've been fed lies and believed them, so why don't you just shut it, simpleton" that comes out as a unified voice from the community whenever a criticism of Israeli behaviours is lobbed.
My conclusion has been pretty simple - if someone wants to debate with you, but wants you to know first and foremost how much superior they and their opinions are - they want you to accept their opinions carte blanche, and they are disinterested in a genuine debate. And if they're disinterested in a genuine debate, I'm not interested at all. So I'm out. Y'all have fun - none of this matters and none of this changes anyways.
I was attempting to comment based on facts and not speculate. I do not recall using the word superior. However, it was horrible reading this topic last Saturday as the news of the attacks unfolded, I have checked many times and found zero expressions of sympathy towards the 1500 dead Israeli civilians on that specific day. Only comments about occupation, which as you know, is quite some distance from Gaza. And I was even corrected by someone by not citing fatah is not the same as Hamas.
At the time I commented before your reply, I was surprised you would ask if Israel were interested in taking over Gaza. Since you seem interested in a reply, I will guess that I am unaware of any evidence that any country in the region wants anything to do with that land.
given the news today, that Israel wants Gaza civilians evacuated to the south, it made me consider that a DMZ in northern Gaza might be an option. If that’s true that would be a partial yes.
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?
the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?
have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?
the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?
have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.
What haters of Israel? Expressing sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians and understanding of why some people there would lash out does not make someone a hater of Israel.
Gaza is not a country or a government, how could Gaza invade anything? I'm pretty sure Hamas attacked Israel.
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?
the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?
have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.
Those treaties made in the 90's are irrelevant, L. So much has changed since then and nothing that went down 30 years ago is going to change a thing here. Bush, Obama, that is all old news in this fast changing world.
You are not making your case any stronger by using words like "left wing haters of Israel". How many people on this thread do you see as being Israel haters? Obviously not me. Most of the comments that have been critical of Israel are not critical of the country but, rather, are critical of Netanyau and his people, not the Israeli people. No one here wanted them to be killed. And if I were to say you are a hater of Palestine, I would hope that would be incorrect and that, in fact, you hate the Hamas, not all Palestinians. Yes?
I don't know what you have invested in all this, but I'm guessing, as with one or two others here as well, you have some strong ties to Israel. That's fine- some people are more nationalistic than I am, but I accept that they (and possible you) are. But by now it must be obvious to you that being an Israeli nationalist and not recognizing or at least acknowledging that Israeli leaders have dirty hands in this thing too, you are going to continue to be unhappy and frustrated with this thread and change no ones mind. My own tendency to be at least somewhat defensive of Palestinians is because so much of what is being projected in the news and opinion pieces, etc. does not recognize that this is a two way street and that sometimes the collision on that street is caused by aggression from one side, and sometimes the other.
So in a nutshell, my own believe is that the powers that be on both sides are full of shit and it's their reckless actions that leads to the suffering of many innocent civilians. Fuck the Israeli leaders and fuck the Hamas, I say. Save the people.
One last thing: I have a feeling I might be losing a few friends here as a result of having posted my thoughts here. All I can think of to say about that is this quote:
"I would never betray a friend to serve a cause. Never reject a friend to help an institution. Great nations may fall into ruin before I would sell a friend to save them."
-Edward Abbey
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
They are in big trouble, whatever they are, based on what we are hearing.
I understand the desire to react and bomb people back to the stone age. Felt that way after 911 Thankfully we didn't do that, the world was a different place, although we did certainly have a strong reaction. Lost so many lives on our side, and it got us pretty much nothing.
War sucks.
Edit - I live in a predominantly Jewish city, almost all of our neighbors, friends, friends of kids, kids on teams we coach, etc, are Jewish. Our schools have had issues this week with the McCarthy type of call outs against anyone who says anything other than "I stand with Isreal" and our kids' schools all have cops all over outside. I very much feel for the losses for the people of Isreal, the people that our community is connected to and the loss of human life.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight
By MIKE CORDER and JULIA FRANKEL
Yesterday
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The deadly attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians and the devastating Israeli airstrikes and blockade of Gaza have raised accusations among international legal experts that both sides were violating international law.
A United Nations Commission of Inquiry said it has been “collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides” since the violence started last week. That evidence could be added to an investigation by the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas in past conflicts.
“Intentional targeting of civilians and civilian objects without a military necessary reason to do so is a war crime, period,” said David Crane, an American international law expert and the founding chief prosecutor of the United Nations’ Special Court for Sierra Leone. “And that’s a standard that both sides are held to under international law.”
Even Israel’s staunchest ally has sounded a note of caution.
U.S. President Joe Biden, at a meeting with Jewish leaders Wednesday, said he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “that it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just — I don’t know how to explain it — that exists is that they operate by the rules of war — the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”
DID HAMAS COMMIT WAR CRIMES?
After breaking through Israel’s security barrier early Saturday morning, Hamas militants gunned down entire families, including women and young children, in border communities around the Gaza Strip. Israel’s health service said it extricated the bodies of over a hundred community members from Kibbutz Be’eri. Militants attacked the Tribe of Nova music festival, gunning down people as they desperately sought refuge.
Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director of Human Rights Watch, pointed to Hamas “shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, including women and children — undeniably grave abuses of international law, for which there’s no justification.”
In an analysis published on the international law website Opinio Juris, Cornell Law School professor Jens David Ohlin wrote that the Hamas attacks amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity under the International Criminal Court’s founding Rome Statute.
Rights group Amnesty International called for accountability.
“Massacring civilians is a war crime and there can be no justification for these reprehensible attacks,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s secretary-general.
