Robin Williams: Depression Alone Rarely Causes Suicide

backseatLover12

benjs said:

backseatLover12 said:

benjs said:

Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.

Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?

Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.

I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?

And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.

Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.

Honestly, I think we're going to disagree, and that's because I've suffered from depression, and I get the feeling that you haven't. The path of logic seems so reasonable to you - I love my children, therefore I owe them my continuous love, therefore I can not leave my children - is absurdly obvious to you. This is not when you have depression. It may or may not be there (that is, it may enter your mind), but the amplitude of this thought is so quiet it can be considered complete silence.

In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.

Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.

As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.

I believe I mentioned on page one somewhere that I have not been seriously depressed so I admit, I don't know what it's truly like. But children are a reason to live. Children are a reason to live! I firmly believe this and will always stick with this. I'm Sorry you disagree, I'm not saying you disagree with that sentence, but that it sounds like when you are in the depths of depression, it may be easy to forget that children are a reason to live. I can understand that. That's why reaching out and being there for each other is so important. Compassion, support, love.

Which you addressed above.

hedonist

I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?

Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.

Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.

But how?

I honestly want to know.

Last-12-Exit

hedonist said:

I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?

Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.

Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.

But how?

I honestly want to know.

If any of us knew the answer, we would be filthy rich.

hedonist

Last-12-Exit said:

hedonist said:

I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?

Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.

Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.

But how?

I honestly want to know.

If any of us knew the answer, we would be filthy rich.

Amen to that, man.

backseatLover12

I think Last12Exit did a good job at helping; a good friend willing to do what has to be done to help a friend in need. I agree about the meds, they may not help at all. Community involvement, volunteering, just being around them more often, listening. Maybe Benjs can help with some ideas too? What do you think?

hedonist

backseatLover12 said:

I think Last12Exit did a good job at helping; a good friend willing to do what has to be done to help a friend in need. I agree about the meds, they may not help at all. Community involvement, volunteering, just being around them more often, listening. Maybe Benjs can help with some ideas too? What do you think?

Absolutely - he got the ball rolling (damned sports metaphors ) and it takes balls (oy!) to take such action at the risk of that person hating you for it, even if temporarily - which I hope it is for him. I just wonder about what comes after that. Unless physically forcing one into treatment - whatever that even is - it would fall upon them to continue to pursue it...I would think.

norm

backseatLover12 said:

I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?

honestly, not trying to argue...and i totally get where you're coming from, i really do...your feelings on this totally acceptable...you're right...how can a person with children kill themselves? it's completely illogical...and that's the point...depression just isn't a black and white thing...there isn't a cure, a pill*, something one can say...virtually nothing can be done when a person has dropped to the depths of wanting out of life...it sucks

but that's why i think it needs to be talked about more...if depression was more accepted as a sickness like, say the flu, more people might not keep their pain to themselves and less might be inclined to off themselves...there are no easy answers...i wish there were

*-obviously, there is medication that helps but often times it doesn't and leads to suicide anyway

norm

hedonist said:

I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?

Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.

Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.

But how?

I honestly want to know.

wow to the bolded part...we are an overmedicated/undermedicated society...giving out powerful psychotropics for short-term sadness is unbelievable

as to your question, i really don't know...but i hope dialogues like this will help dispel the myths about depression and give a greater understanding of the disease

brianlux

norm said:

backseatLover12 said:

I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?

honestly, not trying to argue...and i totally get where you're coming from, i really do...your feelings on this totally acceptable...you're right...how can a person with children kill themselves? it's completely illogical...and that's the point...depression just isn't a black and white thing...there isn't a cure, a pill*, something one can say...virtually nothing can be done when a person has dropped to the depths of wanting out of life...it sucks

but that's why i think it needs to be talked about more...if depression was more accepted as a sickness like, say the flu, more people might not keep their pain to themselves and less might be inclined to off themselves...there are no easy answers...i wish there were

*-obviously, there is medication that helps but often times it doesn't and leads to suicide anyway

Regardless of my other remarks (for which I see no reason to retract) I agree with what you're both saying here, believe me! I don't want anybody to choose or succumb to suicide as a result of depression. I'm totally in favor of removing the stigma of not only depression but all mental illness- of which I have had past experience as a recipient of. We don't have stigmas against most other diseases so no need to stigmatize brain/mental illness.

