Now back to Israel as usual

catefrances

gimmesometruth27 said:

benjs said:

And, sadly, from The Guardian... "Israel to deport Eritrean and Sudanese asylum seekers to third countries". http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/31/israel-to-deport-eritrean-and-sudanese-asylum-seekers-to-third-countries

To me, this is a betrayal of the ideals that Israel claimed to stand for at its inception: of offering safety and secure refuge to those the world historically provided injustices to. Or, at least, that was how they sold the necessity of Israel to the world.

there is a lot of that going around these days.

see the outright hatred of immigrants in the US. the way certain politicians and certain groups talk about them reminds me of something out of gangs of new york.

Australia houses their asylum seekers on nauru.

JohnnieBeBlue

benjs said:

I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).

As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.

I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.

benjs said:

As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.

I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:

“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”

And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.

badbrains

JohnnieBeBlue said:

benjs said:

I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).

As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.

I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.

benjs said:

As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.

I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:

“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”

And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.

Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.

Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.

JohnnieBeBlue

badbrains said:

Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.

Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.

You are right, Assad isn't targeting Christians specifically. They are actually supporting him because he is better than the alternative (ISIS) who are actively murdering Christians. You also conveniently completely ignored the rest of my comment in order to pick on this one point. No mention of the Coptic Christians in Egypt, huh?

Yes, go ahead and Google how Christians are treated. You will find assholes being assholes. This isn't news. Many of these videos are also shot in ultra-hasidic neighborhoods were all outsiders are treated as such (which I personally think is terrible and do not condone.) Many of these neighborhoods were well established in the 19th century or earlier and view even modern Israelis as unwelcome. Why don't you actually ask Christians who have been to Israel if they felt welcome? Or if they had access to their holy sites. Have you ever been to Israel or is your opinion formulated via YouTube and eletricintifada.com? How about we go and ask all Christians in Israel if they would rather live in Israel or any other country in the entire Middle East, Asia, or Africa? What do you think they would say?

BS44325

badbrains said:

JohnnieBeBlue said:

benjs said:

I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).

As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.

I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.

benjs said:

As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.

I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:

“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”

And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.

Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.

Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.

I googled it and came across this video

http://youtu.be/VoB_MMcj0po

Nothing happened

BS44325

ISIS are now attacking Palestinians in their refugee camps.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com//news/world/israel-middle-east/isis-fighters-clash-with-palestinians-in-refugee-camp-in-syrias-capital-as-jordan-closes-its-border

This is more evidence of islamic radicals trying to take full control of the Palestinian liberation movement.

badbrains

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

JohnnieBeBlue said:

benjs said:

I'll be sure to let the two people in my family alone who had told me that in their eyes Jesus was a prophet that they are in fact either Christians, or Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs. Amazing that they had it wrong all these years. They'll be at our passover seder on Friday night, so I'll try to ask them about it. Also, you speak like someone who knows a fair amount about Judaism, so surely you can recognize that a Messianic Jew would see Jesus as a messiah, and not a prophet like we're discussing here (Judaism recognizing there only being one messiah, but also having plenty of prophets or Nevi'im within the religion).

As for your comment about the 'second coming' - I don't believe I referenced the second coming once. As I said before, being a prophet would negate being a messiah, hence the coming of the messiah would still be the first time 'round.

I would say that calling them Jews with a bastardized set of beliefs would be an accurate statement, even if it doesn't sound very nice. Historically, Jews have not viewed Jesus as either a prophet or a messiah. Go back through the Talmud, Maimonides, Nachmanides, etc. There really isn't any gray area here. The only real debate which has taken place just in the past 200 or so years is whether he was an observant Jew whose views and teachings were taken out of context, or if he was a full heretic by claiming to be a corporal manifestation of G-d, which by the way is specifically mentioned as impossible and heretical in several places in the Old Testament. But you are correct, this is a diversion of the main point of this discussion.

benjs said:

As far as your access to holy sites comment, I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd say it's pretty irrefutable that people are given more religious liberties in the region than ever before. On the other hand, should we accept the racial status quo in America because black people are no longer enslaved as they once were? I don't think it's right to compare current treatment with historical treatment: better to compare current treatment in one location with current treatment in another; otherwise it's inviting complacency, and saying no to the potential for truly equitable treatment.

