Meanwhile back in Israel

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  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 20,225
    edited May 2021
    israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
    So when are you going to return your land back to the peoples of the 1st nations?  America and Canada are the last 2 countries that should be pointing fingers...  this not just a left/right issue.  Governments of both liberal or right pretty much support the same policies...
    Not to mention the last 20 years of bullshit war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the bullshit proxy war that the US supports in Yemen...all in the name of getting terrorists?
    yeah because i am personally responsible for the atrocities that were committed in early american history, as well as the war on turr. am i out there stealing land now? fuck no.

    where i live was purchased from the french in 1803. you want to blame someone, blame the colonizers that came here and started all of that.

    if you were around this board in the early 2000s you would have read my posts about the anti war protests i was involved with.

    we as protestors got squashed and gassed by the cops on the order of the government. what do you want me to do? like we were really going to take the streets and stop a fucking war or something.

    Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 20,225
    mrussel1 said:
    israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
    This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe. 
    the hamas attacks are in response to the land theft and settlement expansion. those attacks are a symtom and a result of the underlying issue, that crime is being committed in order for israel to expand. 

    clearly israel has the right to defend itself by going on offense with overwhelming force, while the palestinians are condemned no matter what they do.

    the international community is powerless and unwilling to act on behalf of the the palestinians. any time a world leader speaks out in defense of the palestinians they get called anti semitic and terrorist sympathizers. it happened to me on this board last night.

    the propaganda arm of the israeli government is stronger than any i have ever known.
    This isn't completely true.  Iran absolutely orchestrates attacks as a proxy for their interests. 
    and we as americans support israel because we are looking out for own interests in the middle east. if israel is defeated we lose our foothold and our influence in the region.

    the us has veto power at the un and we use it to veto anything critical of israel. almost 100% of the time.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    mrussel1 said:
    israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
    This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe. 
    the hamas attacks are in response to the land theft and settlement expansion. those attacks are a symtom and a result of the underlying issue, that crime is being committed in order for israel to expand. 

    clearly israel has the right to defend itself by going on offense with overwhelming force, while the palestinians are condemned no matter what they do.

    the international community is powerless and unwilling to act on behalf of the the palestinians. any time a world leader speaks out in defense of the palestinians they get called anti semitic and terrorist sympathizers. it happened to me on this board last night.

    the propaganda arm of the israeli government is stronger than any i have ever known.
    This isn't completely true.  Iran absolutely orchestrates attacks as a proxy for their interests. 
    and we as americans support israel because we are looking out for own interests in the middle east. if israel is defeated we lose our foothold and our influence in the region.

    the us has veto power at the un and we use it to veto anything critical of israel. almost 100% of the time.
    Isreal being defeated has much broader consequences than just a foothold in the ME. It's hard for us to comprehend 2 millenia of pograms and genocide. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,748
    lets recap this a bit.

    religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.

    For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.

    it grew from there.
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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    mickeyrat said:
    lets recap this a bit.

    religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.

    For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.

    it grew from there.
    "For some reason"... that's the real key isn't it? I'm not sure what set off the brawl with Israeli police but I do know that that evening 450 rockets were launched from Gaza into heavily populated parts of Isreal.  Is that a proportionate response? It does not seem like it to me. 
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
    So when are you going to return your land back to the peoples of the 1st nations?  America and Canada are the last 2 countries that should be pointing fingers...  this not just a left/right issue.  Governments of both liberal or right pretty much support the same policies...
    Not to mention the last 20 years of bullshit war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the bullshit proxy war that the US supports in Yemen...all in the name of getting terrorists?
    yeah because i am personally responsible for the atrocities that were committed in early american history, as well as the war on turr. am i out there stealing land now? fuck no.

    where i live was purchased from the french in 1803. you want to blame someone, blame the colonizers that came here and started all of that.

    if you were around this board in the early 2000s you would have read my posts about the anti war protests i was involved with.

    we as protestors got squashed and gassed by the cops on the order of the government. what do you want me to do? like we were really going to take the streets and stop a fucking war or something.

    My statement stands.  You are just full of excuse.   You arehere now?  1st nations problems have not gone away.  And, they are likely still losing land in the US…give them the Grand Canyon back. … how bout all national parks.  Let them keep the money from those parks… I feel the same here in Canada.

    of course if unrealistic to give our homes and lands back fully…does not mean can not give them back crown land and let them self govern themselves.   The point being the US and Canada need to come to terms with their past land thefts and murderous ways..

