It's funny you say that. The person told me today that they had put together a care package for my nephew who is going off to college tomorrow and that it helped keep them busy. Now that it's over with, the person feels like they are not needed anymore. The person liked to feel busy and needed. It seemed to help.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Volunteers are always needed and can be as busy as they choose. I know it's not a simple fix, but maybe it would help some?
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Bravo channel is running one of those Inside the Actor's Studio things with Robin (cannot stand their weepy music though).
I wish he'd have been able to just chill and talk about himself and his life without being on, performing. But I guess that was him.
So fucking funny though; he borrowed a pink shawl from a woman in the audience and using it as a prop, went from Indian woman to rabbi to Iraqi woman to Iron Chef...and much as I think it would've been a blast to have a chat with him, I bet I'd never get a word in edgewise
(and speaking to how his life ended and the issue of children per Rollins, it's both sweet and sad to see him talking about his children, at the time they were children)
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
After reading Rollins article there's more than a bit of tumbling going on in my thoughts. I can very much understand why some would be unhappy with what Henry says and yet, as someone who is very lucky to be alive instead of a successful suicide, I have to admit he makes some point which to me seem valid.
First, however, the part that doesn't work for me: "When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind." I think I get why Henry Rollins would say that. He saw his best friend, Joe Cole, a young man full of life, shot to death in the head. So I can see why Rollins might say, "When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind." Personally, I can't say that- I almost negated my existence so to make that statement I think would make me a hypocrite. Of the two people I know who committed suicide, one was a young man who could find no other way and I feel committed to remembering him and keeping him alive in my mind. The other was someone who intentionally drank herself to death and her friends including myself were often pissed off because we kept trying to help her but she did herself in anyway. But I came so close to cancelling myself so who am I to judge... right? I get the idea that depression killed her.
But I don't see Rollins article as merely a put down on suicides. I think it can be seen as quite the opposite. I still struggle with depression and anxiety and probably always will. One of the things I do when I see myself going into the black hole is pull one of Henry's books off the shelf and start reading. "Hack or pack". I read Rollins for inspiration and strength. He's all about staying tough and I can always use a little coaching that way so when I need that, Henry's my man. I'm sorry he feels the need to cancel suicides from his mind but that's his perspective and it doesn't offend me because what I get from him is strength coaching and the will to hack, not pack.
Rollin's article also contains this brilliant piece of wisdom:
...I get that you can’t understand anyone else’s torment. All that “I feel your pain” stuff is bullshit and disrespectful. You can appreciate it, listen and support someone as best you can, but you can’t understand it. Depression is so personal and so unique to each of us that when you’re in its teeth, you think you invented it.
Absolutely true. None of can ever crawl inside another person's brain and understand feel what they feel. It is virtually impossible. We can surmise what another might be feeling based on our own experience but we can never feel what someone else feels. I don't know what Robin Williams was feeling but it must have been terrible and wish to God he had found a way to live and I will never cancel him from my mind but when I need to find that inner strength to hack, I'm going with Rollins. At the same time, I will always find many moments in Robin Williams work that will continue to inspire me to live life to the fullest. There were so many.
The sad irony for me is that I really have to wonder if Robin had been a Rollins fan and read his books would he have found something there to help himself to keep going? It wouldn't surprise me. I wish he had found something that would have fed his will to live. I so very much wish he could have.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I'm seeing his words a bit different than you, Brian. I know, have read, how you respect him (and I've felt the same reading some of his writing here and there)...but he comes off as hypocritical to me, with this.
Admirably honest, yet hypocritical.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
I'm seeing his words a bit different than you, Brian. I know, have read, how you respect him (and I've felt the same reading some of his writing here and there)...but he comes off as hypocritical to me, with this.
Admirably honest, yet hypocritical.
No worries, I can see how H.R.'s words here don't work for everyone. Right off hand I can think of two of my favorite writers who basically said, "I don't mind if people disagree with me as long as they can formulate an intelligent, sincere argument"- Henry Rollins and Sherman Alexie.
