Gonna get worse and worse as more jobs are phased out by robots. How many jobs do ya think have been lost due to self-checkouts at grocery stores?
Someone needs to design, create, build and service the robots
As a Canadian I tend to put more weight in with free trade agreements and outsourcing of jobs. We're a resource rich country and we export the materials raw to foreign places, let them turn the materials into something, then buy it back. Foreign labour is so cheap that they can ship this stuff half way around the world (and back again) and it's still cheaper then making it domestically.
In regards to homeless people I've never understood it. I've had times in my life that things were tough and money was tight. I never made the decision to stop trying. I always adapted. Lost a job, ok I'll go work min wage until I find something better (there's always a crappy min wage job out there). I'm working min. wage and can't afford my rent. OK I'll find somewhere cheaper. A crappy basement suite, or find a roomate to share the bills. I honestly have no idea what is different in brain chemistry that causes some people to keep trying and others to give up. Thus I have no idea how to solve homelessness.
The point I'm trying to make is it's getting worse. Anyone who's lived in Seattle in the last 5-6 years knows of Nickelsville (named after former mayor Greg Nickels) a homeless tent camp on the westside that moved around when forced to leave. What I saw was an increasing amount of people that had never been out in the open before, it's spreading to more neighborhoods.
U.S. / Canada
Buffalo 1996 Barrie Ontario 1998
Saratoga Springs 2000 Toronto Ontario 2000
Albany 2003 Toronto Ontario 2003
Buffalo 2003 Toronto Ontario 2005
Toledo 2004 London Ontario 2005
Seattle 2009 Vancouver B.C. 2011
Seattle 2013
The joy of life comes from our encounters with new experiences, and hence there is no greater joy than to have an endlessly changing horizon, for each day to have a new and different sun.
Gonna get worse and worse as more jobs are phased out by robots. How many jobs do ya think have been lost due to self-checkouts at grocery stores?
Someone needs to design, create, build and service the robots
As a Canadian I tend to put more weight in with free trade agreements and outsourcing of jobs. We're a resource rich country and we export the materials raw to foreign places, let them turn the materials into something, then buy it back. Foreign labour is so cheap that they can ship this stuff half way around the world (and back again) and it's still cheaper then making it domestically.
In regards to homeless people I've never understood it. I've had times in my life that things were tough and money was tight. I never made the decision to stop trying. I always adapted. Lost a job, ok I'll go work min wage until I find something better (there's always a crappy min wage job out there). I'm working min. wage and can't afford my rent. OK I'll find somewhere cheaper. A crappy basement suite, or find a roomate to share the bills. I honestly have no idea what is different in brain chemistry that causes some people to keep trying and others to give up. Thus I have no idea how to solve homelessness.
Zod - while homelessness can be caused by a number of things, I would assume a trend would be homelessness as a byproduct of hopelessness - perhaps even a form of depression. You mentioned something critical though - a difference in brain chemistry. Your mental wiring is probably different than theirs. When my depression is at its worst, I can completely understand that level of hopelessness.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Gonna get worse and worse as more jobs are phased out by robots. How many jobs do ya think have been lost due to self-checkouts at grocery stores?
Someone needs to design, create, build and service the robots
As a Canadian I tend to put more weight in with free trade agreements and outsourcing of jobs. We're a resource rich country and we export the materials raw to foreign places, let them turn the materials into something, then buy it back. Foreign labour is so cheap that they can ship this stuff half way around the world (and back again) and it's still cheaper then making it domestically.
In regards to homeless people I've never understood it. I've had times in my life that things were tough and money was tight. I never made the decision to stop trying. I always adapted. Lost a job, ok I'll go work min wage until I find something better (there's always a crappy min wage job out there). I'm working min. wage and can't afford my rent. OK I'll find somewhere cheaper. A crappy basement suite, or find a roomate to share the bills. I honestly have no idea what is different in brain chemistry that causes some people to keep trying and others to give up. Thus I have no idea how to solve homelessness.
It's simply called lazy. No work ethic. Not caring if others have to pay your way.