    Does not matter where the land was purchased, it’s still stolen.

    and all those treaties were bullshit considering First Nations people did not understand why they were signing…


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    edited May 2021
    mickeyrat said:
    lets recap this a bit.

    religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.

    For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.

    it grew from there.
    While that may have been the spark, this article lays out what has been going on on the ground in East Jerusalem and what the hypocritical Israeli Zionist position has been and continues to be. It’s not reported on and Israeli government leaders continue the myth and promote the hypocrisy, and become indignant when challenged, as I witnessed the deputy foreign minister interviewed on MSNBC.

    Its a long, detailed read and illustrates the Imbalance of power and the utter hopelessness of the Palestinian position. And yea, poor Israel (I’ve got news for you, nuclear powers don’t “go away”).

    This is just a smattering of what is happening, never mind the seizure through condemnation and the illegal settlement movement. What would you do in these situations as described?

    https://jewishcurrents.org/teshuvah-a-jewish-case-for-palestinian-refugee-return/
    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,748
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    lets recap this a bit.

    religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.

    For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.

    it grew from there.
    "For some reason"... that's the real key isn't it? I'm not sure what set off the brawl with Israeli police but I do know that that evening 450 rockets were launched from Gaza into heavily populated parts of Isreal.  Is that a proportionate response? It does not seem like it to me. 

    proportinate response. got it...


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 10,739
    israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
    So when are you going to return your land back to the peoples of the 1st nations?  America and Canada are the last 2 countries that should be pointing fingers...  this not just a left/right issue.  Governments of both liberal or right pretty much support the same policies...
    Not to mention the last 20 years of bullshit war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the bullshit proxy war that the US supports in Yemen...all in the name of getting terrorists?
    yeah because i am personally responsible for the atrocities that were committed in early american history, as well as the war on turr. am i out there stealing land now? fuck no.

    where i live was purchased from the french in 1803. you want to blame someone, blame the colonizers that came here and started all of that.

    if you were around this board in the early 2000s you would have read my posts about the anti war protests i was involved with.

    we as protestors got squashed and gassed by the cops on the order of the government. what do you want me to do? like we were really going to take the streets and stop a fucking war or something.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/25/us/indigenous-people-reclaiming-their-lands-trnd/index.html

    Indigenous people across the US want their land back -- and the movement is gaining momentum


    Yup.  Strictly a problem that needs to be dealt with by the colonizer?  That us…


    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    lets recap this a bit.

    religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.

    For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.

    it grew from there.
    "For some reason"... that's the real key isn't it? I'm not sure what set off the brawl with Israeli police but I do know that that evening 450 rockets were launched from Gaza into heavily populated parts of Isreal.  Is that a proportionate response? It does not seem like it to me. 

    proportinate response. got it...


    "Palestinians do not give separate figures for militants and civilians. Israel does."
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    mrussel1 said:
    israel has a right to defend itself, yes, but it does not have a right to continue to steal land, displace the people who have lived on that land for generations, bulldoze their homes, and build settlements on that land. to me, that is where their right to defend itself ends.
    This is why the ‘both sides’ narrative is BS...it is fundamental to the status quo you describe. 
    So you're saying Palestine authority and Hamas  are completely in the right every single time? You're arguing there would be peace if there were no settlement expansions? I don't think that's true at all. 
    Of course I’m not saying that.  They are government entities, they’re most often wrong.  Fuck the govt entities on both sides.

    But no settlement expansions, enforcement of the 67 borders / UN242,  the right to return, and ending the siege of Gaza are the only starting points that sway the guilt in this conflict to the Palestinians, and give Israel the moral high ground of ‘defence’.  Until Israel adheres to international law, it is PALESTINE’S right to defend itself from an occupying power, not the other way around. 
    I’m not going to pretend the violence and hatred can be undone overnight, but until these things happen, we are arguing hypotheticals. 
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    I honestly have little faith that the 67 borders/right of return are even feasible anymore.  

    So how about equal rights for all, Israeli citizenship for all of the West Bank and gaza?  

    Not happening either - the demographic problem.
    There is no solution to the occupation, no new beginnings to peace, until one of these two things happen...and both are dependent on the actions of Israel.
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    I honestly have little faith that the 67 borders/right of return are even feasible anymore.  