“These crimes must be investigated as part of the International Criminal Court’s ongoing investigation into crimes committed by all parties in the current conflict,” Callamard said.
IS ISRAEL’S MILITARY RESPONSE LEGAL?
The Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the Hamas -ruled Gaza Strip with airstrikes and blocked deliveries of food, water, fuel and electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. The bombardment already has killed about 1,800 people in Gaza, including U.N. workers, paramedics and journalists.
Experts say the blockade, which is hitting the territory's more than 2 million residents, violates international law. "Collective punishment is a war crime. Israel is doing that by cutting electricity, water, food, blocking aid from entering the Gaza Strip,” Shakir said.
Early Friday, Israel’s military directed the evacuation of some 1 million civilians living in the northern Gaza Strip ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. Hamas called on residents to remain in their homes.
The International Committee of the Red Cross said the order to leave along with the siege "are not compatible with international humanitarian law.”
Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, also called the order illegal. It is "not an evacuation opportunity, it’s an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime,” he said.
Israel has also faced criticism for its widespread airstrikes razing large areas of Gaza since the Hamas attacks.
But Crane said that Hamas’ base in the densely populated area makes any Israeli military action extremely difficult.
“They’re almost in an impossible situation. Every time they fire an artillery piece, an aircraft fires missiles and stuff at a legitimate target, they’re going to collaterally kill civilians,” he said.
The Israeli military has “this challenge where you have one of the most densely populated places on Earth where you have a combatant hiding behind and firing from those positions, using the civilians as human shields,” Crane said.
Many in Israel’s defense establishment have pledged to fight until every trace of militancy is gone from the territory — even if it means wreaking mass havoc on the besieged strip’s civilian population.
But Israel's relentless airstrikes could come under scrutiny, both because of the heavy civilian death toll and heavy damage to civilian infrastructure.
“We’re seeing reports of entire neighborhoods, blocks that are reduced to rubble. Certainly that would appear to be, you know, war crimes as well,” Shakir said. “We’ve seen attacks that have affected hospitals and other areas that are entitled to protection.”
The Israeli army says it follows international legal norms and strikes only legitimate military targets.
“The most pleasant way not to cause any harm to anyone is not to do anything,” said retired Israeli general Giora Eiland. “But Israel has to fight. And how do you fight? You have to bomb them. Or you do nothing. If civilians decide to stay on the streets of Gaza, there will be much more civilian casualties.”
CAN THE ICC GET INVOLVED?
While Israel is not one of the court’s 123 member states, ICC judges have ruled that the Palestinians are and that the court has jurisdiction over territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.
The ICC prosecution office's ongoing investigation — spurred by the last major conflict in Gaza — can analyze war crimes allegations from the latest war.
But Israel does not recognize the court's jurisdiction and the ICC does not have a police force to execute arrest warrants.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?
the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?
have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.
Oh yes, the Oslo Accords. Funny that. Did you mention that Rabin walked away when it became politically untenable to deliver thus paving the way for Bibi? Israel and its voters don't own that, right? Yet, the Palestinians own Hamas, right? Further, you mention the West Bank as if it was supposed to be shared but in reality, was it? Or did Israel take all the best parts, wall them off and restrict access to Palestinians? Was there freedom of movement for the Palestinians? Was not the most water rich, arid land sectioned off for Israel, over time? Were the Palestinians not treated like uninvited guests from 1993 onward? You post as if that history doesn't exist and is some kind of left wing, Palestinian propaganda. Please. We're all not as ill-informed or ignorant of the history as you assume.
Seeing how you like the way back machine and where it takes you, lets discuss the following, shall we?
March 16, 2003: Tell us who Rachel Corrie is, how she died and who killed her, please? Who owns it?
1995: Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated: Tell us by whom and why? Who owns that?
1985: Jonathan Pollard is arrested. Who owns that? And guess who raves about it? At the time of his release from federal prison in Butner, N.C., in 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said: "As someone who raised Jonathan's case for years with successive American presidents, I had long hoped this day would come." But I guess that you're A-Okay with this, right?
September 16, 1982: Educate us on Sabra and Shatila. Who bears responsibility and who owns those events? Please.
June 8, 1967: Tell us about the USS Liberty, please. Why it was where it was, what it was doing and what happened. Then explain what was going on on terra firma. Who is responsible? Who owns it? I'm really interested in your take.
I can go further back and I'm sure I've missed a bunch in-between but I'm willing to revisit them if you are. Don't assume we're all dolts buying into the "propaganda" nor unaware of the "history." Also, please don't insult some of our intelligence by positing that Israel is innocent and doesn't have blood on their hands from over 75 years of shared history. I'll add that the above referenced track history and Israel's continued "collective punishment" tactics are eroding the good will of humanity. Just my opinion.
Second to lastly, about the 24 hours notice, it appears Hamas did advertise it but the Israeli military either ignored it or didn't take it seriously, seemingly because Bibi, remember him?, had other games to play, politically speaking. Who owns that? Much like our 9/11 and Shrub being "briefed" that they're "determined to attack us with airplanes." And Clinton having gone after terrorists and recognizing the threat and trying to do something about it (prosecuting and convicting the first WTC bombing suspects and the CIA attacker, and not blowing out the Constitution in blood lust versus GITMO, as an example).
And lastly, what are your solutions for a lasting peace? Haven't heard squat about that but I'm patient.
PS: In reference to the Oslo Accords, you used the term "precisely." They were anything but and a "framework." Stop with the revisionism and propaganda, please?
A graphic video verified by The Washington Post showed the aftermath of a deadly strike along Gaza’s main highway Friday, part of a wave of Israeli attacks that killed dozens and injured more than 200 people fleeing northern Gaza, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza.