I'm curious as to how do you see Rollins' being hypocritical in that article. What did I miss?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
Morning
What stuck out most to me was his acknowledging it (depression) can't be understood by those who haven't experienced it - and maybe even by those who have, given our differences - but then makes judgments about them. Basically what you said in your earlier post!
Good quote, by the way.
I'm glad his works have helped you, continue to help you. Those places to find comfort and clarity are invaluable.
Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.
Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?
Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
Wow, Last-12-Exit, kudos to you, man. You are an incredible friend. We need to be there for our depressed loved ones and do the dirty work some times. Because it saves lives. You're an inspiration!
After reading Rollins article there's more than a bit of tumbling going on in my thoughts. I can very much understand why some would be unhappy with what Henry says and yet, as someone who is very lucky to be alive instead of a successful suicide, I have to admit he makes some point which to me seem valid.
First, however, the part that doesn't work for me: "When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind." I think I get why Henry Rollins would say that. He saw his best friend, Joe Cole, a young man full of life, shot to death in the head. So I can see why Rollins might say, "When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind." Personally, I can't say that- I almost negated my existence so to make that statement I think would make me a hypocrite. Of the two people I know who committed suicide, one was a young man who could find no other way and I feel committed to remembering him and keeping him alive in my mind. The other was someone who intentionally drank herself to death and her friends including myself were often pissed off because we kept trying to help her but she did herself in anyway. But I came so close to cancelling myself so who am I to judge... right? I get the idea that depression killed her.
But I don't see Rollins article as merely a put down on suicides. I think it can be seen as quite the opposite. I still struggle with depression and anxiety and probably always will. One of the things I do when I see myself going into the black hole is pull one of Henry's books off the shelf and start reading. "Hack or pack". I read Rollins for inspiration and strength. He's all about staying tough and I can always use a little coaching that way so when I need that, Henry's my man. I'm sorry he feels the need to cancel suicides from his mind but that's his perspective and it doesn't offend me because what I get from him is strength coaching and the will to hack, not pack.
Rollin's article also contains this brilliant piece of wisdom:
...I get that you can’t understand anyone else’s torment. All that “I feel your pain” stuff is bullshit and disrespectful. You can appreciate it, listen and support someone as best you can, but you can’t understand it. Depression is so personal and so unique to each of us that when you’re in its teeth, you think you invented it.
Absolutely true. None of can ever crawl inside another person's brain and understand feel what they feel. It is virtually impossible. We can surmise what another might be feeling based on our own experience but we can never feel what someone else feels. I don't know what Robin Williams was feeling but it must have been terrible and wish to God he had found a way to live and I will never cancel him from my mind but when I need to find that inner strength to hack, I'm going with Rollins. At the same time, I will always find many moments in Robin Williams work that will continue to inspire me to live life to the fullest. There were so many.
The sad irony for me is that I really have to wonder if Robin had been a Rollins fan and read his books would he have found something there to help himself to keep going? It wouldn't surprise me. I wish he had found something that would have fed his will to live. I so very much wish he could have.
Thank you for sharing your personal experience Brian. I am glad that you're still here.
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
I don't have children but love my husband to the moon. I get it's not the same as having a child, but to me, love is love (on that level).
I don't know that suicide is leaving behind their children, maybe more about leaving themselves behind, thinking it would be best for themselves and their family? I don't know.
However - and hopefully this doesn't come across harsher than I intend - I fully support the right to take your own life. Were I diagnosed with Alzheimer's or ALS or Parkinson's or any other shitbag of a disease, I would want, even demand, the option to opt out before losing the "me" in myself.
Guess I'm all over the place on this, as I do get much of what you're saying.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
^^^ Thanks, backseatlover. I'm glad too. :-) But it does make me a bit of a hypocrite, maybe more so that what Hedonist (good morning to you too!) sees in what Rollins said.
