Reza Aslan On Muslim violence myths

badbrains

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Keep watching faux

brianlux

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

badbrains

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Save yourself the hassle brian, people that think like this are so far gone, it's not even worth it. 1.5 billion Muslims and the mass are radical? Wow, can I even throw in a HALTS MAUL to that thinking?

Idris

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

I dont quite understand your post.

Anyway, On the subject of Islam.

Islam IS a dangerous threat to many people/systems in this world, I can understand why so many people are against it.

Islam is dangerous to the way many of us live our lives, I get why people 'fear' the religion and its followers.

brianlux

Idris said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

I dont quite understand your post.

Anyway, On the subject of Islam.

Islam IS a dangerous threat to many people/systems in this world, I can understand why so many people are against it.

Islam is dangerous to the way (many) of us live our lives, I get why people 'fear' the religion and its followers.

This seems rather out of character for you to say, Idris. Can you elaborate?

benjs

brianlux, just a guess about what Idris meant is a simple analysis of Western psychology: more of the same is easy and yields predictable results, but change brings about uncertainty, and the fear that comes with it. A big change would be the introduction of a majority demographic whose concepts of core values and beliefs are different than the current majority. Whether these differences are real (up for discussion) or perceived (pretty irrefutable), I agree that the fear is understandable. This fear was manifested during America's war against communism (changes in power distribution), and the civil war which brought a fear of minority retribution/revenge (aka change in power dynamics). I would guess there are many other examples too!

brianlux

Could be, benjs. Hoping to hear more from the ever astute and well spoken Idris. :-)

yosi

This whole debate (the public one, not the one here) is stupid. Both sides are right. Clearly it is absurd to equate ISIS with all Muslims, or to assert that their extreme form of Islam defines the faith as a whole. It is equally absurd (and more infuriating to me, and I would guess Maher as well, because it comes from my own side of the political spectrum) to say that Islam is "a religion of peace," or that ISIS is somehow not really Islamic, as if Islam (or any religion) can be so easily and conveniently essentialized, or separated from the actions taken by its adherents in its name. It's like saying Catholicism is a "religion of peace" and the Inquisition was somehow not really Catholic. It's very simple part-to-whole logic: ISIS is Islamic, but Islam is not necessarily ISIS (all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples).

lukin2006

I like what he has to say ... will never change my opinion that religion is pure bullshit.

As far as I'm concerned the west should stay the fuck away from the middle east and let them solve their own problems. Israel is one country that still confuses me. Why were they given that particular piece of land after WW2? Should they not have been given a piece of Germany or Italy?

badbrains

yosi said:

This whole debate (the public one, not the one here) is stupid. Both sides are right. Clearly it is absurd to equate ISIS with all Muslims, or to assert that their extreme form of Islam defines the faith as a whole. It is equally absurd (and more infuriating to me, and I would guess Maher as well, because it comes from my own side of the political spectrum) to say that Islam is "a religion of peace," or that ISIS is somehow not really Islamic, as if Islam (or any religion) can be so easily and conveniently essentialized, or separated from the actions taken by its adherents in its name. It's like saying Catholicism is a "religion of peace" and the Inquisition was somehow not really Catholic. It's very simple part-to-whole logic: ISIS is Islamic, but Islam is not necessarily ISIS (all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples).

So in theory, kind of like the IDF is Israeli yet not Jewish. And Jews are no

lukin2006 said:

I like what he has to say ... will never change my opinion that religion is pure bullshit.

As far as I'm concerned the west should stay the fuck away from the middle east and let them solve their own problems. Israel is one country that still confuses me. Why were they given that particular piece of land after WW2? Should they not have been given a piece of Germany or Italy?

