Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths

yosi

Am I missing something? Did I ever say anything about killing anyone. Pretty sure I didn't, so I'm totally confused about what you're reacting to. Also not sure what Israel has to do with this. Just seems like you're deflecting.

As for faults with my own religion, let's see...insofar as there are Jews that believe the following based on their understanding of Judaism, my biggest issues right now are with any notion that women or gays should be unequal, that Jews are in some way inherently better than other people, and that religion should trump secular law.

yosi

And you may want to work on your tone. It's not all that friendly.

badbrains

yosi said:

And you may want to work on your tone. It's not all that friendly.

You come on here spreading MORE fear, as if there ISNT enough people doing that. And then you go to tell me to work on my tone? Really? What are you gonna do, tell on me? Beat me up? Please. Have a good night yosi. Is that a better tone for you? Smh

yosi

I didn't realize I was spreading fear. Not sure how I'm doing that. Maybe if you're a woman in Saudi Arabia reading this and you somehow weren't aware of how your country treats women you might be frightened. But really, it seems like your position is that any critical discussion of Islam is out of bounds. That doesn't make any sense to me.

And I really don't understand why you insist on being so hostile. I don't know that I've said anything to deserve it.

benjs

badbrains, take a deep breath, and make sure to keep your mind and eyes open to what Yosi just wrote - it was actually very reasonable and spoken from a place of statistical and logical analysis. For the record, I know your response is from a place of frustration, not hostility, and I'm as guilty as anyone of doing that.

His verifiable logic is as follows: Muslim states have a history of illiberalism statistically, often predicated upon Islamic notions. Muslim extremists have a history of illiberalism statistically, often predicated upon Islamic notions (which are often expressed radically, disseminated hastily, and at others' expense, with added violence). We should check for causality relationships. In other words: we should zoom out, explore the avenue that the religion itself will inherently lead to such extremist outbursts. I personally think this will prove to be false, but we can't pick and choose what avenues we explore (or, more significantly, the ones we opt out of exploring). If someone presents one such avenue that's logically deductible, it needs to be observed to better understand the story of "what's going on": otherwise, it introduces bias by omission of key facts.

I personally think the better question is, when most or all religions have inherently violent roots, what's the common theme amongst the extremists of a sect which choose to act out violently and inhumanely? Once the catalyst to the violence can be identified (which I would assume has to do with the square-pegs-in-round-holes nature of putting nation states in a predominantly sectarian society such as the middle east, courtesy of European and American interventionism/expansionism/capitalism), then it can be dealt with. Only then will that violence (which I truly believe is a byproduct - not the primary exertion of will) begin to dissipate. You don't have to use religion either to study this - nationalism works just as well, and the theme (interventionism/expansionism) might be a byproduct of something else too - I'm just not sure!

Also, Yosi just more or less just told you that the two of you are speaking up in favour of the same end products in Israel and the Palestinian regions: equality based on faith, equal rights for all non-invasive personal beliefs (i.e. no harm to others by doing X), and the abolishment of moral superiority by religion.

We always did feel the same, we just saw it from a different point of view.

mickeyrat

yosi said:

The focus on IS seems far too narrow to me. They're simply the nuttiest of the nutty. It does seem to me that the Muslim world (by which I mean those countries that are majority Muslim) suffers from widespread illiberalism, which in the most extreme cases manifests itself in groups like IS, but more routinely takes the form of repression of women, gays, and religious and ethnic minorities, brutal penal laws, a violent defensiveness around matters of faith (e.g., the cartoon incident, Rushdie), etc. Not every country is necessarily afflicted, and those that are, are not always afflicted in the same way. And I fully acknowledge that not all of this is due to the influence of Islamic ideas. Still, I don't think it's unfair to question how Islamic doctrines/teachings contribute to these maladies. And I also think that when viewed through this wider lens it becomes a bit more problematic to assert that the percentage of Muslims in the world that we're talking about is vanishingly small. When you start talking about how many Muslims subscribe to really troubling beliefs about how to treat women, gays, religion, etc., and do so explicitly based on what they understand to be the teachings of Islam, I think we're talking about a pretty significant percentage of the Muslim world.

