Anyone in Tennessee?

vant0037

callen said:

3. Okay so you contradicted yourself…its not that you want a fair trail, you just don’t want the perp to walk due to fking up. Prosecutors are forced by law to be mindful not because they are good guys and want to give a fair trial. Of course there are good prosecutors and there are bad..just like anywhere….the defendant can’t take the chance.
Prosecutors are judged by number of convictions and it’s their job. Spouting off???? It’s a PJ message board. Don’t be so fragile, not a good trait being in your profession.

What difference does it make what the impetus for a fair trial is so long as the defendant'a rights are respected? You've suggested that prosecutors and courts are only interested in convictions and will trample the rights of a defendant to get them. I've given you the best and most honest reason why that simply isn't the case: sheer self interest. If courts ensure that defendants rights are scrupulously respected but only because they don't want verdicts/judgments/plea agreements/aka "work" to be overturned, so what?

vant0037

unsung said:

While I agree that the side of the road is not the place to argue over certain things I find that if one doesn't stand up for their rights when they are right the police will continue to be authoritative.

Another scenario...I'm walking my dog, a cop stops me to ask me for my ID. I refuse to comply. I'm not doing anything wrong. Besides I'm not driving, why should I carry my drivers license.

I won't argue with that. Just know that cops aren't usually interested in having a discussion right then and there (which of course goes to the heart of your point). Just be safe is all I'm saying - there's a venue to challenge bad cop behavior and it's not the roads.

callen

Y

vant0037 said:

callen said:

vant0037 said:

callen said:

so your advice is bad..........blow so you don't upset cop or spend extra night in jail but now hard to fight your case. Again I'm sure most DWI DEFENSE attorneys would agree.

Fine, but that's not at all what I said. And again, we're talking about two different tests. The first test is the PBT (on the side of the road) and there are no penalties that I know of for not taking it. But just understand that it may not make things any easier or any worse for you. You'll still likely be charged, whether you take that test or not, because technically, an officer needs to have a reason to ask you to take it in the first place. Furthermore, if you are a "close call" to begin with, blowing and passing the test might actually get you out of a charge. Not blowing? The cop will (and rightly so) assume the worst and charge you.

Now...

The second test is the one I'm concerned about. Most states have additional consequences for refusing to take this test. This is the test at the jail after you've been arrested. If you refuse this, you will likely lose your license for a long time and could be charged with an additional crime.

I think its fairly irresponsible - to the extent that we care about our fellow 10c Forum members - to suggest that people should "refuse tests" generally, especially because there are often a number of tests. Then we devolved into a discussion about refusing to answer questions, which was similar, but in my opinion, not quite as important as the first topic.

My point: it's bad advice to say that you should generally refuse tests, even if you think philosophically the tests are wrong/unconstitutional etc. For one, if you don't clarify which test you're talking about, you could be helping someone make a really bad decision and they might never know it. Two, the increased penalties for refusing the wrong/second test are pretty severe. As I stated before, refusing the second test [edit: this is in MN] takes your license away for 9 months longer than simply failing the test. Third, refusing might not spare you from a conviction when passing it (if you're close to the limit, have truly only had "one or two" etc) might. Lastly, and perhaps only an ancillary concern but a point worth considering, an officer who perceives you as cooperative and polite might let you go home instead of spending a weekend in the county jail.

To a defense attorney that thinks refusing the PBT (roadside test) is a way to beat a DWI: I'd question what retainer they're trying to sell you. It's not going to beat a DWI (PBT results aren't admissible anyway). They're trying to get you to hire them and they're doing so by trying to sell you a "loop-hole" that doesn't exist.

To a defense attorney that thinks refusing the second test is good advice: I'd question their ethics (as in many cases, such advice is advising a client to violate the law, which lawyers cannot do). I'd also question whether they're truly counseling their clients, knowing that many people would rather take the test and get their license back sooner.

Anyway, I think the point has been made: if you're ever faced with a choice about that second test, talk a lawyer first. Cheers.

Not knowing if your on the line is the best reason in my opinion to not blow.

if you blow you are giving the state evidence to be used against you in court. Self incrimination. Hard to fight numbers....easier to fight behaviour. Hence why DWI attorneys recommend you not to submit.

It's not a loop hole it's just smart. Why is it that they have no refusal weekends? Cause it's harder to convict without it. You are giving bad advise if your telling people to blow.

Disclaimer. Seek your own legal advice and suggest not from prosecuting DA. )

I promise you the advice of most defense attorneys is not to refuse. Perhaps the PBT, but you're wrong about the second one.

As far as my job being to convict...again, you're just dead wrong about that. I'm the one tasked with making convictions happen when appropriate, but that's simply not the job description.

This ain't about being sensitive; it's public education. If you really think judges, prosecutors and the courts are solely out to get people and abuse rights, looks like I got here just in time...

As Unsung pointed out its in legal systems best interest to convict.

Now I'm all for law and order and thank random cops when I have the opportunity. I also thank you for your part to get dangerous and stealing dirtbags off the street

I also realize that it's easy to criticize and for most part think we have a good system.

I do also understand my rights as a human being and the thread topic violates those rights. And contrary to your position I personally will not blow , field or station. You have your perspective and everyone else check what's best for you.

Peace.

chadwick

what are the costs of jailing & imprisoning drug addicts, drug users & the like? this is insanity & a very rigged crapfest-system ruining the lives of countless millions of people

callen

chadwick said:

what are the costs of jailing & imprisoning drug addicts, drug users & the like? this is insanity & a very rigged crapfest-system ruining the lives of countless millions of people

Think some cops would rather not deal with drug users. And probably feel like shit busting someone for a joint. But yeah it totally sucks such a large percentage of Americans are treated as criminals for such unjust laws.

hedonist

unsung said:

While I agree that the side of the road is not the place to argue over certain things I find that if one doesn't stand up for their rights when they are right the police will continue to be authoritative.

Another scenario...I'm walking my dog, a cop stops me to ask me for my ID. I refuse to comply. I'm not doing anything wrong. Besides I'm not driving, why should I carry my drivers license.

You're a smart guy. Surely you understand 'time and place'.

Out walking your dog, no ID, why have it? I agree, it's no biggie.

But you seem already on the defensive - "refuse to comply".

Gern Blansten

unsung said:

While I agree that the side of the road is not the place to argue over certain things I find that if one doesn't stand up for their rights when they are right the police will continue to be authoritative.

Another scenario...I'm walking my dog, a cop stops me to ask me for my ID. I refuse to comply. I'm not doing anything wrong. Besides I'm not driving, why should I carry my drivers license.

Maybe you match the description of someone who just robbed an old lady down the street? An officer could have a reason for asking for your ID. It might just be a conversation starter.