Makes you wonder how long they've been planning shit ey? I agree, why not Germany or Italy? Why some land in the desert? Hmmm, things that make you go "hmmmmm."

benjs

badbrains said:

yosi said:

This whole debate (the public one, not the one here) is stupid. Both sides are right. Clearly it is absurd to equate ISIS with all Muslims, or to assert that their extreme form of Islam defines the faith as a whole. It is equally absurd (and more infuriating to me, and I would guess Maher as well, because it comes from my own side of the political spectrum) to say that Islam is "a religion of peace," or that ISIS is somehow not really Islamic, as if Islam (or any religion) can be so easily and conveniently essentialized, or separated from the actions taken by its adherents in its name. It's like saying Catholicism is a "religion of peace" and the Inquisition was somehow not really Catholic. It's very simple part-to-whole logic: ISIS is Islamic, but Islam is not necessarily ISIS (all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples).

So in theory, kind of like the IDF is Israeli yet not Jewish. And Jews are no

lukin2006 said:

I like what he has to say ... will never change my opinion that religion is pure bullshit.

As far as I'm concerned the west should stay the fuck away from the middle east and let them solve their own problems. Israel is one country that still confuses me. Why were they given that particular piece of land after WW2? Should they not have been given a piece of Germany or Italy?

Makes you wonder how long they've been planning shit ey? I agree, why not Germany or Italy? Why some land in the desert? Hmmm, things that make you go "hmmmmm."

With regards to Yosi's statement, I do actually agree that calling a religion one of "peace" (independent of whether it's Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, whatever) is fairly naive. At the very least, the Abrahamic religions certainly shouldn't be called religions of peace based on their histories, and the bloodiness of the stories depicted in their religious texts. Rather, I'd call them religions with vague documents subject to numerous interpretations. Maher has a tendency to look at things from incredibly binary perspectives, and this is where I hold issue: his logic seems to be that ISIS = part of Islam, ISIS = bad, therefore Islam = bad. That's flawed logic, and it poisons the naive masses that will listen to it and buy into convenient fallacies. Maher also puts the onus on the "moderates" to speak up against extremism. Really? Since when is the onus put on the pacifist and largely inactive, happy-go-lucky folks from any sect to condemn its radical presence? I truly believe that my generation will be the one that witnesses the conversion from soft-spoken pacifists to globally aware, active and action-seeking pacifists, but that's currently not a widespread trend, so it's hardly fair to condemn that group within the religion of Islam.

As far as why Israel is located where it is - a few things: for one, the notion of Zionism began in the late 1800s - the location was NOT determined at the conclusion of WWII, but the Zionist movement in the Middle East had significant momentum at that point (just look at the Jewish population growth rate within the British Mandate of Palestine era for proof of this). Next, the Balfour Declaration was the closest thing to written consent Jews had ever obtained for the right to self-determination, which was geographically tied to a to-be-defined subset of the British Mandate of Palestine. For another thing, if the location for a Jewish state HAD been determined at the conclusion of WWII, I wouldn't expect Jews to be clamouring to be neighbours with groups responsible for mass murders of their people. I frankly wouldn't ask this of any sect, and wanting to leave these horrors would be entirely understandable: it's why so many Cambodians left Cambodia after the Khmer Rouge regime, for example. Had the Jewish state existed within Italy or Germany, I also would not expect harmonious coexistence between Italian or Germans (who would have likely become newly-displaced persons) and newly introduced Israelis. This contrasts to the Middle East: I was under the impression that historically, prior to the Zionist movement, there was a relatively harmonious coexistence between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East (meaning there was a basis for attempting to bring that coexistence back).

Staceb10

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

badbrains

Staceb10 said:

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

Saddam had over 1,000,000 soldiers and we finished them in 1 WEEK. Ah, next argument?

Staceb10

badbrains said:

Staceb10 said:

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

Saddam had over 1,000,000 soldiers and we finished them in 1 WEEK. Ah, next argument?

How does that relate to topic of the "myth of muslim violence"? I didn't realize we were disussing how easy it would be to kill all of them. It isn't a myth when we're watching people being beheaded on a regular basis for not being Muslim.

badbrains

Staceb10 said:

badbrains said:

Staceb10 said:

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

Saddam had over 1,000,000 soldiers and we finished them in 1 WEEK. Ah, next argument?