The video, recorded along Salah Al-Deen road, shows bodies, including several young children, strewn along the road as black smoke rises from vehicles engulfed in flames. On the north-facing side of the road, bodies are laid out amid personal belongings, including a bicycle, on flatbed trailers attached to a truck.
The video was first geolocated by open-source researchers Chris Osieck and Gabòr Friesen and confirmed by The Post.
Late Thursday, Israel ordered the evacuation of northern Gaza’s 1.1 million residents within 24 hours, the United Nations said. On Friday, the Israeli military dropped leaflets over Gaza City telling residents to “evacuate your homes immediately and go to the south.”
Hamas’s surprise incursion on Oct. 7 killed at least 1,300 people in Israel, authorities said. Palestinian officials said the subsequent Israeli strikes have killed more than 1,799 people in Gaza.
The Israel Defense Forces did not have an immediate response.
Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight
By MIKE CORDER and JULIA FRANKEL
Yesterday
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The deadly attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians and the devastating Israeli airstrikes and blockade of Gaza have raised accusations among international legal experts that both sides were violating international law.
A United Nations Commission of Inquiry said it has been “collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides” since the violence started last week. That evidence could be added to an investigation by the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas in past conflicts.
“Intentional targeting of civilians and civilian objects without a military necessary reason to do so is a war crime, period,” said David Crane, an American international law expert and the founding chief prosecutor of the United Nations’ Special Court for Sierra Leone. “And that’s a standard that both sides are held to under international law.”
Even Israel’s staunchest ally has sounded a note of caution.
U.S. President Joe Biden, at a meeting with Jewish leaders Wednesday, said he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “that it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just — I don’t know how to explain it — that exists is that they operate by the rules of war — the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”
DID HAMAS COMMIT WAR CRIMES?
After breaking through Israel’s security barrier early Saturday morning, Hamas militants gunned down entire families, including women and young children, in border communities around the Gaza Strip. Israel’s health service said it extricated the bodies of over a hundred community members from Kibbutz Be’eri. Militants attacked the Tribe of Nova music festival, gunning down people as they desperately sought refuge.
Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director of Human Rights Watch, pointed to Hamas “shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, including women and children — undeniably grave abuses of international law, for which there’s no justification.”
In an analysis published on the international law website Opinio Juris, Cornell Law School professor Jens David Ohlin wrote that the Hamas attacks amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity under the International Criminal Court’s founding Rome Statute.
Rights group Amnesty International called for accountability.
“Massacring civilians is a war crime and there can be no justification for these reprehensible attacks,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s secretary-general.
“These crimes must be investigated as part of the International Criminal Court’s ongoing investigation into crimes committed by all parties in the current conflict,” Callamard said.
IS ISRAEL’S MILITARY RESPONSE LEGAL?
The Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the Hamas -ruled Gaza Strip with airstrikes and blocked deliveries of food, water, fuel and electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. The bombardment already has killed about 1,800 people in Gaza, including U.N. workers, paramedics and journalists.
Experts say the blockade, which is hitting the territory's more than 2 million residents, violates international law. "Collective punishment is a war crime. Israel is doing that by cutting electricity, water, food, blocking aid from entering the Gaza Strip,” Shakir said.
Early Friday, Israel’s military directed the evacuation of some 1 million civilians living in the northern Gaza Strip ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. Hamas called on residents to remain in their homes.
The International Committee of the Red Cross said the order to leave along with the siege "are not compatible with international humanitarian law.”
Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, also called the order illegal. It is "not an evacuation opportunity, it’s an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime,” he said.
Israel has also faced criticism for its widespread airstrikes razing large areas of Gaza since the Hamas attacks.
But Crane said that Hamas’ base in the densely populated area makes any Israeli military action extremely difficult.
“They’re almost in an impossible situation. Every time they fire an artillery piece, an aircraft fires missiles and stuff at a legitimate target, they’re going to collaterally kill civilians,” he said.
The Israeli military has “this challenge where you have one of the most densely populated places on Earth where you have a combatant hiding behind and firing from those positions, using the civilians as human shields,” Crane said.
Many in Israel’s defense establishment have pledged to fight until every trace of militancy is gone from the territory — even if it means wreaking mass havoc on the besieged strip’s civilian population.
But Israel's relentless airstrikes could come under scrutiny, both because of the heavy civilian death toll and heavy damage to civilian infrastructure.
“We’re seeing reports of entire neighborhoods, blocks that are reduced to rubble. Certainly that would appear to be, you know, war crimes as well,” Shakir said. “We’ve seen attacks that have affected hospitals and other areas that are entitled to protection.”
The Israeli army says itT follows international legal norms and strikes only legitimate military targets.
“The most pleasant way not to cause any harm to anyone is not to do anything,” said retired Israeli general Giora Eiland. “But Israel has to fight. And how do you fight? You have to bomb them. Or you do nothing. If civilians decide to stay on the streets of Gaza, there will be much more civilian casualties.”
CAN THE ICC GET INVOLVED?
While Israel is not one of the court’s 123 member states, ICC judges have ruled that the Palestinians are and that the court has jurisdiction over territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.
The ICC prosecution office's ongoing investigation — spurred by the last major conflict in Gaza — can analyze war crimes allegations from the latest war.
But Israel does not recognize the court's jurisdiction and the ICC does not have a police force to execute arrest warrants.
___
Frankel reported from Jerusalem.
Does anyone living in reality believe that? Anyone? Lerxst? Are you okay with this approach? In the interest of "defending Israel?" More importantly, do you believe that?
