Sam Smith....evidence rock and roll may finally be dead

vant0037

buck502000 said:

vant0037 said:

Rock and roll was never defined by a festival lineup.

I can hit it when you throw it right down the middle - Woodstock

Woodstock defined rock and roll? I think the fact that Woodstock even could exist in the way that it did is proof positive to just the opposite.

DewieCox

I dunno...I think if you say "Define rock and roll with one word", Woodstock is gonna be one of the first replies. I do get the point about rock not being defined by a festival lineup, but Woodstock came pretty damn close when you look at the performers and the spirit with which it was put together.

tempo_n_groove

Define rock in one word? Two come to mind...

Chuck and Didley!!!

lolobugg

tempo_n_groove said:

Define rock in one word? Two come to mind...

Chuck and Didley!!!

^ def this

Agg

Of The Aggie said:

DewieCox said:

Pop music seems to have more musical talent on display than what is popular with rock music. People like Lady Gaga and Bruno Mars are insanely talented musicians. The same can't really be said for the many rock acts that make a big splash.

I don't care if Lady Gaga or Bruno Mars can play an instrument or write their own songs, their music is down right terrible to me.

Tim Simmons said:

Also if this is in reference to the V fest announcement, just go see Kasabian instead. They aren't very good, but there is your rock.

Kasabian are a very good live band. I like a lot of their songs and their show would be 1000X better than any pop act.

I agree that Lady Gaga's music is terrible, but not Bruno Mars. I hated him until Uptown Funk, but once that came out, I liked it so much that I bought his two previous CDs. I think he's very talented. His ballads are hit or miss (Just The Way You Are is terrible, imo), but I definitely wouldn't group him in with most of the other pop crap out there. Plus, I think he plays about 5 instruments, not just one.

lolobugg

Agg said:

Of The Aggie said:

DewieCox said:

Pop music seems to have more musical talent on display than what is popular with rock music. People like Lady Gaga and Bruno Mars are insanely talented musicians. The same can't really be said for the many rock acts that make a big splash.

I don't care if Lady Gaga or Bruno Mars can play an instrument or write their own songs, their music is down right terrible to me.

Tim Simmons said:

Also if this is in reference to the V fest announcement, just go see Kasabian instead. They aren't very good, but there is your rock.

Kasabian are a very good live band. I like a lot of their songs and their show would be 1000X better than any pop act.

I agree that Lady Gaga's music is terrible, but not Bruno Mars. I hated him until Uptown Funk, but once that came out, I liked it so much that I bought his two previous CDs. I think he's very talented. His ballads are hit or miss (Just The Way You Are is terrible, imo), but I definitely wouldn't group him in with most of the other pop crap out there. Plus, I think he plays about 5 instruments, not just one.

I liked Bruno better the first time I heard him....
when he was called James Brown.

PJ_Soul

It seems to me that rock is alive and well. I spend a lot of time listening to new rock artists and spend a lot of money on them too, and I'm pretty sure I'm not just dreaming it.
Nevertheless, having Sam Smith headline a rock festival is fucking stupid.

Attaway77

I'm confused here, please help me. Is Sam Smith headlining a "Rock" festival or is he headlining a music festival? Could give two shits about the guy, but he has some good songs. Isn't that what your suppose to do if you have talent at your chosen profession, make music and go play it live to the audience who wants to hear it? I saw Squamish Valley Music Festival, not Squamish Valley Rock Festival. Who gives a shit? It's music and people enjoy it just like we enjoy PJ.. Music is meant to be explored, not enjoyed behind closed doors.

mwplum

But the point is this segment of "music" would never be "enjoyed behind closed doors" because it's exactly the type of music that gets pushed in commercials, by corporations, by live nation in promoting their massive stadium tours...it easily digested and mass marketed...it is the fast food of music.

I am frankly shocked by the support of PJ fans for having such "artists" headline festivals.