    So how about equal rights for all, Israeli citizenship for all of the West Bank and gaza?  

    Not happening either - the demographic problem.
    There is no solution to the occupation, no new beginnings to peace, until one of these two things happen...and both are dependent on the actions of Israel.
    I agree,  generally,  with all of this.  I think israel is typically the impediment to peace.  However Palestinian internal politics,  interference from Iran and many other factors stand in the way.  And yeah I don't think 67 borders will happen.  The Six Day War is a source of immense pride for the Jews. They will not give that back.  They had been living off the Masada Myth for centuries,  which was a loss battle.  Now they have a real victory. 
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 26,851
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056

    Man… It’s a sad fact that asking for charitable donations for suffering civilians can be considered taking a stand.
  • SeaSea EarthPosts: 2,689
    Please remember, if you see a problem post...report and ignore. Be nice. Discuss, disagree and debate politely.
    Discuss the topic, not the people discussing the topic.


    Please see the Posting Guidelines


    Thank you and please take good care of each other.



  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 26,851

    Man… It’s a sad fact that asking for charitable donations for suffering civilians can be considered taking a stand.
    Too much of a stand:


    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 33,221
    it's a strange phenomenon....longtime conservative members seem to almost always eventually go insane and get themselves banned. 

    10C is healing. 
    I think I'll move to Australia


  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,748
    edited May 2021
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mickeyrat said:
    lets recap this a bit.

    religious faithful went to mosque in Jerusalem during a holy period.

    For some reason, Jerusalem cops cracked down and beat people.

    it grew from there.
    "For some reason"... that's the real key isn't it? I'm not sure what set off the brawl with Israeli police but I do know that that evening 450 rockets were launched from Gaza into heavily populated parts of Isreal.  Is that a proportionate response? It does not seem like it to me. 

    proportinate response. got it...


    "Palestinians do not give separate figures for militants and civilians. Israel does."

    55 children. proportionate response. got it...
    Israel stages new round of heavy airstrikes on Gaza City
    By FARES AKRAM and RAVI NESSMAN
    4 mins ago

    GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli warplanes unleashed a series of heavy airstrikes at several locations of Gaza City early Monday, hours after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu signaled the fourth war with Gaza's Hamas rulers would rage on.

    Explosions rocked the city from north to south for 10 minutes in an attack that was heavier, on a wider area and lasted longer than a series of air raids 24 hours earlier in which 42 Palestinians were killed — the deadliest single attack in the latest round of violence between Israel and the Hamas militant group that rules Gaza. The earlier Israeli airstrikes flattened three buildings.

    In a televised address, Netanyahu said Israel's attacks were continuing at “full-force” and would “take time.“ Israel “wants to levy a heavy price” on the Hamas militant group, he said, flanked by his defense minister and political rival, Benny Gantz, in a show of unity.

    Hamas also pressed on, launching rockets from civilian areas in Gaza toward civilian areas in Israel. One slammed into a synagogue in the southern city of Ashkelon hours before evening services for the Jewish holiday of Shavuot, Israeli emergency services said. No injuries were reported.

    In the Israeli air assault early Sunday, families were buried under piles of cement rubble and twisted rebar. A yellow canary lay crushed on the ground. Shards of glass and debris covered streets blocks away from the major downtown thoroughfare where the three buildings were hit over the course of five minutes around 1 a.m.

    The hostilities have repeatedly escalated over the past week, marking the worst fighting in the territory that is home to 2 million Palestinians since Israel and Hamas' devastating 2014 war.

    “I have not seen this level of destruction through my 14 years of work,” said Samir al-Khatib, an emergency rescue official in Gaza. “Not even in the 2014 war."

    Rescuers furiously dug through the rubble using excavators and bulldozers amid clouds of heavy dust. One shouted, “Can you hear me?” into a hole. Minutes later, first responders pulled a survivor out. The Gaza Health Ministry said 16 women and 10 children were among those killed, with more than 50 people wounded.

    Haya Abdelal, 21, who lives in a building next to one that was destroyed, said she was sleeping when the airstrikes sent her fleeing into the street. She accused Israel of not giving its usual warning to residents to leave before launching such an attack.

    “We are tired,” she said, “We need a truce. We can’t bear it anymore.”