Yes netanyayu is a bad leader. But Egypt is just as culpable if not more for the hot mess in Gaza . This is not the first time they rejected Gaza refugees. And they are to blame as much as any other nation for what happened to Gaza after Israel withdrew
And anyone complaining about west bank, if Israel were to leave, its obvious it would become Gaza part 2.
Egypt understands, many commenters here dont.
For those maga-ian conspiracy theorists hypothesizing without proof this is some "eradication" plan,educate yourself first on the Gaza history before launching more baseless attacks.
Today,
"One of the Egyptian security sources, who asked not to be identified, said Egypt rejected the idea of safe corridors for civilians to protect "the right of Palestinians to hold on to their cause and their land"
Linked with the conflict following his party's loss in the 2006 election, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas approved the Egyptian border restrictions by the new regime, purportedly aimed at protecting Egypt from danger. In 2014 and subsequent years, Abbas supported Egypt's crackdown on smuggling tunnels and welcomed the flooding of the tunnels by Egypt in coordination with the PA.[19][41][42]
In 2010, Abbas declared that he opposed lifting the Israeli naval blockade of the Gaza Strip because this would bolster Hamas. Egypt also supported this position.[43]
In 2016, Abbas objected to the entrance of Qatari fuel to the Gaza electricity plant via Israel, because his PA would be unable to collect taxes on the fuel.
Based on Israel's history (1967 border expansion post-Six Day War, assisting construction of settlements within Gaza still taking place today), is it wrong to think Israel would seize more land if it were emptied of Palestinian people tomorrow?
They handed the keys to Gaza 15 years ago, and treat the west bank in accordance with 2 signed treaties, that were violated by Palestine.
BTW, Palestine(west bank) was never a sovereign nation if my memory is correct
Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims.
1. My statement equated to "Egypt has precedence to believe Israel would seize land if vacated of Palestinians" - I even referenced historical events. Yes, Israel has given land back in their past too, but I was (pretty obviously) expressing why Egypt has grounds to say what they did. Am I wrong?
2. I didn't say Palestine was a sovereign nation (nor do I think I even implied it). I'm not sure what point you're trying to make/argue in this statement.
3. "Let's stick to known facts instead of hypothesis based on years of false Palestinian claims."
As a Jew in a Jewish community, I'm all too familiar with the "I know more than you, you've been fed lies and believed them, so why don't you just shut it, simpleton" that comes out as a unified voice from the community whenever a criticism of Israeli behaviours is lobbed.
My conclusion has been pretty simple - if someone wants to debate with you, but wants you to know first and foremost how much superior they and their opinions are - they want you to accept their opinions carte blanche, and they are disinterested in a genuine debate. And if they're disinterested in a genuine debate, I'm not interested at all. So I'm out. Y'all have fun - none of this matters and none of this changes anyways.
I was attempting to comment based on facts and not speculate. I do not recall using the word superior. However, it was horrible reading this topic last Saturday as the news of the attacks unfolded, I have checked many times and found zero expressions of sympathy towards the 1500 dead Israeli civilians on that specific day. Only comments about occupation, which as you know, is quite some distance from Gaza. And I was even corrected by someone by not citing fatah is not the same as Hamas.
At the time I commented before your reply, I was surprised you would ask if Israel were interested in taking over Gaza. Since you seem interested in a reply, I will guess that I am unaware of any evidence that any country in the region wants anything to do with that land.
given the news today, that Israel wants Gaza civilians evacuated to the south, it made me consider that a DMZ in northern Gaza might be an option. If that’s true that would be a partial yes.
As I think we can all acknowledge, it's incredibly hard to remove emotionality from this situation. I apologize if I let my inner frustration/exhaustion show, and thanks for responding, lerxt, as well as the specifics. I'm exhausted by feeling like the most I can do is be a keyboard warrior and discuss a situation that does. not. change. ever.
I explained why I felt Israel would take over Gaza - I feel it's based on precedence to expand as originally seen in the six-day war first, and ongoing precedence by the Israeli government's consistent turning a blind eye over settlement expansion. It shouldn't come as a surprise that Egypt stated this could happen, and I don't think history shows it to be a farfetched notion.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?
the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?
have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.
Those treaties made in the 90's are irrelevant, L. So much has changed since then and nothing that went down 30 years ago is going to change a thing here. Bush, Obama, that is all old news in this fast changing world.
You are not making your case any stronger by using words like "left wing haters of Israel". How many people on this thread do you see as being Israel haters? Obviously not me. Most of the comments that have been critical of Israel are not critical of the country but, rather, are critical of Netanyau and his people, not the Israeli people. No one here wanted them to be killed. And if I were to say you are a hater of Palestine, I would hope that would be incorrect and that, in fact, you hate the Hamas, not all Palestinians. Yes?
I don't know what you have invested in all this, but I'm guessing, as with one or two others here as well, you have some strong ties to Israel. That's fine- some people are more nationalistic than I am, but I accept that they (and possible you) are. But by now it must be obvious to you that being an Israeli nationalist and not recognizing or at least acknowledging that Israeli leaders have dirty hands in this thing too, you are going to continue to be unhappy and frustrated with this thread and change no ones mind. My own tendency to be at least somewhat defensive of Palestinians is because so much of what is being projected in the news and opinion pieces, etc. does not recognize that this is a two way street and that sometimes the collision on that street is caused by aggression from one side, and sometimes the other.
So in a nutshell, my own believe is that the powers that be on both sides are full of shit and it's their reckless actions that leads to the suffering of many innocent civilians. Fuck the Israeli leaders and fuck the Hamas, I say. Save the people.
One last thing: I have a feeling I might be losing a few friends here as a result of having posted my thoughts here. All I can think of to say about that is this quote:
"I would never betray a friend to serve a cause. Never reject a friend to help an institution. Great nations may fall into ruin before I would sell a friend to save them."