But maybe not totally a hypocrite- I've tried to turn that bad choice into something useful by encouraging others to find ways to choose to live. I really do believe that's what Rollins wants and is trying to convey in his own "tough love" fashion. He's anti-suicide. He wishes his friends who had killed themselves had chosen not to do that. I hope some people out there will see his words this way.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
I don't have children but love my husband to the moon. I get it's not the same as having a child, but to me, love is love (on that level).
I don't know that suicide is leaving behind their children, maybe more about leaving themselves behind, thinking it would be best for themselves and their family? I don't know.
However - and hopefully this doesn't come across harsher than I intend - I fully support the right to take your own life. Were I diagnosed with Alzheimer's or ALS or Parkinson's or any other shitbag of a disease, I would want, even demand, the option to opt out before losing the "me" in myself.
Guess I'm all over the place on this, as I do get much of what you're saying.
I only support taking one's life when there is a terminal diagnosis. Life is a gift. It's not meant to be thrown away, but there has to be the love, support and care of family and friends to actually make a difference in a depressed individual's life. Unfortunately, not everyone has friends like Last-12-Exit.
^^^ Thanks, backseatlover. I'm glad too. :-) But it does make me a bit of a hypocrite, maybe more so that what Hedonist (good morning to you too!) sees in what Rollins said.
But maybe not totally a hypocrite- I've tried to turn that bad choice into something useful by encouraging others to find ways to choose to live. I really do believe that's what Rollins wants and is trying to convey in his own "tough love" fashion. He's anti-suicide. He wishes his friends who had killed themselves had chosen not to do that. I hope some people out there will see his words this way.
I read it that way as well. Perhaps it's his attitude that force people to get defensive quickly and placing quick judgment.
^^^ Thanks, backseatlover. I'm glad too. :-) But it does make me a bit of a hypocrite, maybe more so that what Hedonist (good morning to you too!) sees in what Rollins said.
But maybe not totally a hypocrite- I've tried to turn that bad choice into something useful by encouraging others to find ways to choose to live. I really do believe that's what Rollins wants and is trying to convey in his own "tough love" fashion. He's anti-suicide. He wishes his friends who had killed themselves had chosen not to do that. I hope some people out there will see his words this way.
but brian, everyone is (or should be) anti-suicide...that's not the point...as benjs, me and others have said, suicide is a symptom of depression...not all depressives kill themselves but some do...henry has never been "there"...he can't imagine what it's like to want the pain to end regardless of how it will affect family and friends...he's coming at this from a rational mind and you can't do that when it comes to depression...it's not a rational disease
^^^ Thanks, backseatlover. I'm glad too. :-) But it does make me a bit of a hypocrite, maybe more so that what Hedonist (good morning to you too!) sees in what Rollins said.
But maybe not totally a hypocrite- I've tried to turn that bad choice into something useful by encouraging others to find ways to choose to live. I really do believe that's what Rollins wants and is trying to convey in his own "tough love" fashion. He's anti-suicide. He wishes his friends who had killed themselves had chosen not to do that. I hope some people out there will see his words this way.
I read it that way as well. Perhaps it's his attitude that force people to get defensive quickly and placing quick judgment.
Well...I've nothing to get defensive about here. And we all judge, for better or worse, for both or neither. And it's OK by me.
I'm not applauding taking one's life. It's fucked up for the person being at that desperate hopeless point. It's fucked up for those to live with that loss, and try to comprehend it.
To me, life IS a gift. I know for some it's a burden.
Where's the cure? Therapy? Meds with possible suicidal side-effects? And how, for the life of me (ha), does one find hope with depression AND a diagnosis that your life and dignity and control are soon to be out the window?
Robin Williams didn’t die from suicide. I only just heard the sad, sad news of Robin Williams’s death. My wife sent me a message to tell me he had died, and, when I asked her what he died from, she told me something that nobody in the news seems to be talking about.