How does that relate to topic of the "myth of muslim violence"? I didn't realize we were disussing how easy it would be to kill all of them. It isn't a myth when we're watching people being beheaded on a regular basis for not being Muslim.

You mean FOR BEING Muslim. Remember, IS has beheaded MORE Muslims then anyone else. Your argument is soft.

benjs

Staceb10 said:

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

Let's be absurdly conservative and say there are 60,000 people in ISIS, and look only at the Muslim population in the Middle East (numbers from the 2010 Pew Research Center Report) which is 321,869,000.
So, 60,000/321,869,000 = 0.01% of the Middle East's Muslim population. This neglects population growth between 2010 and now. If you opt for the world total: 60,000/1,619,314,000 = an astonishingly low 0.004% of the world's Muslim population affiliated with extremism.

I personally like to base my decisions on percentages. Statistics tell much better stories, and to say '30,000 Muslims' is only part of the picture: '0.01% of the Muslim population' is the other part.

You could probably find at LEAST 30,000 of any sect with disturbing and extreme thoughts they wish to act upon.

badbrains

benjs said:

Staceb10 said:

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

Let's be absurdly conservative and say there are 60,000 people in ISIS, and look only at the Muslim population in the Middle East (numbers from the 2010 Pew Research Center Report) which is 321,869,000.
So, 60,000/321,869,000 = 0.01% of the Middle East's Muslim population. This neglects population growth between 2010 and now. If you opt for the world total: 60,000/1,619,314,000 = an astonishingly low 0.004% of the world's Muslim population affiliated with extremism.

I personally like to base my decisions on percentages. Statistics tell much better stories, and to say '30,000 Muslims' is only part of the picture: '0.01% of the Muslim population' is the other part.

You could probably find at LEAST 30,000 of any sect with disturbing and extreme thoughts they wish to act upon.

Ben, you will be at the VIP party at my house! Putting u on the list.

mickeyrat

Staceb10 said:

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

are we able to separate the truly religious extremists from the the purely political?

Given your estimates quoted above , I would est 100K are extremist? Fair? Of 1 point 3-6 BILLION people. What is the percentage then? .001?

badbrains

mickeyrat said:

Staceb10 said:

brianlux said:

Staceb10 said:

Myth of Muslim violence? Not a myth when the masses embrace it. I used to think radical Islam was minority but not anymore.

Masses? As in the majority? Where do you get this information? I don't think even Faux News goes that far. Maybe some of the far right pundits but they're just entertainers. Links? References? (Sorry, you're not going to find any that are worth a thought, damn or straw.)

Why do liberals act like conservatives only watch Fox News? That isn't the case and you guys should really start using a better argument. Masses wasn't a literal comment but when there are over 30k muslims in ISIS.. that's not counting the Al Qaeda faction of terrorists.. or Hamas.. then that is more than just a few Islamic radicals. I do understand that Muslims aren't inherently violent but people can't keep acting like this is some small group of crazy people.

are we able to separate the truly religious extremists from the the purely political?

Given your estimates quoted above , I would est 100K are extremist? Fair? Of 1. 3-6 BILLION people. What is the percentage then? .001?

People don't like facts Mickey!

Staceb10

So where are these 1.6 billion peaceful muslims? Why aren't they standing up to these tyrants that are destroying their religion? I would think that they would be able to control the 30-40k radicals in ISIS. I in no way think that the majority of muslims are radical and terrorists but it isn't a "myth". that Muslims are the ones responsible for most of the terror attacks over the last 2 decades. They are the ones blowing people up, cutting their heads off on camera for people to watch, killing children and let's hope you aren't a muslim female who is raped and then killed for your "sin" of shaming the family.

I don't care if there is 1 radical Islamist or 3 million. Something has to be done about this "myth" of violence happening right now.