-Edward Abbey
How am I invested in this? I just don’t want WWIII to be caused by an authoritarian terrorist organization that has refused peace and the concept of sharing and negotiation at every opportunity. To agree with people who want to drive the entirety of an American ally nation with an elite military into the Mediterranean? To agree with people who provoke an elite military and then point the finger at their victims? That’s who the commenters here supported last Saturday.
a lot of the security and stability we enjoy is because of the American peace process. Peace thru strength , peace thru negotiation. But we have many in North America thinking the 1800s were better? The 1700s were more stable and secure? Hitler winning would have been better? Sure America ain’t perfect, and many of us complain about it here, but when push comes to shove, most countries that have signed on the dotted line, are better off in terms of stability.
And invested on a secondary level, I am concerned the small extreme slice of the American left that rails against Israeli “occupation” will solve zero problems, other than bringing trump back in power next November.
to call West Bank peace treaties irrelevant is difficult to agree with, because the West Bank has been shared and administered as a direct result of those treaties. For decades Israel had a center left govt looking for peace, and what happened? Their civilians got murdered in cold blood, just like last Saturday. Same result when they voted for the Netanyahu thug.
The only way for Palestine to get a better agreement is to negotiate. But when all they seem to care about is to control these lands from the river to the sea, how do the Israelis exist with that? Palestines informal anthem is sung to the tune of ethnic cleansing. Israel has a track record of peace deals, they ain’t perfect but they’re better than singing songs of joy to the tune of ethnic cleansing.
the only solution here is the bargaining table.
And the only reason this specific war is occurring now was the potential for a Saudi peace deal.
Some here are displeased with others here who believe there is too much support for the Palestinians, especially with the recent attacks of the Hamas. I think we all agree that the Hamas attacks inflicted terrible harm and death to innocent people. I think some of us agree that the retaliatory measures of Israel are extreme in that they also cause terrible harm and death to innocent people (if you don't believe children are innocent, we have nothing to talk about).
So what I sincerely would like to know is that those of you who are displeased with those here who believe the Israeli retaliation is the wrong way to go and you believe that children are innocent victims, how do you propose this conflict be settled? Do you believe dead children are collateral damage and that's just too bad? If not, what solutions do you propose.
Perhaps for a minute we can stop talking the pointless back and worth here and talk about solutions.
Bri, I have been talking non stop since Monday about the Oslo accords, which are signed documents by Palestinian leadership in the 1990s spelling out a path to sharing the West Bank. Bush tried to bring Palestine back to the table, as did Obama. Did one commenter here lift one finger to understand what I was talking about?
the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?
have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.
Oh yes, the Oslo Accords. Funny that. Did you mention that Rabin walked away when it became politically untenable to deliver thus paving the way for Bibi? Israel and its voters don't own that, right? Yet, the Palestinians own Hamas, right? Further, you mention the West Bank as if it was supposed to be shared but in reality, was it? Or did Israel take all the best parts, wall them off and restrict access to Palestinians? Was there freedom of movement for the Palestinians? Was not the most water rich, arid land sectioned off for Israel, over time? Were the Palestinians not treated like uninvited guests from 1993 onward? You post as if that history doesn't exist and is some kind of left wing, Palestinian propaganda. Please. We're all not as ill-informed or ignorant of the history as you assume.
Seeing how you like the way back machine and where it takes you, lets discuss the following, shall we?
March 16, 2003: Tell us who Rachel Corrie is, how she died and who killed her, please? Who owns it?
1995: Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated: Tell us by whom and why? Who owns that?
1985: Jonathan Pollard is arrested. Who owns that? And guess who raves about it? At the time of his release from federal prison in Butner, N.C., in 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said: "As someone who raised Jonathan's case for years with successive American presidents, I had long hoped this day would come." But I guess that you're A-Okay with this, right?
September 16, 1982: Educate us on Sabra and Shatila. Who bears responsibility and who owns those events? Please.
June 8, 1967: Tell us about the USS Liberty, please. Why it was where it was, what it was doing and what happened. Then explain what was going on on terra firma. Who is responsible? Who owns it? I'm really interested in your take.
I can go further back and I'm sure I've missed a bunch in-between but I'm willing to revisit them if you are. Don't assume we're all dolts buying into the "propaganda" nor unaware of the "history." Also, please don't insult some of our intelligence by positing that Israel is innocent and doesn't have blood on their hands from over 75 years of shared history. I'll add that the above referenced track history and Israel's continued "collective punishment" tactics are eroding the good will of humanity. Just my opinion.
Second to lastly, about the 24 hours notice, it appears Hamas did advertise it but the Israeli military either ignored it or didn't take it seriously, seemingly because Bibi, remember him?, had other games to play, politically speaking. Who owns that? Much like our 9/11 and Shrub being "briefed" that they're "determined to attack us with airplanes." And Clinton having gone after terrorists and recognizing the threat and trying to do something about it (prosecuting and convicting the first WTC bombing suspects and the CIA attacker, and not blowing out the Constitution in blood lust versus GITMO, as an example).
And lastly, what are your solutions for a lasting peace? Haven't heard squat about that but I'm patient.
PS: In reference to the Oslo Accords, you used the term "precisely." They were anything but and a "framework." Stop with the revisionism and propaganda, please?
Geez Hal,I’m appreciate the effort, that’s a lot to unpack. Maybe one at a time in the future?