Let's not kid ourselves, these are traditionally rock festivals. If you look at Woodstock, it's real full name was the Woodstock Music & Art Fair...but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it wasn't a rock festival.

I once saw an interview with Justin Bieber when he was a kid, and it was about how talented he was, claiming that he could play like 30 different instruments. It would say something like... "he can play the drums" and then he would come over and bang out some out of time noise for 10 seconds, and then "he can play the trumpet" and he'd come over and play one note out of trumpet note, "bbvmmmmmmm".....so while the narrator was trying to sell the audience on him being this multi-instrument prodigy....the truth was he was a propped up little puppet that could play multiple instruments no better then my dog can.

The reason I hark back to that example is because I get the feeling its the same with Bruno. Does he actually play multiple instruments on his albums (say like Dave Grohl did on the self-titled FF debut?) or is it the multi-instrument story just an easily digested narrative to make people think he is "so talented"...I claim ignorance as I only saw him at the Super Bowl, where the drum beat he was playing was so basic that someone could play it after their first lesson. To me that does not make them talented, it just makes them more marketable.

JH6056

mwplum said:

But the point is this segment of "music" would never be "enjoyed behind closed doors" because it's exactly the type of music that gets pushed in commercials, by corporations, by live nation in promoting their massive stadium tours...it easily digested and mass marketed...it is the fast food of music.

I am frankly shocked by the support of PJ fans for having such "artists" headline festivals.

Let's not kid ourselves, these are traditionally rock festivals. If you look at Woodstock, it's real full name was the Woodstock Music & Art Fair...but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it wasn't a rock festival.

I once saw an interview with Justin Bieber when he was a kid, and it was about how talented he was, claiming that he could play like 30 different instruments. It would say something like... "he can play the drums" and then he would come over and bang out some out of time noise for 10 seconds, and then "he can play the trumpet" and he'd come over and play one note out of trumpet note, "bbvmmmmmmm".....so while the narrator was trying to sell the audience on him being this multi-instrument prodigy....the truth was he was a propped up little puppet that could play multiple instruments no better then my dog can.

The reason I hark back to that example is because I get the feeling its the same with Bruno. Does he actually play multiple instruments on his albums (say like Dave Grohl did on the self-titled FF debut?) or is it the multi-instrument story just an easily digested narrative to make people think he is "so talented"...I claim ignorance as I only saw him at the Super Bowl, where the drum beat he was playing was so basic that someone could play it after their first lesson. To me that does not make them talented, it just makes them more marketable.

To me, the consistent point made by many PJ fans here is: you are already screwed if you're looking to who is headlining festivals to tell you whether rock is alive and well. Just because there are waves of when festival headliners might be more "legit" according to PJ fans, and this seasons is not one of those waves, does not mean there isn't amazing rock happening in clubs, at the lower lineup tiers of those festivals (the "undercard"), or on local scenes.

Rock has NEVER been best represented by what the most visible, popular, successful events deem "worthy". That was your first and main mistake in this conversation.

Agg

mwplum said:

But the point is this segment of "music" would never be "enjoyed behind closed doors" because it's exactly the type of music that gets pushed in commercials, by corporations, by live nation in promoting their massive stadium tours...it easily digested and mass marketed...it is the fast food of music.

I am frankly shocked by the support of PJ fans for having such "artists" headline festivals.

Let's not kid ourselves, these are traditionally rock festivals. If you look at Woodstock, it's real full name was the Woodstock Music & Art Fair...but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it wasn't a rock festival.

I once saw an interview with Justin Bieber when he was a kid, and it was about how talented he was, claiming that he could play like 30 different instruments. It would say something like... "he can play the drums" and then he would come over and bang out some out of time noise for 10 seconds, and then "he can play the trumpet" and he'd come over and play one note out of trumpet note, "bbvmmmmmmm".....so while the narrator was trying to sell the audience on him being this multi-instrument prodigy....the truth was he was a propped up little puppet that could play multiple instruments no better then my dog can.