I'm sorry if my earlier comments were offensive to some of you here. I care, I understand and have/have had major depression, PTSD, and anxiety disorders and the last thing I want is for someone to commit suicide.

Hedonist, as for treatment, I think it varies. For me the first thing that helped was taking Serzone but that drug has been discontinued doe to concerns about possible liver damage. Even more important for me was having a counselor strongly encouraging me to do something. I responded by putting in 1,000 of volunteer work at our local Health Library, and taking classes and eventually become department assistant for a counseling training program that focused on what we called "client centered therapy" based on the work of the department head, the work of Carl Rogers and Virginia Satire and Gerald Egan's books The Skilled Helper and You and Me.

norm

brian, you are simply being honest about this disease...which is exactly how it should be talked about

brianlux

norm said:

brian, you are simply being honest about this disease...which is exactly how it should be talked about

Thanks, Norm. I can see this is an important issue to you and I appreciate your advocacy!

hedonist

norm said:

brian, you are simply being honest about this disease...which is exactly how it should be talked about

Precisely - no offense taken here either.

Last-12-Exit

Forcing someone into therapy. I winder what good that will do. If my friend won't go to counseling, what can be done? The person barely wants to take the meds the doctor prescribed the other day. I can't get a court order mandating this person see a therapist.

I chew tobacco. I've quit before and started back up again several times. The longest I made it was 8 months. The shortest was a couple hours. I say that because when I quit for 8 months, I was mentally ready to quit. You have to be mentally ready to do anything. If my friend is not, nothing will help.

hedonist

That's what I was wondering too, Last 12.

My god, how powerful our minds and will can be, on each end of the spectrum.

I wish the best for your friend's road ahead.

brianlux

Last-12-Exit said:

Forcing someone into therapy. I winder what good that will do. If my friend won't go to counseling, what can be done? The person barely wants to take the meds the doctor prescribed the other day. I can't get a court order mandating this person see a therapist.

I chew tobacco. I've quit before and started back up again several times. The longest I made it was 8 months. The shortest was a couple hours. I say that because when I quit for 8 months, I was mentally ready to quit. You have to be mentally ready to do anything. If my friend is not, nothing will help.

Totally agree. Nobody can "make" you better and you can't "make" anyone better. Each person has to want it.

The hardest question on the final test to complete my Human Services Certificate was to write a response to a hypothetical client my hypothetical agency had sent to me for court mandated counseling. I passed that question by first giving the client basic empathy and then presenting an opportunity challenge for him to take advantage of the opportunity before him. Basically, that was putting the ball back into his court. He had to chose to take advantage of the opportunity or not. (Not sure how to say that without all the redundancy.)

backseatLover12

norm said:

backseatLover12 said:

I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?

honestly, not trying to argue...and i totally get where you're coming from, i really do...your feelings on this totally acceptable...you're right...how can a person with children kill themselves? it's completely illogical...and that's the point...depression just isn't a black and white thing...there isn't a cure, a pill*, something one can say...virtually nothing can be done when a person has dropped to the depths of wanting out of life...it sucks

but that's why i think it needs to be talked about more...if depression was more accepted as a sickness like, say the flu, more people might not keep their pain to themselves and less might be inclined to off themselves...there are no easy answers...i wish there were

*-obviously, there is medication that helps but often times it doesn't and leads to suicide anyway

How can you say the bolder part Norm? There IS Help, there is always help out there. Even when it's supposedly "too late". You say it's not black and white yet you say it's all black when you say Nothing Can Be Done.