Firstly, I’ll revisit the wash rinse repeat. Maybe if that comment were on Wednesday, I could have peacefully digested that? But last Saturday, while 1500 Israelis were being murdered? Repeat? Do you have another example of an invasion from Gaza? I don’t think you get how harmful that comment was.
by “precisely” I am referring to areas A B and C, which still exist today. bad word selection by me. Of course that deal can be and should be improved for the Palestinians, but their only interest is the River to the Sea. How do Israelis negotiate with that? Still yet they should.
edit, I understand Rabin was assassinated and by whom, what you conveniently forgot to mention was the fifty terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens, I believe mostly by Hamas and not fatah, they swayed Israel to vote in the thug.
Experts say Hamas and Israel are committing war crimes in their fight
By MIKE CORDER and JULIA FRANKEL
Yesterday
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The deadly attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians and the devastating Israeli airstrikes and blockade of Gaza have raised accusations among international legal experts that both sides were violating international law.
A United Nations Commission of Inquiry said it has been “collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides” since the violence started last week. That evidence could be added to an investigation by the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas in past conflicts.
“Intentional targeting of civilians and civilian objects without a military necessary reason to do so is a war crime, period,” said David Crane, an American international law expert and the founding chief prosecutor of the United Nations’ Special Court for Sierra Leone. “And that’s a standard that both sides are held to under international law.”
Even Israel’s staunchest ally has sounded a note of caution.
U.S. President Joe Biden, at a meeting with Jewish leaders Wednesday, said he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “that it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just — I don’t know how to explain it — that exists is that they operate by the rules of war — the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”
DID HAMAS COMMIT WAR CRIMES?
After breaking through Israel’s security barrier early Saturday morning, Hamas militants gunned down entire families, including women and young children, in border communities around the Gaza Strip. Israel’s health service said it extricated the bodies of over a hundred community members from Kibbutz Be’eri. Militants attacked the Tribe of Nova music festival, gunning down people as they desperately sought refuge.
Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director of Human Rights Watch, pointed to Hamas “shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, including women and children — undeniably grave abuses of international law, for which there’s no justification.”
In an analysis published on the international law website Opinio Juris, Cornell Law School professor Jens David Ohlin wrote that the Hamas attacks amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity under the International Criminal Court’s founding Rome Statute.
Rights group Amnesty International called for accountability.
“Massacring civilians is a war crime and there can be no justification for these reprehensible attacks,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s secretary-general.
“These crimes must be investigated as part of the International Criminal Court’s ongoing investigation into crimes committed by all parties in the current conflict,” Callamard said.
IS ISRAEL’S MILITARY RESPONSE LEGAL?
The Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the Hamas -ruled Gaza Strip with airstrikes and blocked deliveries of food, water, fuel and electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. The bombardment already has killed about 1,800 people in Gaza, including U.N. workers, paramedics and journalists.
Experts say the blockade, which is hitting the territory's more than 2 million residents, violates international law. "Collective punishment is a war crime. Israel is doing that by cutting electricity, water, food, blocking aid from entering the Gaza Strip,” Shakir said.
Early Friday, Israel’s military directed the evacuation of some 1 million civilians living in the northern Gaza Strip ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. Hamas called on residents to remain in their homes.
The International Committee of the Red Cross said the order to leave along with the siege "are not compatible with international humanitarian law.”
Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, also called the order illegal. It is "not an evacuation opportunity, it’s an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime,” he said.
Israel has also faced criticism for its widespread airstrikes razing large areas of Gaza since the Hamas attacks.
But Crane said that Hamas’ base in the densely populated area makes any Israeli military action extremely difficult.
“They’re almost in an impossible situation. Every time they fire an artillery piece, an aircraft fires missiles and stuff at a legitimate target, they’re going to collaterally kill civilians,” he said.
The Israeli military has “this challenge where you have one of the most densely populated places on Earth where you have a combatant hiding behind and firing from those positions, using the civilians as human shields,” Crane said.
Many in Israel’s defense establishment have pledged to fight until every trace of militancy is gone from the territory — even if it means wreaking mass havoc on the besieged strip’s civilian population.
But Israel's relentless airstrikes could come under scrutiny, both because of the heavy civilian death toll and heavy damage to civilian infrastructure.
“We’re seeing reports of entire neighborhoods, blocks that are reduced to rubble. Certainly that would appear to be, you know, war crimes as well,” Shakir said. “We’ve seen attacks that have affected hospitals and other areas that are entitled to protection.”
The Israeli army says itT follows international legal norms and strikes only legitimate military targets.
“The most pleasant way not to cause any harm to anyone is not to do anything,” said retired Israeli general Giora Eiland. “But Israel has to fight. And how do you fight? You have to bomb them. Or you do nothing. If civilians decide to stay on the streets of Gaza, there will be much more civilian casualties.”
CAN THE ICC GET INVOLVED?
While Israel is not one of the court’s 123 member states, ICC judges have ruled that the Palestinians are and that the court has jurisdiction over territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.
The ICC prosecution office's ongoing investigation — spurred by the last major conflict in Gaza — can analyze war crimes allegations from the latest war.
But Israel does not recognize the court's jurisdiction and the ICC does not have a police force to execute arrest warrants.
___
Frankel reported from Jerusalem.
Does anyone living in reality believe that? Anyone? Lerxst? Are you okay with this approach? In the interest of "defending Israel?" More importantly, do you believe that?
Should they not make an attempt to remove Hamas? Had Hamas not attacked October 7, zero of your comment would have existed in the news. YES Israel has done bad things in the past, but one thing in this terrible crisis…specific actions should require specific blame. On Oct 6 the Gaza people had food and water and Israelis were traveling to a music festival.