The reason I hark back to that example is because I get the feeling its the same with Bruno. Does he actually play multiple instruments on his albums (say like Dave Grohl did on the self-titled FF debut?) or is it the multi-instrument story just an easily digested narrative to make people think he is "so talented"...I claim ignorance as I only saw him at the Super Bowl, where the drum beat he was playing was so basic that someone could play it after their first lesson. To me that does not make them talented, it just makes them more marketable.

I'm not sure about Bruno's second album, but I know that on his debut album he did play most of the instruments himself (and wrote the songs). I think he also plays the drums/guitar/keyboard for certain songs during his shows. Of course there are a lot of other artists that do this, but I do think he's much more talented than popstars like Bieber, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift, etc. This is coming from someone who hates 99.9% of pop music, but Bruno's the one "pop" artist I'll listen to and I'd be happy to see him at a festival.

mwplum

JH6056 said:

mwplum said:

But the point is this segment of "music" would never be "enjoyed behind closed doors" because it's exactly the type of music that gets pushed in commercials, by corporations, by live nation in promoting their massive stadium tours...it easily digested and mass marketed...it is the fast food of music.

I am frankly shocked by the support of PJ fans for having such "artists" headline festivals.

Let's not kid ourselves, these are traditionally rock festivals. If you look at Woodstock, it's real full name was the Woodstock Music & Art Fair...but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it wasn't a rock festival.

I once saw an interview with Justin Bieber when he was a kid, and it was about how talented he was, claiming that he could play like 30 different instruments. It would say something like... "he can play the drums" and then he would come over and bang out some out of time noise for 10 seconds, and then "he can play the trumpet" and he'd come over and play one note out of trumpet note, "bbvmmmmmmm".....so while the narrator was trying to sell the audience on him being this multi-instrument prodigy....the truth was he was a propped up little puppet that could play multiple instruments no better then my dog can.

The reason I hark back to that example is because I get the feeling its the same with Bruno. Does he actually play multiple instruments on his albums (say like Dave Grohl did on the self-titled FF debut?) or is it the multi-instrument story just an easily digested narrative to make people think he is "so talented"...I claim ignorance as I only saw him at the Super Bowl, where the drum beat he was playing was so basic that someone could play it after their first lesson. To me that does not make them talented, it just makes them more marketable.

To me, the consistent point made by many PJ fans here is: you are already screwed if you're looking to who is headlining festivals to tell you whether rock is alive and well. Just because there are waves of when festival headliners might be more "legit" according to PJ fans, and this seasons is not one of those waves, does not mean there isn't amazing rock happening in clubs, at the lower lineup tiers of those festivals (the "undercard"), or on local scenes.

Rock has NEVER been best represented by what the most visible, popular, successful events deem "worthy". That was your first and main mistake in this conversation.

^^^I think you've focused a little too much on the title and not the content of my original post

I clearly don't think that rock is dead, or that rock will ever be dead. I go to tons of shows at smaller venues, and in the last year have seen great shows from the likes of Metz, Cloud Nothings, Ty Segall, etc...

The point was that if you look at the past histories of festivals such as Coachella, ACL, Lolla, and Bonnaroo, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone as commercial as Sam Smith, or as boring as Sam Smith, or as least qualified to close a festival as Sam Smith. I can think of very few artists who have been honoured with a headlining slot at a festival after only one album. Can you think of any others? I honestly cannot think of one.

This is the second weak year of festivals as a whole, and I'm interested to see if this signals a more permanent change (a reactive change to the vast increase in the number of new festivals all fighting for the same dollar), or is just a passing wave. Time will tell.

Tim Simmons

I think your disconnect is that you view pop music as less legitimate than rock, because the easy answer to your original questions is rock isn't popular any more and Sam Smith is. (and there are very few headlining rock acts touring this year, let alone in general).