You're right it needs to be talked more. Let's start with an open mind to sheer possibilities rather than saying everything is shot to Hell once a certain point of despair is reached. What is the percentage of lives saved from people on the verge calling suicide hotlines? I know some are and they're saved at the last minute.

hedonist

You've made good points here, backseat...but calling a hotline or taking any other pro-action is done by the person. And thankfully that resource IS used and helpful at times.

But what happens when someone refuses help, doesn't want it?

I think norm's "virtually nothing can be done" - and note the word virtually - rings true, at least to my admittedly limited experience.

Are they just taken away against their will and it's men-in-white-coats time?

Definitely not a two-shaded deal...hopefully others come to light.

backseatLover12

hedonist said:

You've made good points here, backseat...but calling a hotline or taking any other pro-action is done by the person. And thankfully that resource IS used and helpful at times.

But what happens when someone refuses help, doesn't want it?

I think norm's "virtually nothing can be done" - and note the word virtually - rings true, at least to my admittedly limited experience.

Are they just taken away against their will and it's men-in-white-coats time?

Definitely not a two-shaded deal...hopefully others come to light.

Certainly, in some cases, the mind's made up. But not in all. Like Norm said, it's not all black and white so perhaps we shouldn't treat it as such. Treating it case by case and per individual is the right way to approach such a personal Hell. Rather than generalize it. Hey, I'm guilty of that too, but I personally don't believe in giving up on my loved ones if they ever experience severe depression.

Last-12-Exit

I've always been of the opinion that suicide is the right of the individual. I've supported Dr. Kevorkian (I know that he assisted the terminally ill and not depression patients). I always thought that it was a selfish act but if someone felt it necessary, it's their choice.

I've formed this opinion over the years knowing (to my knowledge) nobody who has been suffering from severe depression. And knowing 2 people that have committed suicide. Obviously those two people were suffering from something. I was unaware of any problems mentally they were going through. And neither of them had a wife or kids.

Now it is different. My very close friend has a family. And children. I'm not saying this person is.suicidal. When asked by the doctor if there were any "bad" thoughts this person answered with an emphatic no. I believe this person. But depression and the mind is so powerful. That could change and that person could never tell me. How can I know if this person is having these thoughts? I could ask everyday and the answer could be the same.

I never thought I would have to go though something like this. I know this person never thought that they would. There are so many questions that I don't have the answer to. It's a scary thing. To be ignorant and naive about this. To have no control over what your mind does. To watch a person I love cry for days and not be able to help.

Thanks for the encouraging words. They are helpful. I'm glad I have a place to vent about this. I feel so confused and helpless, I can't imaging how my friend feels.

SD48277

Not to derail the thread, but I just saw this on Henry Rollins' website:

AN APOLOGY

08-22-14
August 22 2014

2016 PST

For the last 9+ hours, I have been answering letters from people from all over the world. The anger is off the scale and in my opinion, well placed.

The article I wrote in the LA Weekly about suicide caused a lot of hurt. This is perhaps one of the bigger understatements of all time. I read all the letters. Some of them were very long and the disappointment, resentment and ringing clarity was jarring.

That I hurt anyone by what I said, and I did hurt many, disgusts me. It was not at all my intent but it most certainly was the result.

I have had a life of depression. Some days are excruciating. Knowing what I know and having been through what I have, I should have known better but I obviously did not. I get so mad when I hear that someone has died this way. Not mad at them, mad at whatever got them there and that no one magically appeared to somehow save them.

I am not asking for a break from the caning, take me to the woodshed as much as you see fit. If what I said has caused you to be done with me, I get it.

I wrote something for the LA Weekly that they will post on Monday.

I wanted to get this out at this moment.

I am deeply sorry. Down to my marrow. I can’t think that means anything to you, but I am. Completely sorry. It is not of my interest to hurt anyone but I know I did. Thank you for reading this. Henry