I commend you for making those tough decisions to move somewhere else, find a better job (or taking a shittier job), finding a roommate. While others would find it much easier to collect food stamps, draw unemployment for years, or find subsidized housing instead of working to make themselves better. People like you are becoming the exception.
I know those programs aren't being taken advantage of by everyone and that they are there to help people get back on their feet.
I work with Homeless people for the past 10 years and I can tell you that its for many reason that people are homeless and not just because they are lazy or have no work ethic. Many homeless people have major mental health issues, many have addictions issues, many have major health issues. some can't find housing due to stigma, some were kicked out of their homes when they were younger and had very limited options.
how many people here have lived in a shelter? I have and its damm hard to find a job when you no address, no clean clothes to apply for jobs if you get a job interview, shelters are not great places, they can be violent places. I was lucky to get a job and go back to school. many people fall through the cracks and give up hope.
and I will be honest, even in the shelter i was lucky cause I was a white heterosexual male. I have clients now who are transgendered and you know what many landlord and employers will not give them a chance cause of their appearances?
If u can beg for change then u can say do you want fries with that or paper or plastic. #truth
Not necessarily.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
I sure seems like the number of homelessness just keeps going up. As a young adult, I lived in San Francisco from 1969 to 1973 and whenever I go into the city now I see much more homelessness than I did back then. Yet despite that, this report says the homeless rate is down:
That's rate though, not extent of numbers (If these are the correct terms). But I also always question statistics. Could be that the numbers are up but the rate is down due to combination of increase population and immigration or it could be a skewed survey.
In any case, in a country like the U.S. with our vast resources and plenty of money to blow on useless wars, the high cost of inefficient government (yes, unsung, I said it!) and (in my opinion) money wasted on rocket ships and space programs, there is far more homelessness in North America than there should be, for sure. It's shameful.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I wish I could remember the statistic, but a large percentage of homeless people in the US are veterans.
We saw a vets encampment just outside eugene. I am of the opinion that if you risk your life for your country in the theatre of war then the least the govt can do is house you.
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If u can beg for change then u can say do you want fries with that or paper or plastic. #truth
#truth?? Have I stumbled upon a preteens myface page? Try getting a job when you don't have an address, clean clothes, and the ability to shower, I bet you find it isn't so simple.
If u can beg for change then u can say do you want fries with that or paper or plastic. #truth
#truth?? Have I stumbled upon a preteens myface page? Try getting a job when you don't have an address, clean clothes, and the ability to shower, I bet you find it isn't so simple.
I'm not going to go as far as #truth, I honestly don't know what that means, but I will say that it isn't as hard to find one of those jobs if one would swallow his/her pride and accept that McDonald's, burger king, or sonic may be the only place you can work.
If u can beg for change then u can say do you want fries with that or paper or plastic. #truth
#truth?? Have I stumbled upon a preteens myface page? Try getting a job when you don't have an address, clean clothes, and the ability to shower, I bet you find it isn't so simple.
I'm not going to go as far as #truth, I honestly don't know what that means, but I will say that it isn't as hard to find one of those jobs if one would swallow his/her pride and accept that McDonald's, burger king, or sonic may be the only place you can work.
How many people do you honestly think choose homelessness over a fast food job? You reminded me of another employment obstacle (of course not insurmountable) which is online applications. You apply online, and wait for a phone call...to what phone?
If u can beg for change then u can say do you want fries with that or paper or plastic. #truth
#truth?? Have I stumbled upon a preteens myface page? Try getting a job when you don't have an address, clean clothes, and the ability to shower, I bet you find it isn't so simple.
I'm not going to go as far as #truth, I honestly don't know what that means, but I will say that it isn't as hard to find one of those jobs if one would swallow his/her pride and accept that McDonald's, burger king, or sonic may be the only place you can work.
How many people do you honestly think choose homelessness over a fast food job? You reminded me of another employment obstacle (of course not insurmountable) which is online applications. You apply online, and wait for a phone call...to what phone?
I understand your point and sentiment. I've also seen the cell phone sitting next guy sitting in the street with a boot in his lap in Chicago and Charlotte.