When people die from cancer, their cause of death can be various horrible things – seizure, stroke, pneumonia – and when someone dies after battling cancer, and people ask “How did they die?”, you never hear anyone say “pulmonary embolism”, the answer is always “cancer”. A Pulmonary Embolism can be the final cause of death with some cancers, but when a friend of mine died from cancer, he died from cancer. That was it. And when I asked my wife what Robin Williams died from, she, very wisely, replied “Depression”.
The word “suicide” gives many people the impression that “it was his own decision,” or “he chose to die, whereas most people with cancer fight to live.” And, because Depression is still such a misunderstood condition, you can hardly blame people for not really understanding. Just a quick search on Twitter will show how many people have little sympathy for those who commit suicide…
@TateLovett thank u for being right. I love robin Williams but I think the way he died was his own stupidity. It’s sad but his own fault. — Kara Seymour (@kara_michelle01) August 12, 2014
Idk why everyone is so sympathetic towards Robin Williams. Yea he was a good actor and all but the dude killed himself. His own damn fault — Darnell (@Thathigga) August 12, 2014
Robin Williams dieing is sad but it was his choice What about the 1000′s of children dieing in Palestine that dont want to die thats sad too — TerryCrosbie (@Terry_Crosbie) August 12, 2014
But, just as a Pulmonary Embolism is a fatal symptom of cancer, suicide is a fatal symptom of Depression. Depression is an illness, not a choice of lifestyle. You can’t just “cheer up” with depression, just as you can’t choose not to have cancer. When someone commits suicide as a result of Depression, they die from Depression – an illness that kills millions each year. It is hard to know exactly how many people actually die from Depression each year because the figures and statistics only seem to show how many people die from “suicide” each year (and you don’t necessarily have to suffer Depression to commit suicide, it’s usually just implied). But considering that one person commits suicide every 14 minutes in the US alone, we clearly need to do more to battle this illness, and the stigmas that continue to surround it. Perhaps Depression might lose some its “it was his own fault” stigma, if we start focussing on the illness, rather than the symptom. Robin Williams didn’t die from suicide. He died from Depression*. It wasn’t his choice to suffer that. http://www.tomclempson.com/2014/08/robin-williams-did-not-die-from-suicide/
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
It might be worth mentioning that what what any of us say, or Rollins, or John or Jane Doe says on a public forum or written article is be it's nature, generalized. What we need mostly is more compassion in whatever form it takes for each individual. If I were a suicide counselor my words to a client would vary according to what I believed is needed for the individual. First we have to get past saying "I know how you feel" because we only know how we feel. It really is important to acknowledge each persons perspective. Then carefully choose an approach to helping, always starting with empathy. I think everyone responds well to different forms of constructive challenging- some very gently, some needing a much tougher love than others.
Finally, I think it's important to accept the fact that no matter what we do, some people will chose to end their life. Of course, I can only base this statement on my experience. When in 1996 I took a whole bottle of Xanax with several shots of Jim Beam whiskey I fully expected to die. I made that choice. Somebody found me unconscious and took me to the hospital. When I woke up in the hospital I pulled the IV's out of my arm and tried to leave but a contusion to my left heal prevented me from moving quickly. Trying to escape help was a choice. Personally, I don't blame these actions on anyone or anything other than myself. I look back on them and shake my head.
I would never criticize anyone for doing something like what I did. Maybe their pain is or was immeasurably worse than mine was. I can only hope that such a person will find a way to choose life because my experience tells me that pretty much every day is one hell of a great gift after another. I wish Robin Williams had had whatever form of help it would have taken to lead him to choosing to live. I'm very sad that didn't happen.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.
Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?
Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
Honestly, I think we're going to disagree, and that's because I've suffered from depression, and I get the feeling that you haven't. The path of logic seems so reasonable to you - I love my children, therefore I owe them my continuous love, therefore I can not leave my children - is absurdly obvious to you. This is not when you have depression. It may or may not be there (that is, it may enter your mind), but the amplitude of this thought is so quiet it can be considered complete silence.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.
Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.
As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
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Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.
Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?
Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
Honestly, I think we're going to disagree, and that's because I've suffered from depression, and I get the feeling that you haven't. The path of logic seems so reasonable to you - I love my children, therefore I owe them my continuous love, therefore I can not leave my children - is absurdly obvious to you. This is not when you have depression. It may or may not be there (that is, it may enter your mind), but the amplitude of this thought is so quiet it can be considered complete silence.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.
Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.
As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.
I would caution against all or nothing thinking. Suicide is not all due to depression and suicide is not all due to deciding to to kill oneself. It's a combination of deciding to kill oneself as a way to deal with depression. Simply saying the disease of depression kills people doesn't leave a lot of room for decision making. I honestly believe more suicides could be prevent by having people understand that killing oneself is a decision. Again (see above) how you go about that varies from person to person quite a bit.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
I want to add here that we may have differing viewpoints here but I think we all feel the same way- we care about those who struggle with the terrible condition that is depression and we are all saddened when we lose someone as the end result.
Be well, everybody. I hope your day goes well and you find something good going on in your life today.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.
Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?
Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
Honestly, I think we're going to disagree, and that's because I've suffered from depression, and I get the feeling that you haven't. The path of logic seems so reasonable to you - I love my children, therefore I owe them my continuous love, therefore I can not leave my children - is absurdly obvious to you. This is not when you have depression. It may or may not be there (that is, it may enter your mind), but the amplitude of this thought is so quiet it can be considered complete silence.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.
Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.
As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.
I would caution against all or nothing thinking. Suicide is not all due to depression and suicide is not all due to deciding to to kill oneself. It's a combination of deciding to kill oneself as a way to deal with depression. Simply saying the disease of depression kills people doesn't leave a lot of room for decision making. I honestly believe more suicides could be prevent by having people understand that killing oneself is a decision. Again (see above) how you go about that varies from person to person quite a bit.
That's very true about thinking in binary terms, brianlux - I'll try and refrain myself from that kind of thinking, because you're entirely right that typecasting is a dangerous act. That being said, what I wrote is that depression can be lethal, and it can also be helped. I don't think that leaves anyone pigeon-holed into one action or another. That statement validates the realness of depression, and the real potential for harm it can bring, while making people aware of the fact that there are things that can be done to combat it.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
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Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,760
Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.
Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?
Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
Honestly, I think we're going to disagree, and that's because I've suffered from depression, and I get the feeling that you haven't. The path of logic seems so reasonable to you - I love my children, therefore I owe them my continuous love, therefore I can not leave my children - is absurdly obvious to you. This is not when you have depression. It may or may not be there (that is, it may enter your mind), but the amplitude of this thought is so quiet it can be considered complete silence.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.
Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.
As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.
I would caution against all or nothing thinking. Suicide is not all due to depression and suicide is not all due to deciding to to kill oneself. It's a combination of deciding to kill oneself as a way to deal with depression. Simply saying the disease of depression kills people doesn't leave a lot of room for decision making. I honestly believe more suicides could be prevent by having people understand that killing oneself is a decision. Again (see above) how you go about that varies from person to person quite a bit.
That's very true about thinking in binary terms, brianlux - I'll try and refrain myself from that kind of thinking, because you're entirely right that typecasting is a dangerous act. That being said, what I wrote is that depression can be lethal, and it can also be helped. I don't think that leaves anyone pigeon-holed into one action or another. That statement validates the realness of depression, and the real potential for harm it can bring, while making people aware of the fact that there are things that can be done to combat it.
Thank you for spreading that awareness, benjs! :-)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.
Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?
Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
Honestly, I think we're going to disagree, and that's because I've suffered from depression, and I get the feeling that you haven't. The path of logic seems so reasonable to you - I love my children, therefore I owe them my continuous love, therefore I can not leave my children - is absurdly obvious to you. This is not when you have depression. It may or may not be there (that is, it may enter your mind), but the amplitude of this thought is so quiet it can be considered complete silence.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.
Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.
As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.