Comments
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
www.headstonesband.com
But if they are go that route and turn around to see if they are being followed, they will turn into pillars of salt. You just can't win when it come to religion.
www.headstonesband.com
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not easy, easier said than done, given the history, and a pipe dream. I realize there's a ton of shit between the parties and history, inclusive of US meddling, etc. What's happening now is another generation of Israelis and Palestinians hating each other and wishing their demise. I won't live long enough to see peace in the region. Petra, the Nile River and the Pyramids, and all the other amazing historical locations are a bucket list item. Sad.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
given the news today, that Israel wants Gaza civilians evacuated to the south, it made me consider that a DMZ in northern Gaza might be an option. If that’s true that would be a partial yes.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyOyUk2SbGW/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
the current West Bank “occupation” is spelled out precisely in these signed peace treaties. Did any of the left wing haters of Israel , who find my views laughable and nothing but talking points, bother to understand these agreements and how the occupied land is actually spelled out precisely in the agreements?
have any other commenters been calling for negotiation of the West Bank? The reason I switched to the West Bank was the unending commentary here about “occupation” while Gaza invaded southern Israel and murdered 1500 civilians, who were given not 24 hours notice, but zero notice.
Gaza is not a country or a government, how could Gaza invade anything? I'm pretty sure Hamas attacked Israel.
There are no kings inside the gates of eden
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
They are in big trouble, whatever they are, based on what we are hearing.
I understand the desire to react and bomb people back to the stone age. Felt that way after 911
Thankfully we didn't do that, the world was a different place, although we did certainly have a strong reaction. Lost so many lives on our side, and it got us pretty much nothing.
War sucks.
Edit - I live in a predominantly Jewish city, almost all of our neighbors, friends, friends of kids, kids on teams we coach, etc, are Jewish. Our schools have had issues this week with the McCarthy type of call outs against anyone who says anything other than "I stand with Isreal" and our kids' schools all have cops all over outside.
I very much feel for the losses for the people of Isreal, the people that our community is connected to and the loss of human life.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Whew.. says it all.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The deadly attacks by Hamas on Israeli civilians and the devastating Israeli airstrikes and blockade of Gaza have raised accusations among international legal experts that both sides were violating international law.
A United Nations Commission of Inquiry said it has been “collecting and preserving evidence of war crimes committed by all sides” since the violence started last week. That evidence could be added to an investigation by the International Criminal Court into possible war crimes committed by Israel and Hamas in past conflicts.
“Intentional targeting of civilians and civilian objects without a military necessary reason to do so is a war crime, period,” said David Crane, an American international law expert and the founding chief prosecutor of the United Nations’ Special Court for Sierra Leone. “And that’s a standard that both sides are held to under international law.”
Even Israel’s staunchest ally has sounded a note of caution.
U.S. President Joe Biden, at a meeting with Jewish leaders Wednesday, said he told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “that it is really important that Israel, with all the anger and frustration and just — I don’t know how to explain it — that exists is that they operate by the rules of war — the rules of war. And there are rules of war.”
DID HAMAS COMMIT WAR CRIMES?
After breaking through Israel’s security barrier early Saturday morning, Hamas militants gunned down entire families, including women and young children, in border communities around the Gaza Strip. Israel’s health service said it extricated the bodies of over a hundred community members from Kibbutz Be’eri. Militants attacked the Tribe of Nova music festival, gunning down people as they desperately sought refuge.
The attacks killed more than 1,300 people in Israel, including 247 soldiers — a toll unseen in Israel for decades.
Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine Director of Human Rights Watch, pointed to Hamas “shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, including women and children — undeniably grave abuses of international law, for which there’s no justification.”
In an analysis published on the international law website Opinio Juris, Cornell Law School professor Jens David Ohlin wrote that the Hamas attacks amount to war crimes and crimes against humanity under the International Criminal Court’s founding Rome Statute.
Rights group Amnesty International called for accountability.
“Massacring civilians is a war crime and there can be no justification for these reprehensible attacks,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s secretary-general.
“These crimes must be investigated as part of the International Criminal Court’s ongoing investigation into crimes committed by all parties in the current conflict,” Callamard said.
IS ISRAEL’S MILITARY RESPONSE LEGAL?
The Israeli military has pulverized large parts of the Hamas -ruled Gaza Strip with airstrikes and blocked deliveries of food, water, fuel and electricity ahead of a possible ground invasion. The bombardment already has killed about 1,800 people in Gaza, including U.N. workers, paramedics and journalists.
Experts say the blockade, which is hitting the territory's more than 2 million residents, violates international law. "Collective punishment is a war crime. Israel is doing that by cutting electricity, water, food, blocking aid from entering the Gaza Strip,” Shakir said.
Early Friday, Israel’s military directed the evacuation of some 1 million civilians living in the northern Gaza Strip ahead of a feared Israel ground offensive. Hamas called on residents to remain in their homes.
The International Committee of the Red Cross said the order to leave along with the siege "are not compatible with international humanitarian law.”
Jan Egeland, secretary-general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, also called the order illegal. It is "not an evacuation opportunity, it’s an order to relocate. Under humanitarian law, it’s called forcible transfer of populations, and it’s a war crime,” he said.
Israel has also faced criticism for its widespread airstrikes razing large areas of Gaza since the Hamas attacks.
But Crane said that Hamas’ base in the densely populated area makes any Israeli military action extremely difficult.
“They’re almost in an impossible situation. Every time they fire an artillery piece, an aircraft fires missiles and stuff at a legitimate target, they’re going to collaterally kill civilians,” he said.
The Israeli military has “this challenge where you have one of the most densely populated places on Earth where you have a combatant hiding behind and firing from those positions, using the civilians as human shields,” Crane said.