You're right, it is. Of course that's not what I said.
There's a large percentage of homeless people who are lazy.
Source?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
edited November 2014
I guess I must be a lazy ignorant motherfucker for having been semi-homeless having been reduced to living in my vehicle for over a year in the mid to late 90's (the details grow foggy in my intentional forgetfulness of those shitty and awful times which had nothing to do with being a "drug addict or boozer") and then living in a wretched dump in the the late 90's before crawling out of that hole and finding my way back. I'm comfortable and own my own modest home now but believe me, shit happens, even to those of us who are (and I am) privileged. Don't get too cocky BIBLEISTEN.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
You're right, it is. Of course that's not what I said.
There's a large percentage of homeless people who are lazy.
Source?
I completely understand that there is this big movement away from stereotyping the homeless or those living long term on government entitlements as lazy people. It helps us not view all homeless people as responsible for their predicament, however, we tend to focus on the outlier of the homeless community, the one who graduated from yale but somehow can't get on his feet. The outlier doesn't represent the majority though. Can I prove that many homeless people are lazy? No. I can't imagine how one would run and empirical study to prove that many are lazy, I've also never seen this disproven through data. So given the lack of data I resort to my own experiences and based on those many experiences, I come to this opinion.
You're right, it is. Of course that's not what I said.
There's a large percentage of homeless people who are lazy.
Source?
I completely understand that there is this big movement away from stereotyping the homeless or those living long term on government entitlements as lazy people. It helps us not view all homeless people as responsible for their predicament, however, we tend to focus on the outlier of the homeless community, the one who graduated from yale but somehow can't get on his feet. The outlier doesn't represent the majority though. Can I prove that many homeless people are lazy? No. I can't imagine how one would run and empirical study to prove that many are lazy, I've also never seen this disproven through data. So given the lack of data I resort to my own experiences and based on those many experiences, I come to this opinion.
So... Because you say there's no data to prove this one way or another, and because in your opinion there's no way to quantify this notion, you fall back on your own personal experience. So what are your own experience, are you a representative for homeless people? Do you talk to every one you meet? Do you work at a shelter? Do you roam around the country searching for conversations with homeless people?
I don't know what sample size would convince me that your opinion is worth broadcasting and proposing a generalization based on - but the Annual Homelessness Assessment Report to Congress suggests that in 2012, based on a single-night homelessness study, there were roughly 630,000 homeless people in the States. You would have to interview (and get honest response from) 1,000 people to secure a sample size equal to 1.6% of the homeless population in America then. Since I'm sure you've done this, and somehow you've managed to secure a sample which isn't skewed towards a specific cause of homelessness (based on geography, culture, etc.), you really believe this to be adequate to base such a large number of people's ethics upon?
There's certainly a big movement these days, but I think you're looking with too narrow a scope: it's not a movement against stereotyping the homeless - the movement is in favour of eliminating prejudice and ignorance.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
It would be my hypothesis that most homeless people do not have the support network (family and friends) that many other people have. When things get shitty for most... they can bunk in with mom and dad or their brother or sister until they get back on their feet. If there is nobody to call when times are tough... where does one go?
Once one is out on the streets... getting off them can be difficult for many of the reasons already offered.
There are other factors that contribute to homelessness such as mental illness and drug and alcohol abuse, but people living on the streets ultimately means there is nowhere else to go. People don't exactly choose to be homeless.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,757
You're right, it is. Of course that's not what I said.
There's a large percentage of homeless people who are lazy.
Source?
I completely understand that there is this big movement away from stereotyping the homeless or those living long term on government entitlements as lazy people. It helps us not view all homeless people as responsible for their predicament, however, we tend to focus on the outlier of the homeless community, the one who graduated from yale but somehow can't get on his feet. The outlier doesn't represent the majority though. Can I prove that many homeless people are lazy? No. I can't imagine how one would run and empirical study to prove that many are lazy, I've also never seen this disproven through data. So given the lack of data I resort to my own experiences and based on those many experiences, I come to this opinion.