Interesting read here.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Sex_and_Sexuality/Homosexuality.shtml

badbrains

mickeyrat said:

yosi said:

The focus on IS seems far too narrow to me. They're simply the nuttiest of the nutty. It does seem to me that the Muslim world (by which I mean those countries that are majority Muslim) suffers from widespread illiberalism, which in the most extreme cases manifests itself in groups like IS, but more routinely takes the form of repression of women, gays, and religious and ethnic minorities, brutal penal laws, a violent defensiveness around matters of faith (e.g., the cartoon incident, Rushdie), etc. Not every country is necessarily afflicted, and those that are, are not always afflicted in the same way. And I fully acknowledge that not all of this is due to the influence of Islamic ideas. Still, I don't think it's unfair to question how Islamic doctrines/teachings contribute to these maladies. And I also think that when viewed through this wider lens it becomes a bit more problematic to assert that the percentage of Muslims in the world that we're talking about is vanishingly small. When you start talking about how many Muslims subscribe to really troubling beliefs about how to treat women, gays, religion, etc., and do so explicitly based on what they understand to be the teachings of Islam, I think we're talking about a pretty significant percentage of the Muslim world.

Interesting read here.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/life/Sex_and_Sexuality/Homosexuality.shtml

Look at that, not only does Islam and Christianity have a problem with homosexuality, Judaism does to. An abomination in Judaism? Who would've thought.

I'm angry at yosi because when Israel was destroying the SHIT out of gaza, he was no where to be seen for almost 2 months. Then with all the fire dying down with Israel, he comes back and posts on a thread that basically people had their say in. I know what you're doing yosi and so do others.

Edit-I'm ALL for liberating the house of saud, we should liberate them as soon as we're done liberating Palestine.

badbrains

yosi said:

I didn't realize I was spreading fear. Not sure how I'm doing that. Maybe if you're a woman in Saudi Arabia reading this and you somehow weren't aware of how your country treats women you might be frightened. But really, it seems like your position is that any critical discussion of Islam is out of bounds. That doesn't make any sense to me.

And I really don't understand why you insist on being so hostile. I don't know that I've said anything to deserve it.

Oh so the way women are treated in Saudi Arabia like shit because of Islam? Islam teaches you to treat women like shit? We're basing the treatment of women in Islam on the way Saudi Arabia treats them? Really? So that's a Muslim thing? Shit, then I guess I'm NOT Muslim and ALL the Muslims I know are fake Muslims cuz we treat women with RESPECT. Damn, I've been following my religion WRONG all these years. Smh

Drowned Out

Staceb10 said:

So where are these 1.6 billion peaceful muslims? Why aren't they standing up to these tyrants that are destroying their religion? I would think that they would be able to control the 30-40k radicals in ISIS. I in no way think that the majority of muslims are radical and terrorists but it isn't a "myth". that Muslims are the ones responsible for most of the terror attacks over the last 2 decades. They are the ones blowing people up, cutting their heads off on camera for people to watch, killing children and let's hope you aren't a muslim female who is raped and then killed for your "sin" of shaming the family.

I don't care if there is 1 radical Islamist or 3 million. Something has to be done about this "myth" of violence happening right now.

Yes, something has to be done. What is that, stace? Bomb bomb bomb, right?
Were you not a supporter of the war in Iraq? How did that work out? You and a few others from those days disappeared from the train for years after the war lost public favour....I wish the board's archives went back that far...

Since when is the onus on peace activists to stop the actions of extremists? This makes no sense. 'Radicalized' people are not going to listen to a peacenik. Even so, there have been many public calls for an end to the violence by muslim leaders. There have been muslim-led protests against the IS all over the world. These stories (like any protest) get little media play. And in the end, what good does it do? Not to mention the fact that comments like yours contribute to an atmosphere of hate that I would guess makes muslims more insular, instead of outspoken. These attacks are almost always politically motivated reaction to foreign policy.
I'm guessing you either didn't watch the video in the OP, because your post falls into the exact trap Rezlan describes. Ascribing regional issues to a worldwide religion. Where are your comments on the 'myth' of the war on terror, and the 20 years of state terror imposed on multiple middle-east countries, by the West?

badbrains

Drowned Out said:

Staceb10 said:

So where are these 1.6 billion peaceful muslims? Why aren't they standing up to these tyrants that are destroying their religion? I would think that they would be able to control the 30-40k radicals in ISIS. I in no way think that the majority of muslims are radical and terrorists but it isn't a "myth". that Muslims are the ones responsible for most of the terror attacks over the last 2 decades. They are the ones blowing people up, cutting their heads off on camera for people to watch, killing children and let's hope you aren't a muslim female who is raped and then killed for your "sin" of shaming the family.