I see your point that there is always room for improvement, but that's true in virtually all situations. Of course Israel isn't perfect. But the level of criticism leveled at the Jewish State is far out of proportion. Again, I recognize the flaws in this argument- of course Israel and everyone else should always strive to be better and be fair and open to everyone. It's just difficult to take these complaints seriously when those lodging the complaints are silent regarding far worse offenses just next door. Assad as well as the Egyptian government are slaughtering Christians. Jews are not allowed to enter many Middle East countries, let alone practice freely. Contrast this to famed Israeli General Moshe Dayan and his remarks after Israel captured the Temple Mount from Jordan in 1967:

“We have returned to the holiest of our places, never to be parted from them again….We did not come to conquer the sacred sites of others or to restrict their religious rights, but rather to ensure the integrity of the city and to live in it with others in fraternity.”

And that is exactly what they did. Also in 1967, after defeating the Jordanians in Hebron, the Mufti of Hebron who who responsible for the holy site of the Grave of the Patriarchs came to Dayan and asked for 24 hours to clear the site. What did Dayan tell him? No, we don't want you to leave. Try to imagine this occurring in a Muslim country nowadays or in a Christian nation during the crusades. Like I said, Israel is far from perfect, but criticizing them for not being open to all religions borders on the absurd.

Slaughtering Christians? Assad? Damn bro, talk about falsifying info. Jesus Christ, no pun intended. If Assad was "slaughtering" Christians like you claim, there's NO FUCKEN way America would sit idle and u know it. Remember what good old Georgie pourgie said "crusade". And again, you can't compare the 2. You're stretching and it isn't working.

Edit-again, I encourage all you Christians who stand with Israel to google on youtube how Christians are treated in Israel. Not hard to do.

I googled it and came across this video

http://youtu.be/VoB_MMcj0po

Nothing happened

That's all you found? Hahaha, what a joke.

rssesq

#beatsbydreadel LMAO

i_lov_it

benjs said:

And, sadly, from The Guardian... "Israel to deport Eritrean and Sudanese asylum seekers to third countries". http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/31/israel-to-deport-eritrean-and-sudanese-asylum-seekers-to-third-countries

To me, this is a betrayal of the ideals that Israel claimed to stand for at its inception: of offering safety and secure refuge to those the world historically provided injustices to. Or, at least, that was how they sold the necessity of Israel to the world.

So basically your saying Israel are contradicting themselves or Hypocritical maybe which is interesting.

JC29856

http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/259244/of-the-earth-wrigley-ii#latest

PJ_Soul

JC29856 said:

http://community.pearljam.com/discussion/259244/of-the-earth-wrigley-ii#latest

Hmmm

JC29856

"..how you like your living hell?"

even flow - question mark

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/23/celtic-fans-warned-not-to-fly-palestinian-flags-at-match-in-israel

rssesq

lmao. I love the Scots. Surprised to see the guardian reporting this.

JC29856

Israel and the United States are putting the finishing touches on an agreement that will cement our alliance for years to come. The latest Memorandum of Understanding (MoU), set to go into effect in 2018, will provide Israel with about $3.9 billion a year in military aid for 10 years. The real value of this agreement, however, isn’t in the dollar amount, but in the defense technology that Israel will receive and the depth of the security cooperation between the two countries.

rssesq

memo re: shakedown of American taxpayers understanding

I just got off of I-95. OUR roads are crumbling. When are the Israeli taxpayers gonna fund the reconstruction of OUR highway system.
when hell freezes ova

PJ_Soul

rssesq said:

memo re: shakedown of American taxpayers understanding

I just got off of I-95. OUR roads are crumbling. When are the Israeli taxpayers gonna fund the reconstruction of OUR highway system.
when hell freezes ova

Israel wouldn't (supoosedly) benefit from doing so obviously. You want Israel.tonreciprocate just for the hell of it, like schoolyard tradesies? The US (supposedly) does benefit from doing it for them. I would argue that maintaining this relationship will cost much MUCH more than the perceived benefits in the long run, both in money and lives.

JC29856

http://www.ochaopt.org/content/gaza-two-years-2014-hostilities-august-2016

rssesq

why isn't it yet illegal to criticize Israel? lol

gimmesometruth27

JC29856 said:

Israel and the United States are putting the finishing touches on an agreement that will cement our alliance for years to come. The latest Memorandum of Understanding (MoU), set to go into effect in 2018, will provide Israel with about $3.9 billion a year in military aid for 10 years. The real value of this agreement, however, isn’t in the dollar amount, but in the defense technology that Israel will receive and the depth of the security cooperation between the two countries.

shit, $3.9 billion in the year 2028 will be a bargain for us. we have been giving them more and more every year. i guarantee we end up paying close to 6 billion in the year 2028.