Many in Israel’s defense establishment have pledged to fight until every trace of militancy is gone from the territory — even if it means wreaking mass havoc on the besieged strip’s civilian population.
But Israel's relentless airstrikes could come under scrutiny, both because of the heavy civilian death toll and heavy damage to civilian infrastructure.
“We’re seeing reports of entire neighborhoods, blocks that are reduced to rubble. Certainly that would appear to be, you know, war crimes as well,” Shakir said. “We’ve seen attacks that have affected hospitals and other areas that are entitled to protection.”
The Israeli army says it follows international legal norms and strikes only legitimate military targets.
“The most pleasant way not to cause any harm to anyone is not to do anything,” said retired Israeli general Giora Eiland. “But Israel has to fight. And how do you fight? You have to bomb them. Or you do nothing. If civilians decide to stay on the streets of Gaza, there will be much more civilian casualties.”
CAN THE ICC GET INVOLVED?
While Israel is not one of the court’s 123 member states, ICC judges have ruled that the Palestinians are and that the court has jurisdiction over territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war.
The ICC prosecution office's ongoing investigation — spurred by the last major conflict in Gaza — can analyze war crimes allegations from the latest war.
But Israel does not recognize the court's jurisdiction and the ICC does not have a police force to execute arrest warrants.
___
Frankel reported from Jerusalem.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Seeing how you like the way back machine and where it takes you, lets discuss the following, shall we?
March 16, 2003: Tell us who Rachel Corrie is, how she died and who killed her, please? Who owns it?
1995: Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated: Tell us by whom and why? Who owns that?
1985: Jonathan Pollard is arrested. Who owns that? And guess who raves about it? At the time of his release from federal prison in Butner, N.C., in 2015, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said: "As someone who raised Jonathan's case for years with successive American presidents, I had long hoped this day would come." But I guess that you're A-Okay with this, right?
September 16, 1982: Educate us on Sabra and Shatila. Who bears responsibility and who owns those events? Please.
June 8, 1967: Tell us about the USS Liberty, please. Why it was where it was, what it was doing and what happened. Then explain what was going on on terra firma. Who is responsible? Who owns it? I'm really interested in your take.
I can go further back and I'm sure I've missed a bunch in-between but I'm willing to revisit them if you are. Don't assume we're all dolts buying into the "propaganda" nor unaware of the "history." Also, please don't insult some of our intelligence by positing that Israel is innocent and doesn't have blood on their hands from over 75 years of shared history. I'll add that the above referenced track history and Israel's continued "collective punishment" tactics are eroding the good will of humanity. Just my opinion.
Second to lastly, about the 24 hours notice, it appears Hamas did advertise it but the Israeli military either ignored it or didn't take it seriously, seemingly because Bibi, remember him?, had other games to play, politically speaking. Who owns that? Much like our 9/11 and Shrub being "briefed" that they're "determined to attack us with airplanes." And Clinton having gone after terrorists and recognizing the threat and trying to do something about it (prosecuting and convicting the first WTC bombing suspects and the CIA attacker, and not blowing out the Constitution in blood lust versus GITMO, as an example).
And lastly, what are your solutions for a lasting peace? Haven't heard squat about that but I'm patient.
PS: In reference to the Oslo Accords, you used the term "precisely." They were anything but and a "framework." Stop with the revisionism and propaganda, please?
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Palestinians killed while apparently evacuating, video shows
Return to menuA graphic video verified by The Washington Post showed the aftermath of a deadly strike along Gaza’s main highway Friday, part of a wave of Israeli attacks that killed dozens and injured more than 200 people fleeing northern Gaza, according to the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza.
The video, recorded along Salah Al-Deen road, shows bodies, including several young children, strewn along the road as black smoke rises from vehicles engulfed in flames. On the north-facing side of the road, bodies are laid out amid personal belongings, including a bicycle, on flatbed trailers attached to a truck.
The video was first geolocated by open-source researchers Chris Osieck and Gabòr Friesen and confirmed by The Post.
Late Thursday, Israel ordered the evacuation of northern Gaza’s 1.1 million residents within 24 hours, the United Nations said. On Friday, the Israeli military dropped leaflets over Gaza City telling residents to “evacuate your homes immediately and go to the south.”
Hamas’s surprise incursion on Oct. 7 killed at least 1,300 people in Israel, authorities said. Palestinian officials said the subsequent Israeli strikes have killed more than 1,799 people in Gaza.
The Israel Defense Forces did not have an immediate response.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
I explained why I felt Israel would take over Gaza - I feel it's based on precedence to expand as originally seen in the six-day war first, and ongoing precedence by the Israeli government's consistent turning a blind eye over settlement expansion. It shouldn't come as a surprise that Egypt stated this could happen, and I don't think history shows it to be a farfetched notion.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
a lot of the security and stability we enjoy is because of the American peace process. Peace thru strength , peace thru negotiation. But we have many in North America thinking the 1800s were better? The 1700s were more stable and secure? Hitler winning would have been better? Sure America ain’t perfect, and many of us complain about it here, but when push comes to shove, most countries that have signed on the dotted line, are better off in terms of stability.
And invested on a secondary level, I am concerned the small extreme slice of the American left that rails against Israeli “occupation” will solve zero problems, other than bringing trump back in power next November.
the only solution here is the bargaining table.
by “precisely” I am referring to areas A B and C, which still exist today. bad word selection by me. Of course that deal can be and should be improved for the Palestinians, but their only interest is the River to the Sea. How do Israelis negotiate with that? Still yet they should.
edit, I understand Rabin was assassinated and by whom, what you conveniently forgot to mention was the fifty terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens, I believe mostly by Hamas and not fatah, they swayed Israel to vote in the thug.