I don't care if there is 1 radical Islamist or 3 million. Something has to be done about this "myth" of violence happening right now.

Yes, something has to be done. What is that, stace? Bomb bomb bomb, right?
Were you not a supporter of the war in Iraq? How did that work out? You and a few others from those days disappeared from the train for years after the war lost public favour....I wish the board's archives went back that far...

Since when is the onus on peace activists to stop the actions of extremists? This makes no sense. 'Radicalized' people are not going to listen to a peacenik. Even so, there have been many public calls for an end to the violence by muslim leaders. There have been muslim-led protests against the IS all over the world. These stories (like any protest) get little media play. And in the end, what good does it do? Not to mention the fact that comments like yours contribute to an atmosphere of hate that I would guess makes muslims more insular, instead of outspoken. These attacks are almost always politically motivated reaction to foreign policy.
I'm guessing you either didn't watch the video in the OP, because your post falls into the exact trap Rezlan describes. Ascribing regional issues to a worldwide religion. Where are your comments on the 'myth' of the war on terror, and the 20 years of state terror imposed on multiple middle-east countries, by the West?

You're being to rational drowned out. People don't like critical thinkers like you.

yosi

BB, I think I've made it very clear that I don't think that any religion can be easily essentialized, which is why I try to talk about how people understand the demands of their religion rather than what a religion demands. I don't think that the way Saudi Arabia treats women is indicative of how "Islam" demands that women be treated. I do think that Saudi Arabia is not so much of an outlier when you look at the broader Muslim world. Basically, my point is not that Islam is bad, but that there is a worrying amount of bad interpretations of Islam floating around in the world, and that the number of people that subscribe to some variation of those interpretations is not insignificant.

As for my absence over the summer, as I've already said on another thread, you can thank the bar exam for that, as well as my own lack of desire to engage in pointless circular arguments with people too angry to have a rational discussion. I have no idea what you think I'm "doing," (since I'm not "doing" anything other than posting when the mood hits me), but I have to say that I find your tone/implication to be more than a little paranoid/conspiratorial, and not at all welcoming.

badbrains

Paranoid? Lol. No yosi, I just know what you're doing. And guess what, so do a lot of people. Lucky you the bar exam landed right during the mass murder and systematic genocide your Israeli leaders enjoyed in gaza. Talk about luck. But maybe I'm just being paranoid?

benjs

badbrains said:

Paranoid? Lol. No yosi, I just know what you're doing. And guess what, so do a lot of people. Lucky you the bar exam landed right during the mass murder and systematic genocide your Israeli leaders enjoyed in gaza. Talk about luck. But maybe I'm just being paranoid?

Again, please try and look at what Yosi wrote earlier objectively. Yosi is NOT calling for drawing conclusions - he is calling for exploring avenues. That is a HUGE difference, and I whole-heartedly agree with him in exploring avenues. Believe me badbrains, if I refused to explore alternative and largely inconvenient maybe-truths, I wouldn't feel the way that I do about the injustices which have and continue to occur to Palestinians (and to Muslims at large).

What you watch on the news - THAT is Islamophobia. They have short snippets depicting extremism, one-directional communication, zero statistical analysis, conclusions drawn on fringe cases. What Yosi did here - that was due analytical process. Calling for an INVESTIGATION, on a medium with bi-directional communication between someone with an opinion, and the masses which consume it (i.e. us).

Seriously, you know we're playing for the same team here, but this is one discussion where we might have to disagree. What Yosi said leaves me largely unchanged about what the BEST avenues to explore are - I just think it's critical to analyze everything. Do I think at the end of the day it could be a waste of time? Definitely. Do I think it should be a vetoed topic on this bidirectional medium? Nope. For what it's worth, Yosi condemned Jewish and Christian sentiments on the last page as well, and on another note, If you think he wants peace and justice any less than you, it's worth revisiting his posts over the last little while. Your allegiances may lay on different sides of a border, but I believe your goals (peace, justice, coexistence) are mirrored: you just have different approaches on how to get there.