I would not have thought of it that way, gimme, but after the conversation I had with a good friend earlier this evening, I get it. This lady friend and my wife and I had a nice dinner and afterwards started out with a pleasant conversation that soon enough, seemingly of its own accord, turned to talking about Trump.
It started when I began to leaf through a very nice photo book about Obama and I said, "Oh my god, look at these great pictures." The images reflected pride, intelligence, joy, concern, hope, conviction, and the people looked like people you would like to meet.
But then one of us mentioned Trump and the heaviness descended like a wet blanket in a damp dark fog. Body language and faces sagged, and we felt worried, unhappy, disillusioned, sad, angry, frustrated. It was all there- the horrid reality of what has become of so much of America. We all talked about how this hits us everyday. Every damn day.
And there was one word from this friend was one I had never heard her utter about another person: "hate". And we were in agreement.
It was really hard to end the evening on a more upbeat note.
any mention of trump can have that effect on a group of people who have empathy. sorry orange twat ruined the evening.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Just a ? If Baffoon doesn’t order the assasination of General does this plane get shot down?
Just a question...if the US embassy wasn’t attacked does trump kill the general? This is why this argument gets really fuzzy and ultimately Iran owns shooting down and killing all those people
what about if we had not invaded iraq, would the embassy even be there to be attacked? Everything we do in that region has a consequence and as long as we are there, we will reap the consequences in perpetuity until we get out of the region.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,283
I would not have thought of it that way, gimme, but after the conversation I had with a good friend earlier this evening, I get it. This lady friend and my wife and I had a nice dinner and afterwards started out with a pleasant conversation that soon enough, seemingly of its own accord, turned to talking about Trump.
It started when I began to leaf through a very nice photo book about Obama and I said, "Oh my god, look at these great pictures." The images reflected pride, intelligence, joy, concern, hope, conviction, and the people looked like people you would like to meet.
But then one of us mentioned Trump and the heaviness descended like a wet blanket in a damp dark fog. Body language and faces sagged, and we felt worried, unhappy, disillusioned, sad, angry, frustrated. It was all there- the horrid reality of what has become of so much of America. We all talked about how this hits us everyday. Every damn day.
And there was one word from this friend was one I had never heard her utter about another person: "hate". And we were in agreement.
It was really hard to end the evening on a more upbeat note.
any mention of trump can have that effect on a group of people who have empathy. sorry orange twat ruined the evening.
Thanks! It was mostly great. The thing is, when you're with people who are concerned about things, it's almost inevitable that his name will come up. Thus starts the rounds of puking!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Just a ? If Baffoon doesn’t order the assasination of General does this plane get shot down?
Just a question...if the US embassy wasn’t attacked does trump kill the general? This is why this argument gets really fuzzy and ultimately Iran owns shooting down and killing all those people
If Bush and Cheney werent the lying scumbags they are , is trump in the position to kill the general......
We can go back further than that...my point is sure there are situations that lead to different environments. But you own how you respond.
true, and its inconceivable it would have been done deliberately. made no sense. 82 of their own were on board and would assume most of the 57 Canadians were of Iranian descent
given how close tehran is to the caspian sea (seems the quickest infil route), and how tense shit was, remember how close to actual war we also believed we were, human fuck up does make the most sense.
yeah i was wrong about this. i could not fathom iranians shooting down their own airliner. at least iran admitted to it. it made no sense to me for them to shoot down a plane on purpose. they must have thought that that was an american plane incoming with bombs or something.
still it should not have happened. why did iran not ground all flights and close down their airspace to all commercial flights when they got word of missiles being deployed?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?
I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?
I can take a wild guess.
I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...
i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that.
Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap.
I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane. If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.
My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon.
Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours.
I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.
Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.
I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless. because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.
With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known. Whereas the plane is a known unknown. There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated. Robby's point is right, in my mind. When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage. You don't know what it is, but it's coming. In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first. The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.
I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.
Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?
i asked this exact same question and *crickets*.
The two are not comparable.
if this general was as evil as everyone is making him out to be, having killed hundreds of americans, how is that not comparable? I find that HIGHLY comparable.
One major difference, one was the leader of a nationless terrorist organization and the other was the number 2 “leader” of a sovereign nation. Believe it or not, there are rules of engagement for war and how nations treat one another. What Team Trump Treason did was tell anyone not happy with a country’s leadership, that it’s ok to drone strike them at an airport in a third party country.
Obama surely asked detailed and pertinent questions regarding risk, both immediate and 10 steps down the line. He analyzed and considered the potential ramifications. Team Trump Treason? Not so much. There should be a House investigation regarding the “imminent” threat justification and someone should ask those informing Team Trump Treason of the opportunity, what questions he asked during the deliberations.
Darth Cheney and Rumsfeld are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Are you okay with them being drone striked in London or Paris or Denver?
as i have repeatedly said, i am against all murder, no matter who it is. you obviously know the answer to this ridiculous question.
And yet you compared the two, basically saying that because Soleimani was responsible for hundreds of deaths, he’s in the same camp as bin Laden and thus Obama is in the same camp as Team Trump Treason. I explained to you why I believe that’s a false equivalency. Then you frame it as a ridiculous question. Makes sense.
nope. not what i said at all. as usual. moving on.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Just a ? If Baffoon doesn’t order the assasination of General does this plane get shot down?
Just a question...if the US embassy wasn’t attacked does trump kill the general? This is why this argument gets really fuzzy and ultimately Iran owns shooting down and killing all those people
what about if we had not invaded iraq, would the embassy even be there to be attacked? Everything we do in that region has a consequence and as long as we are there, we will reap the consequences in perpetuity until we get out of the region.
And the point is missed. If we are just going to blame previous actions for all subsequent actions then we have a long way to go.
iran owns killing those people with their inept “self-defense”
Just a ? If Baffoon doesn’t order the assasination of General does this plane get shot down?
Just a question...if the US embassy wasn’t attacked does trump kill the general? This is why this argument gets really fuzzy and ultimately Iran owns shooting down and killing all those people
what about if we had not invaded iraq, would the embassy even be there to be attacked? Everything we do in that region has a consequence and as long as we are there, we will reap the consequences in perpetuity until we get out of the region.
And the point is missed. If we are just going to blame previous actions for all subsequent actions then we have a long way to go.
iran owns killing those people with their inept “self-defense”
no man. we do not kill the general, those missiles do not get fired at the airplane and those people would be alive.
agree to disagree.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Just a ? If Baffoon doesn’t order the assasination of General does this plane get shot down?
Just a question...if the US embassy wasn’t attacked does trump kill the general? This is why this argument gets really fuzzy and ultimately Iran owns shooting down and killing all those people
what about if we had not invaded iraq, would the embassy even be there to be attacked? Everything we do in that region has a consequence and as long as we are there, we will reap the consequences in perpetuity until we get out of the region.
And the point is missed. If we are just going to blame previous actions for all subsequent actions then we have a long way to go.
iran owns killing those people with their inept “self-defense”
no man. we do not kill the general, those missiles do not get fired at the airplane and those people would be alive.
agree to disagree.
Particularly given that the threat wasn’t “imminent.” More likely, there was no threat at all.
Just a ? If Baffoon doesn’t order the assasination of General does this plane get shot down?
Just a question...if the US embassy wasn’t attacked does trump kill the general? This is why this argument gets really fuzzy and ultimately Iran owns shooting down and killing all those people
what about if we had not invaded iraq, would the embassy even be there to be attacked? Everything we do in that region has a consequence and as long as we are there, we will reap the consequences in perpetuity until we get out of the region.
And the point is missed. If we are just going to blame previous actions for all subsequent actions then we have a long way to go.
iran owns killing those people with their inept “self-defense”
no man. we do not kill the general, those missiles do not get fired at the airplane and those people would be alive.
agree to disagree.