Lazy or crazy? Come on, you'd have to be crazy to live like a homeless person. And I don't mean "crazy" in a derogatory sense. I mean, look, try living the way a homeless person does. It sucks. Lazy people who do not have serious mental disorders most often work the system to their advantage such that they are housed. I know people who have done this (acquaintances, mostly). They work the system and they live indoors. I'm not even sure I would call these people lazy because I'm not sure what's going on in their head. People who are not high functioning or who have a mental condition (such as vets with PTSD or any number of other conditions) often aren't capable of working the system- you have to be normal to high functioning to do so. Labeling homeless people is both biased, derogatory and ill-informed.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,863
Yeah, I'm sure none of those people are drug addicts or boozers. Some people created those issues for themselves.
I have yet to meet ANYONE who set out to become addicted or and alcoholic. True repeated actions led them to that but still, you seem to suggest some kind of intent.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Gonna get worse and worse as more jobs are phased out by robots. How many jobs do ya think have been lost due to self-checkouts at grocery stores?
Like 4 or so...
Yeah, you are probably about right,
So heres a real life scenario for you... at my local variety store they have 8 self serve checkouts. The store is open for 12 hours so theres 2 shifts equally 16 jobs. Now we all know how much companies love to employ casual staff so lets add another 8 to that job estimate and weve got 24 jobs lost to self serve registers. I guess we can make allowances for busy v quiet times during the trading day plus the fact that they'll have 1 real life human manning the only open non self serve register(and we all know there's only the 1 cause the store hopes people will get jack of waiting. in line to be served and give up and use the self serve) and the 4 jobs you 2 think are lost due to automation looks a little weak.
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Gonna get worse and worse as more jobs are phased out by robots. How many jobs do ya think have been lost due to self-checkouts at grocery stores?
Like 4 or so...
Yeah, you are probably about right,
So heres a real life scenario for you... at my local variety store they have 8 self serve checkouts. The store is open for 12 hours so theres 2 shifts equally 16 jobs. Now we all know how much companies love to employ casual staff so lets add another 8 to that job estimate and weve got 24 jobs lost to self serve registers. I guess we can make allowances for busy v quiet times during the trading day plus the fact that they'll have 1 real life human manning the only open non self serve register(and we all know there's only the 1 cause the store hopes people will get jack of waiting. in line to be served and give up and use the self serve) and the 4 jobs you 2 think are lost due to automation looks a little weak.
I'm not sure this argument has any place in this thread unless we can correlate a boost in homelessness with the beginning of the industrial era, at least fifty years ago. To say that the era of automation is just beginning now is just not true. The intelligence of the automation may be rapidly progressing, but that's it. Frankly it's a good thing in my books that those of us doing more than menial tasks should have to react to potentially becoming redundant the way those just following orders for a job have had to for a long time now. The smartest or most skilled people in the room have been permitted to continue their day to day lives unaffected for too long while the struggle has affected the poorest.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Gonna get worse and worse as more jobs are phased out by robots. How many jobs do ya think have been lost due to self-checkouts at grocery stores?
Like 4 or so...
Yeah, you are probably about right,
So heres a real life scenario for you... at my local variety store they have 8 self serve checkouts. The store is open for 12 hours so theres 2 shifts equally 16 jobs. Now we all know how much companies love to employ casual staff so lets add another 8 to that job estimate and weve got 24 jobs lost to self serve registers. I guess we can make allowances for busy v quiet times during the trading day plus the fact that they'll have 1 real life human manning the only open non self serve register(and we all know there's only the 1 cause the store hopes people will get jack of waiting. in line to be served and give up and use the self serve) and the 4 jobs you 2 think are lost due to automation looks a little weak.
Way too many biased estimates and assumptions to be considered a 'real life scenario'
Gonna get worse and worse as more jobs are phased out by robots. How many jobs do ya think have been lost due to self-checkouts at grocery stores?
Like 4 or so...