I would caution against all or nothing thinking. Suicide is not all due to depression and suicide is not all due to deciding to to kill oneself. It's a combination of deciding to kill oneself as a way to deal with depression. Simply saying the disease of depression kills people doesn't leave a lot of room for decision making. I honestly believe more suicides could be prevent by having people understand that killing oneself is a decision. Again (see above) how you go about that varies from person to person quite a bit.
That's very true about thinking in binary terms, brianlux - I'll try and refrain myself from that kind of thinking, because you're entirely right that typecasting is a dangerous act. That being said, what I wrote is that depression can be lethal, and it can also be helped. I don't think that leaves anyone pigeon-holed into one action or another. That statement validates the realness of depression, and the real potential for harm it can bring, while making people aware of the fact that there are things that can be done to combat it.
Thank you for spreading that awareness, benjs! :-)
Likewise!
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
i just want to change the attitudes of people like henry rollins'...to not dismiss suicide as a choice but to think of it as result of mental illness...and to remove any stigma that is associated with it
If he had young children I might agree with him. But his children are adults and don't actually need him any more than any adult family member needs anyone. If anything, I would have thought one would find it harder to swallow when the CHILD of someone kills themselves, since no one can possibly be more devastated than the parent of someone who killed themselves. At any rate, once someone is at the point that they cannot live another second because it's so unbearable, it's pretty ludicrous to assume that they feel capable of continuing to live and being there for anyone. I'm sure many people with children who kill themselves probably think their kids will be better off without them.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Robin Williams didn’t die from suicide. I only just heard the sad, sad news of Robin Williams’s death. My wife sent me a message to tell me he had died, and, when I asked her what he died from, she told me something that nobody in the news seems to be talking about.
When people die from cancer, their cause of death can be various horrible things – seizure, stroke, pneumonia – and when someone dies after battling cancer, and people ask “How did they die?”, you never hear anyone say “pulmonary embolism”, the answer is always “cancer”. A Pulmonary Embolism can be the final cause of death with some cancers, but when a friend of mine died from cancer, he died from cancer. That was it. And when I asked my wife what Robin Williams died from, she, very wisely, replied “Depression”.
The word “suicide” gives many people the impression that “it was his own decision,” or “he chose to die, whereas most people with cancer fight to live.” And, because Depression is still such a misunderstood condition, you can hardly blame people for not really understanding. Just a quick search on Twitter will show how many people have little sympathy for those who commit suicide…
@TateLovett thank u for being right. I love robin Williams but I think the way he died was his own stupidity. It’s sad but his own fault. — Kara Seymour (@kara_michelle01) August 12, 2014
Idk why everyone is so sympathetic towards Robin Williams. Yea he was a good actor and all but the dude killed himself. His own damn fault — Darnell (@Thathigga) August 12, 2014
Robin Williams dieing is sad but it was his choice What about the 1000′s of children dieing in Palestine that dont want to die thats sad too — TerryCrosbie (@Terry_Crosbie) August 12, 2014
But, just as a Pulmonary Embolism is a fatal symptom of cancer, suicide is a fatal symptom of Depression. Depression is an illness, not a choice of lifestyle. You can’t just “cheer up” with depression, just as you can’t choose not to have cancer. When someone commits suicide as a result of Depression, they die from Depression – an illness that kills millions each year. It is hard to know exactly how many people actually die from Depression each year because the figures and statistics only seem to show how many people die from “suicide” each year (and you don’t necessarily have to suffer Depression to commit suicide, it’s usually just implied). But considering that one person commits suicide every 14 minutes in the US alone, we clearly need to do more to battle this illness, and the stigmas that continue to surround it. Perhaps Depression might lose some its “it was his own fault” stigma,if we start focussing on the illness, rather than the symptom. Robin Williams didn’t die from suicide. He died from Depression*. It wasn’t his choice to suffer that. http://www.tomclempson.com/2014/08/robin-williams-did-not-die-from-suicide/
I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?
Comments
I wish he'd have been able to just chill and talk about himself and his life without being on, performing. But I guess that was him.