If you can't respect people who don't play every instrument, or sell pepsi or whatever, That's fine, that's on you (personally I think you are missing out on some enjoyable fun music). But the reality is a large group of people are fine with that and the festivals are going to change to incorporate that because ultimately, festivals exist because they know some people like music and they want to make money from that. They don't give a shit about progressing "the cause" of rock, or EDM, or political folk. They reflect the times, at times they may be the zeitgeist (like Woodstock), but for the most part, they are just an extension, a touchstone, never the actual cultural moment.


Personally, I used to think the same way about pop music as you. Less legitimate. But I've found as I got older, I was just missing out on other good music. It may not always be deep, but that's Ok. I guarantee you the amount of effort put into a Kelly Clarkson song that is written for her, or the effort Taylor Swift puts into her music. or Beyonce and her co-writers and producers, or Kanye West and his samples, is every iota the amount of effort put into a Pearl Jam song. I think that makes it every bit as legitimate and other music crafted by bands that create music in a different way.

Tim Simmons

Ultimately the market will decide if Sam Smith was a good choice. I suspect it will be fine, but he's been doing arena shows in the US and UK, so I'm sure he has enough material for a set.

Arcade Fire headlined Lolla after 1 album, Hell, the Postal Service headlined a shitload of festivals and they were famous for having only 1 album.

While it's not common to healing after 1 album, I think it's a testament to how popular someone is. And Sam Smith is pretty popular right now. Especially after the Grammys.

mwplum

Hey Tim, I like your opinions and this is interesting dialogue. I wonder if my opinions may change over time too. Out of interest, did your opinions change after having kids (assuming you have kids)? I don't, but I have 4 and 1 year old niece/nephew, and I find these songs somewhat more tolerable when sung/enjoyed by them (i.e. the Frozen song, etc...) Seeing how happy it makes them, makes my old snobby/grinchy opinions seem to melt a bit.

Still I wouldn't choose it for casual listening or at festivals, but who knows? Maybe that will change over time. At one point I enjoyed hip hop, but cringe at the thought of most of it now. Life is all about progression, and yeah, maybe someday I'll be listening to Miley, Ke$ha, and Taylor Swift (or their future counterparts).

As for 1 album trivia....good try, but I'd say we're still looking for a winner...

First time Arcade Fire played Lolla was in 2005, and were billed on the posted behind Pixies, Widespread Panic, Weezer, Killers, Primus, Dinosaur Jr. Cake, Dashboard Confessional....on their night, they were high up there, but still behind the Killers on that stage. Using Coachella as an example too, they had to really work their way for that honour. After playing during the day on the second stage in 2005, they worked their way up to third on the MainStage by 2007, before finally being honoured with headline slots in 2011 and 2014.

Also with Postal Service, they still for the most part weren't headlining major festivals (maybe smaller ones). When I saw them at Coachella, they were the third headliner on the MainStage behind even the xx and Phoenix (plus they weren't exactly coming off their first album, as I'm sure you know, they were celebrating the 10th anniversary of a platinum selling album, which essentially defined a generation).

This is fun though, any other answers out there? Name one band/artist that has headlined major festivals say the last say 15 years after one album?

Tim Simmons

My opinions did change before my kids, but now having them I have to say its nice to have this music to fall back on. But I don't play it to them exclusively. They Hear Aphex Twin, Sleater Kinney, Thee Oh Sees, Taylor Swift, and clean versions of Kanye albums.

I'm still saying the Postal Service is my winner. They headlined Sasquach and Lolla for sure, those are pretty big. And technically they were coming off their first (and only) album, it just took them 10 years to do it. I'm sure Sam Smith and them are comparable in terms of popularity (but probably not influence).

JH6056

mwplum said:

JH6056 said:

mwplum said:

But the point is this segment of "music" would never be "enjoyed behind closed doors" because it's exactly the type of music that gets pushed in commercials, by corporations, by live nation in promoting their massive stadium tours...it easily digested and mass marketed...it is the fast food of music.