Sure. In a long chain of events. But ok, agree to disagree.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
wow from the same tweet @pjl44 : 3. What brought down the plane. The Iranian government completely mishandled the plane crash, destroying evidence in the process. Iranians are in the street calling for death to the Supreme Leader (something that could get them executed). 4. Iranians are in the street calling for prosecutions, saying Soleimani is a murderer. Telling leadership of the Iranian government to resign and saying that Trump isn't the problem, that the Iranian government is.
To say that these protesters are brave is an understatement 5. Nearly 2 months ago, Iran massacred hundreds (at least) and up to 1,500 of its citizens in the streets for protesting against gas prices. People in the streets are taking an enormous risk not only by protesting but by saying what they're saying like death to the Supreme Leader a 7. Yesterday I tweeted this thread and was criticized by liberals who are intent on blaming this plane crash on President Trump. As I note in my thread, the idea that he's to blame for a decision the IRGC made is just absurd. 8. And while Iranians aren't a monolith and there are 80 million people in Iran, you don't see Iranians blaming President Trump for the cash (in which Iranian citizens were killed). They're blaming the IRGC and the Supreme Leader for a series of horrific mistakes
wow from the same tweet @pjl44 : 3. What brought down the plane. The Iranian government completely mishandled the plane crash, destroying evidence in the process. Iranians are in the street calling for death to the Supreme Leader (something that could get them executed). 4. Iranians are in the street calling for prosecutions, saying Soleimani is a murderer. Telling leadership of the Iranian government to resign and saying that Trump isn't the problem, that the Iranian government is.
To say that these protesters are brave is an understatement 5. Nearly 2 months ago, Iran massacred hundreds (at least) and up to 1,500 of its citizens in the streets for protesting against gas prices. People in the streets are taking an enormous risk not only by protesting but by saying what they're saying like death to the Supreme Leader a 7. Yesterday I tweeted this thread and was criticized by liberals who are intent on blaming this plane crash on President Trump. As I note in my thread, the idea that he's to blame for a decision the IRGC made is just absurd. 8. And while Iranians aren't a monolith and there are 80 million people in Iran, you don't see Iranians blaming President Trump for the cash (in which Iranian citizens were killed). They're blaming the IRGC and the Supreme Leader for a series of horrific mistakes
I've seen some people refer to this event as a "Chernobyl" moment. Things seem to be boiling over, but we'll see.
Just a ? If Baffoon doesn’t order the assasination of General does this plane get shot down?
Just a question...if the US embassy wasn’t attacked does trump kill the general? This is why this argument gets really fuzzy and ultimately Iran owns shooting down and killing all those people
what about if we had not invaded iraq, would the embassy even be there to be attacked? Everything we do in that region has a consequence and as long as we are there, we will reap the consequences in perpetuity until we get out of the region.
And the point is missed. If we are just going to blame previous actions for all subsequent actions then we have a long way to go.
iran owns killing those people with their inept “self-defense”
no man. we do not kill the general, those missiles do not get fired at the airplane and those people would be alive.
agree to disagree.
Sure. In a long chain of events. But ok, agree to disagree.
I’ve actually thought the same thing. If we’re blaming Trump for the plane with the logic of if we didn’t kill the general then they would shoot down a plane. So how far back do we go? Embassy attacked like you said, to the war in Iraq, the first war in Iraq. Well that war wouldn’t have happened if we didn’t help Saddam gain power. So how far back do we go, or can we just say Iran is responsible for shooting down the plane?
even the iranian people are blaming their own government, not trump.
That's quite the monolithic statement. From what I've read, the protesters are making statements about the lying, not specifically the action.
See number 8 in the tweet I referenced.