    The Israeli army spokesperson’s office said the strike targeted Hamas “underground military infrastructure."

    As a result of the strike, “the underground facility collapsed, causing the civilian houses' foundations above them to collapse as well, leading to unintended casualties,” it said.

    Among those reported killed was Dr. Ayman Abu Al-Ouf, the head of the internal medicine department at Shifa Hospital and a senior member of the hospital's coronavirus management committee. Two of Abu Al-Ouf’s teenage children and two other family members were also buried under the rubble.

    The death of the 51-year-old physician “was a huge loss at a very sensitive time,” said Mohammed Abu Selmia, the director of Shifa.

    Gaza’s health care system, already gutted by an Israeli and Egyptian blockade imposed in 2007 after Hamas seized power from rival Palestinian forces, had been struggling with a surge in coronavirus infections even before the latest conflict.

    Israel's airstrikes have leveled a number of Gaza City’s tallest buildings, which Israel alleges contained Hamas military infrastructure. Among them was the building housing The Associated Press Gaza office and those of other media outlets.

    Sally Buzbee, the AP's executive editor, called for an independent investigation into the airstrike that destroyed the AP office on Saturday.

    Netanyahu alleged that Hamas military intelligence was operating inside the building and said Sunday any evidence would be shared through intelligence channels. Neither the White House nor the State Department would say if any had been seen.

    “It’s a perfectly legitimate target,” Netanyahu told CBS’s “Face the Nation."

    Asked if he had provided any evidence of Hamas’ presence in the building in a call Saturday with U.S. President Joe Biden, Netanyahu said: “We pass it through our intelligence people.”

    Buzbee called for any such evidence to be laid out. “We are in a conflict situation,” Buzbee said. “We do not take sides in that conflict. We heard Israelis say they have evidence; we don’t know what that evidence is.”

    Meanwhile, media watchdog Reporters Without Borders asked the International Criminal Court on Sunday to investigate Israel’s bombing of the AP building and others housing media organizations as a possible war crime.

    The Paris-based group said in a letter to the court’s chief prosecutor that the offices of 23 international and local media organizations have been destroyed over the past six days. It said the attacks serve “to reduce, if not neutralize, the media’s capacity to inform the public.”

    The AP had operated from the building for 15 years, including through three previous wars between Israel and Hamas. The news agency’s cameras, operating from its top floor office and roof terrace, offered 24-hour live shots as militant rockets arched toward Israel and Israeli airstrikes hammered the city and its surroundings.

    “We think it’s appropriate at this point for there to be an independent look at what happened yesterday — an independent investigation,” Buzbee said.

    The latest outbreak of violence began in east Jerusalem last month, when Palestinians clashed with police in response to Israeli police tactics during Ramadan and the threatened eviction of dozens of Palestinian families by Jewish settlers. A focus of the clashes was the Al-Aqsa Mosque, a frequent flashpoint located on a hilltop compound revered by both Muslims and Jews.

    Hamas began firing rockets toward Jerusalem on Monday, triggering the Israeli assault on Gaza.

    At least 188 Palestinians have been killed in hundreds of airstrikes in Gaza, including 55 children and 33 women, with 1,230 people wounded. Eight people in Israel have been killed in some of the 3,100 rocket attacks launched from Gaza, including a 5-year-old boy and a soldier.

    Hamas and the Islamic Jihad militant group have acknowledged 20 fighters killed in the fighting. Israel says the real number is far higher and has released the names and photos of two dozen alleged operatives it says were “eliminated.”

    The assault has displaced some 34,000 Palestinians from their homes, U.N. Mideast envoy Tor Wennesland told an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council, where eight foreign ministers spoke about the conflict.

    Efforts by China, Norway and Tunisia to get the U.N. body to issue a statement, including a call for the cessation of hostilities, have been blocked by the United States, which, according to diplomats, is concerned it could interfere with diplomatic efforts to stop the violence.

    Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Al-Malki urged the Security Council to take action to end Israeli attacks. Israel’s U.N. ambassador, Gilad Erdan, urged the council to condemn Hamas' “indiscriminate and unprovoked attacks.”

    The turmoil has also fueled protests in the occupied West Bank and stoked violence within Israel between its Jewish and Arab citizens, with clashes and vigilante attacks on people and property.

    On Sunday, a driver rammed into an Israeli checkpoint in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, where Palestinian families have been threatened with eviction , injuring six officers before police shot and killed the attacker, Israeli police said.