I am frankly shocked by the support of PJ fans for having such "artists" headline festivals.

Let's not kid ourselves, these are traditionally rock festivals. If you look at Woodstock, it's real full name was the Woodstock Music & Art Fair...but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue it wasn't a rock festival.

I once saw an interview with Justin Bieber when he was a kid, and it was about how talented he was, claiming that he could play like 30 different instruments. It would say something like... "he can play the drums" and then he would come over and bang out some out of time noise for 10 seconds, and then "he can play the trumpet" and he'd come over and play one note out of trumpet note, "bbvmmmmmmm".....so while the narrator was trying to sell the audience on him being this multi-instrument prodigy....the truth was he was a propped up little puppet that could play multiple instruments no better then my dog can.

The reason I hark back to that example is because I get the feeling its the same with Bruno. Does he actually play multiple instruments on his albums (say like Dave Grohl did on the self-titled FF debut?) or is it the multi-instrument story just an easily digested narrative to make people think he is "so talented"...I claim ignorance as I only saw him at the Super Bowl, where the drum beat he was playing was so basic that someone could play it after their first lesson. To me that does not make them talented, it just makes them more marketable.

To me, the consistent point made by many PJ fans here is: you are already screwed if you're looking to who is headlining festivals to tell you whether rock is alive and well. Just because there are waves of when festival headliners might be more "legit" according to PJ fans, and this seasons is not one of those waves, does not mean there isn't amazing rock happening in clubs, at the lower lineup tiers of those festivals (the "undercard"), or on local scenes.

Rock has NEVER been best represented by what the most visible, popular, successful events deem "worthy". That was your first and main mistake in this conversation.

^^^I think you've focused a little too much on the title and not the content of my original post

I clearly don't think that rock is dead, or that rock will ever be dead. I go to tons of shows at smaller venues, and in the last year have seen great shows from the likes of Metz, Cloud Nothings, Ty Segall, etc...

The point was that if you look at the past histories of festivals such as Coachella, ACL, Lolla, and Bonnaroo, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone as commercial as Sam Smith, or as boring as Sam Smith, or as least qualified to close a festival as Sam Smith. I can think of very few artists who have been honoured with a headlining slot at a festival after only one album. Can you think of any others? I honestly cannot think of one.

This is the second weak year of festivals as a whole, and I'm interested to see if this signals a more permanent change (a reactive change to the vast increase in the number of new festivals all fighting for the same dollar), or is just a passing wave. Time will tell.

Actually, I very much was also responding to the content of your actual post. It's ok to agree to disagree. I just never understood (including in this conversation) what who was headlining music festivals had to do with whether rock was alive and well, which is indeed the whole point of your posts.

I used to be a huge fan of SXSW and went for many years from '91-'07. Before '07 and definitely since then, it has turned into a behemouth (sp?) of a festival that is no longer mainly about signing un-signed bands. It's huge, it's got it's share of reunion and "rare appearance" acts, and it's something totally different than it was.

And yet... what does that have to do with the health or status of rock and roll in general? Zippo, nada, nothing.

Revolutionary music (which includes way more than rock), or even just good old hard working awesome rock and roll, exists in so many formats, and what the market is doing, what the music business is highlighting... it usually reflects what's popular. Sometimes what's good is also popular, often not.

Then there's that pesky fact that what is "good" is a matter of opinion anyway...

tempo_n_groove

ACL headliners…

Beck, Eminem, Pearl Jam, Skrillex, Outkast, Calvin Harris and Lorde the second week. Pretty mixed group.

Oh and Sam Smith was there too but I missed out on seeing him. I really wanted to catch his act because I knew he was gonna blow up.

jervin007

Sam Smith isn't necessarily a bad artist. I would much rather hear him than other pop stars. Definitely not a headliner though. Just not up beat enough.

HesCalledDyer

Uptown Funk is actually by Mark Ronson, with Bruno on vox. Both excellent artists!