Their chants were about the lying government, was my understanding. Although there's been general civil unrest for several years. Which is why I believe and still believe the strike was a mistake. Anything that conjures feelings of national unity between the youth and the theocracy hurts our effort to bring the country west
Canadian CEO blasts Trump over downed plane in Iran: 'I am livid'
"I’m Michael McCain, CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, and these are personal reflections. I am very angry, and time isn’t making me less angry. A MLF colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran..." he tweeted.
"…U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes. The world knows Iran is a dangerous state, but the world found a path to contain it; not perfect but by most accounts it was the right direction…"
"A narcissist in Washington tears world accomplishments apart; destabilizes region. US now unwelcomed everywhere in the area including Iraq; tensions escalated to feverish pitch. Taking out despicable military leader terrorist? There are a hundred like him, standing next in line," he continued.
"The collateral damage of this irresponsible, dangerous, ill-conceived behavior? 63 Canadians needlessly lost their lives in the crossfire, including the family of one of my MLF colleagues (his wife + 11 year old son)!" McCain tweeted.
Canadian CEO blasts Trump over downed plane in Iran: 'I am livid'
"I’m Michael McCain, CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, and these are personal reflections. I am very angry, and time isn’t making me less angry. A MLF colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran..." he tweeted.
"…U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes. The world knows Iran is a dangerous state, but the world found a path to contain it; not perfect but by most accounts it was the right direction…"
"A narcissist in Washington tears world accomplishments apart; destabilizes region. US now unwelcomed everywhere in the area including Iraq; tensions escalated to feverish pitch. Taking out despicable military leader terrorist? There are a hundred like him, standing next in line," he continued.
"The collateral damage of this irresponsible, dangerous, ill-conceived behavior? 63 Canadians needlessly lost their lives in the crossfire, including the family of one of my MLF colleagues (his wife + 11 year old son)!" McCain tweeted.
I haven't been paying attention to this particular angle, but is Canada planning to do anything about this? To whomever they hold responsible, be it the US or Iran? Or will they just have their business leaders bitch about Trump?
Canadian CEO blasts Trump over downed plane in Iran: 'I am livid'
"I’m Michael McCain, CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, and these are personal reflections. I am very angry, and time isn’t making me less angry. A MLF colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran..." he tweeted.
"…U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes. The world knows Iran is a dangerous state, but the world found a path to contain it; not perfect but by most accounts it was the right direction…"
"A narcissist in Washington tears world accomplishments apart; destabilizes region. US now unwelcomed everywhere in the area including Iraq; tensions escalated to feverish pitch. Taking out despicable military leader terrorist? There are a hundred like him, standing next in line," he continued.
"The collateral damage of this irresponsible, dangerous, ill-conceived behavior? 63 Canadians needlessly lost their lives in the crossfire, including the family of one of my MLF colleagues (his wife + 11 year old son)!" McCain tweeted.
I haven't been paying attention to this particular angle, but is Canada planning to do anything about this? To whomever they hold responsible, be it the US or Iran? Or will they just have their business leaders bitch about Trump?
Bitching is phase 1. Really bitching is scheduled for next week.
Canadian CEO blasts Trump over downed plane in Iran: 'I am livid'
"I’m Michael McCain, CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, and these are personal reflections. I am very angry, and time isn’t making me less angry. A MLF colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran..." he tweeted.
"…U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes. The world knows Iran is a dangerous state, but the world found a path to contain it; not perfect but by most accounts it was the right direction…"
"A narcissist in Washington tears world accomplishments apart; destabilizes region. US now unwelcomed everywhere in the area including Iraq; tensions escalated to feverish pitch. Taking out despicable military leader terrorist? There are a hundred like him, standing next in line," he continued.
"The collateral damage of this irresponsible, dangerous, ill-conceived behavior? 63 Canadians needlessly lost their lives in the crossfire, including the family of one of my MLF colleagues (his wife + 11 year old son)!" McCain tweeted.
I haven't been paying attention to this particular angle, but is Canada planning to do anything about this? To whomever they hold responsible, be it the US or Iran? Or will they just have their business leaders bitch about Trump?