Yeah, you are probably about right,
So heres a real life scenario for you... at my local variety store they have 8 self serve checkouts. The store is open for 12 hours so theres 2 shifts equally 16 jobs. Now we all know how much companies love to employ casual staff so lets add another 8 to that job estimate and weve got 24 jobs lost to self serve registers. I guess we can make allowances for busy v quiet times during the trading day plus the fact that they'll have 1 real life human manning the only open non self serve register(and we all know there's only the 1 cause the store hopes people will get jack of waiting. in line to be served and give up and use the self serve) and the 4 jobs you 2 think are lost due to automation looks a little weak.
Way too many biased estimates and assumptions to be considered a 'real life scenario'
Tbh only the first couple of sentences and half the 3rd were real life
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Comments
As a Canadian I tend to put more weight in with free trade agreements and outsourcing of jobs. We're a resource rich country and we export the materials raw to foreign places, let them turn the materials into something, then buy it back. Foreign labour is so cheap that they can ship this stuff half way around the world (and back again) and it's still cheaper then making it domestically.
In regards to homeless people I've never understood it. I've had times in my life that things were tough and money was tight. I never made the decision to stop trying. I always adapted. Lost a job, ok I'll go work min wage until I find something better (there's always a crappy min wage job out there). I'm working min. wage and can't afford my rent. OK I'll find somewhere cheaper. A crappy basement suite, or find a roomate to share the bills. I honestly have no idea what is different in brain chemistry that causes some people to keep trying and others to give up. Thus I have no idea how to solve homelessness.
Anyone who's lived in Seattle in the last 5-6 years knows of Nickelsville (named after former mayor Greg Nickels) a homeless tent camp on the westside that moved around when forced to leave.
What I saw was an increasing amount of people that had never been out in the open before, it's spreading to more neighborhoods.
- Christopher McCandless
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I commend you for making those tough decisions to move somewhere else, find a better job (or taking a shittier job), finding a roommate. While others would find it much easier to collect food stamps, draw unemployment for years, or find subsidized housing instead of working to make themselves better. People like you are becoming the exception.
I know those programs aren't being taken advantage of by everyone and that they are there to help people get back on their feet.
how many people here have lived in a shelter? I have and its damm hard to find a job when you no address, no clean clothes to apply for jobs if you get a job interview, shelters are not great places, they can be violent places. I was lucky to get a job and go back to school. many people fall through the cracks and give up hope.
and I will be honest, even in the shelter i was lucky cause I was a white heterosexual male. I have clients now who are transgendered and you know what many landlord and employers will not give them a chance cause of their appearances?
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/current/2014-01-16/features/penn-led-report-finds-drop-us-homelessness-rate
That's rate though, not extent of numbers (If these are the correct terms). But I also always question statistics. Could be that the numbers are up but the rate is down due to combination of increase population and immigration or it could be a skewed survey.
In any case, in a country like the U.S. with our vast resources and plenty of money to blow on useless wars, the high cost of inefficient government (yes, unsung, I said it!) and (in my opinion) money wasted on rocket ships and space programs, there is far more homelessness in North America than there should be, for sure. It's shameful.
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take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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i just need to say
Try getting a job when you don't have an address, clean clothes, and the ability to shower, I bet you find it isn't so simple.
I don't know what sample size would convince me that your opinion is worth broadcasting and proposing a generalization based on - but the Annual Homelessness Assessment Report to Congress suggests that in 2012, based on a single-night homelessness study, there were roughly 630,000 homeless people in the States. You would have to interview (and get honest response from) 1,000 people to secure a sample size equal to 1.6% of the homeless population in America then. Since I'm sure you've done this, and somehow you've managed to secure a sample which isn't skewed towards a specific cause of homelessness (based on geography, culture, etc.), you really believe this to be adequate to base such a large number of people's ethics upon?
There's certainly a big movement these days, but I think you're looking with too narrow a scope: it's not a movement against stereotyping the homeless - the movement is in favour of eliminating prejudice and ignorance.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Once one is out on the streets... getting off them can be difficult for many of the reasons already offered.
There are other factors that contribute to homelessness such as mental illness and drug and alcohol abuse, but people living on the streets ultimately means there is nowhere else to go. People don't exactly choose to be homeless.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say