    The violence also sparked pro-Palestinian protests in cities across Europe and the United States.

    Israel appears to have stepped up strikes in recent days to inflict as much damage as possible on Hamas as international mediators work to end the fighting and stave off an Israeli ground invasion in Gaza.

    The Israeli military said it destroyed the home Sunday of Gaza’s top Hamas leader, Yahiyeh Sinwar, in the southern town of Khan Younis. It was the third such attack in the last two days on the homes of senior Hamas leaders, who have gone underground.

    ___

    Nessman reported from Atlanta. Associated Press writers Samy Magdy in Cairo, Joseph Krauss and Isaac Scharf in Jerusalem, Edie Lederer at the United Nations and Bassem Mroue in Beirut contributed.


    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    You posted an article that compared deaths over a decade.  I don't defend Israel but Palestine isn't close to being blameless. 
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,748
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    mrussel1 said:
    You posted an article that compared deaths over a decade.  I don't defend Israel but Palestine isn't close to being blameless. 
    Look at last night and today.
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 26,194
    mrussel1 said:
    You posted an article that compared deaths over a decade.  I don't defend Israel but Palestine isn't close to being blameless. 
    Look at last night and today.
    Israel's response is now disproportionate as well,  after Palestine escalated.  And now Jews are being threatened and intimidated in Europe and North America. 
  • JT167846JT167846 Posts: 572
    Bernie Sanders wrote a pretty good article on it.

    You can tell he is walking on eggshells in it but we'd all have to writing anything on this conflict.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/opinion/bernie-sanders-israel-palestine-gaza.html

    I see so many compelling points on both sides, but like with a lot of contentious subjects a lot of people can mistake an irrefutable point for a winning of the argument. I try and look at those as merely points (or tries/goals/touchdowns/whatever) that advance a cause in my opinion instead of being a straight out game winner. Plus when we're in these discussions we seem to completely forget the concept of the devil's advocate. We can get so defensive that if someone makes a point against our position we can jump to conclusions and assume they are against our position in general. Which in this case can lead you to being called a Nazi, Islamophobic, antisemitic, racist and so on. Even if you don't have skin in the game and are trying to look at stuff from all angles. What does get my goat is people calling each other ignorant for making a point against their position, which can betray ignorance itself in that the person making the point may be a lot more knowledgeable than the other suspects but is merely making a point that they don't like.

    The more I learn about the conflict (and hell I was studying it 25 years ago) the more my head spins. But at least it's not discouraging me from keeping on finding out more about it.
    Stars are suns to other people.

    Wellington 1998
    London 2007
    Brisbane 2009
    Stockholm 2012
    Amsterdam 1 & 2 2014
    EV Dublin 2017
    Milan 2018
    Padova 2018
    Boston 2 2018
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 32,071
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    You posted an article that compared deaths over a decade.  I don't defend Israel but Palestine isn't close to being blameless. 
    Look at last night and today.
    Israel's response is now disproportionate as well,  after Palestine escalated.  And now Jews are being threatened and intimidated in Europe and North America. 
    When did Palestine escalate? What’s your marker?
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 26,851
    edited May 2021
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • 23scidoo23scidoo Thessaloniki,GreecePosts: 16,692
    Hobbes said:
    Rant starts about 4:10.


    This..
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
  • 23scidoo23scidoo Thessaloniki,GreecePosts: 16,692

    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
  • 23scidoo23scidoo Thessaloniki,GreecePosts: 16,692
    Idris Elba:



    seems like a better human being than Joe Biden:


    Yeah, yeah, Mr. President..teach us history..
    Athens 2006. Dusseldorf 2007. Berlin 2009. Venice 2010. Amsterdam 1 2012. Amsterdam 1+2 2014. Buenos Aires 2015.
    Prague Krakow Berlin 2018. Berlin 2022
    EV, Taormina 1+2 2017.

    I wish i was the souvenir you kept your house key on..
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 26,748
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    You posted an article that compared deaths over a decade.  I don't defend Israel but Palestine isn't close to being blameless. 
    Look at last night and today.
    Israel's response is now disproportionate as well,  after Palestine escalated.  And now Jews are being threatened and intimidated in Europe and North America. 
    When did Palestine escalate? What’s your marker?

    rockets that are being handled by iron dome with high effectiveness.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

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