Bitching is phase 1. Really bitching is scheduled for next week.
I don't think I'm ready for that level of Canadian aggression
Canadian CEO blasts Trump over downed plane in Iran: 'I am livid'
"I’m Michael McCain, CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, and these are personal reflections. I am very angry, and time isn’t making me less angry. A MLF colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran..." he tweeted.
"…U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes. The world knows Iran is a dangerous state, but the world found a path to contain it; not perfect but by most accounts it was the right direction…"
"A narcissist in Washington tears world accomplishments apart; destabilizes region. US now unwelcomed everywhere in the area including Iraq; tensions escalated to feverish pitch. Taking out despicable military leader terrorist? There are a hundred like him, standing next in line," he continued.
"The collateral damage of this irresponsible, dangerous, ill-conceived behavior? 63 Canadians needlessly lost their lives in the crossfire, including the family of one of my MLF colleagues (his wife + 11 year old son)!" McCain tweeted.
Not to some here he can only be blamed for something he did directly not something that was caused by his decisions , just like the kids that are separated from their parents! That’s not on him but some other smuck that works for the impeached idiot ..
Comments
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I think its a joke like "Sillius Soddus" or " Biggus Dickus", sir!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Thanks! It was mostly great. The thing is, when you're with people who are concerned about things, it's almost inevitable that his name will come up. Thus starts the rounds of puking!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
still it should not have happened. why did iran not ground all flights and close down their airspace to all commercial flights when they got word of missiles being deployed?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
-EV 8/14/93
iran owns killing those people with their inept “self-defense”
agree to disagree.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
https://aje.io/jtp9a
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
3. What brought down the plane. The Iranian government completely mishandled the plane crash, destroying evidence in the process. Iranians are in the street calling for death to the Supreme Leader (something that could get them executed).
4. Iranians are in the street calling for prosecutions, saying Soleimani is a murderer. Telling leadership of the Iranian government to resign and saying that Trump isn't the problem, that the Iranian government is. To say that these protesters are brave is an understatement
5. Nearly 2 months ago, Iran massacred hundreds (at least) and up to 1,500 of its citizens in the streets for protesting against gas prices. People in the streets are taking an enormous risk not only by protesting but by saying what they're saying like death to the Supreme Leader a
7. Yesterday I tweeted this thread and was criticized by liberals who are intent on blaming this plane crash on President Trump. As I note in my thread, the idea that he's to blame for a decision the IRGC made is just absurd.
8. And while Iranians aren't a monolith and there are 80 million people in Iran, you don't see Iranians blaming President Trump for the cash (in which Iranian citizens were killed). They're blaming the IRGC and the Supreme Leader for a series of horrific mistakes
-EV 8/14/93
@mrussel1
Canadian CEO blasts Trump over downed plane in Iran: 'I am livid'
"I’m Michael McCain, CEO of Maple Leaf Foods, and these are personal reflections. I am very angry, and time isn’t making me less angry. A MLF colleague of mine lost his wife and family this week to a needless, irresponsible series of events in Iran..." he tweeted.
"…U.S. government leaders unconstrained by checks/balances, concocted an ill-conceived plan to divert focus from political woes. The world knows Iran is a dangerous state, but the world found a path to contain it; not perfect but by most accounts it was the right direction…"
"A narcissist in Washington tears world accomplishments apart; destabilizes region. US now unwelcomed everywhere in the area including Iraq; tensions escalated to feverish pitch. Taking out despicable military leader terrorist? There are a hundred like him, standing next in line," he continued.
"The collateral damage of this irresponsible, dangerous, ill-conceived behavior? 63 Canadians needlessly lost their lives in the crossfire, including the family of one of my MLF colleagues (his wife + 11 year old son)!" McCain tweeted.
"We are mourning and I am livid," he concluded.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/477930-canadian-ceo-blasts-trump-over-downed-plane-in-iran-i-am-livid