So fucking funny though; he borrowed a pink shawl from a woman in the audience and using it as a prop, went from Indian woman to rabbi to Iraqi woman to Iron Chef...and much as I think it would've been a blast to have a chat with him, I bet I'd never get a word in edgewise
(and speaking to how his life ended and the issue of children per Rollins, it's both sweet and sad to see him talking about his children, at the time they were children)
First, however, the part that doesn't work for me: "When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind." I think I get why Henry Rollins would say that. He saw his best friend, Joe Cole, a young man full of life, shot to death in the head. So I can see why Rollins might say, "When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind." Personally, I can't say that- I almost negated my existence so to make that statement I think would make me a hypocrite. Of the two people I know who committed suicide, one was a young man who could find no other way and I feel committed to remembering him and keeping him alive in my mind. The other was someone who intentionally drank herself to death and her friends including myself were often pissed off because we kept trying to help her but she did herself in anyway. But I came so close to cancelling myself so who am I to judge... right? I get the idea that depression killed her.
But I don't see Rollins article as merely a put down on suicides. I think it can be seen as quite the opposite. I still struggle with depression and anxiety and probably always will. One of the things I do when I see myself going into the black hole is pull one of Henry's books off the shelf and start reading. "Hack or pack". I read Rollins for inspiration and strength. He's all about staying tough and I can always use a little coaching that way so when I need that, Henry's my man. I'm sorry he feels the need to cancel suicides from his mind but that's his perspective and it doesn't offend me because what I get from him is strength coaching and the will to hack, not pack.
Rollin's article also contains this brilliant piece of wisdom:
...I get that you can’t understand anyone else’s torment. All that “I feel your pain” stuff is bullshit and disrespectful. You can appreciate it, listen and support someone as best you can, but you can’t understand it. Depression is so personal and so unique to each of us that when you’re in its teeth, you think you invented it.
Absolutely true. None of can ever crawl inside another person's brain and understand feel what they feel. It is virtually impossible. We can surmise what another might be feeling based on our own experience but we can never feel what someone else feels. I don't know what Robin Williams was feeling but it must have been terrible and wish to God he had found a way to live and I will never cancel him from my mind but when I need to find that inner strength to hack, I'm going with Rollins. At the same time, I will always find many moments in Robin Williams work that will continue to inspire me to live life to the fullest. There were so many.
The sad irony for me is that I really have to wonder if Robin had been a Rollins fan and read his books would he have found something there to help himself to keep going? It wouldn't surprise me. I wish he had found something that would have fed his will to live. I so very much wish he could have.
Admirably honest, yet hypocritical.
I'm curious as to how do you see Rollins' being hypocritical in that article. What did I miss?
What stuck out most to me was his acknowledging it (depression) can't be understood by those who haven't experienced it - and maybe even by those who have, given our differences - but then makes judgments about them. Basically what you said in your earlier post!
Good quote, by the way.
I'm glad his works have helped you, continue to help you. Those places to find comfort and clarity are invaluable.
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
I don't know that suicide is leaving behind their children, maybe more about leaving themselves behind, thinking it would be best for themselves and their family? I don't know.
However - and hopefully this doesn't come across harsher than I intend - I fully support the right to take your own life. Were I diagnosed with Alzheimer's or ALS or Parkinson's or any other shitbag of a disease, I would want, even demand, the option to opt out before losing the "me" in myself.
Guess I'm all over the place on this, as I do get much of what you're saying.
But maybe not totally a hypocrite- I've tried to turn that bad choice into something useful by encouraging others to find ways to choose to live. I really do believe that's what Rollins wants and is trying to convey in his own "tough love" fashion. He's anti-suicide. He wishes his friends who had killed themselves had chosen not to do that. I hope some people out there will see his words this way.
I'm not applauding taking one's life. It's fucked up for the person being at that desperate hopeless point. It's fucked up for those to live with that loss, and try to comprehend it.
To me, life IS a gift. I know for some it's a burden.
Where's the cure? Therapy? Meds with possible suicidal side-effects? And how, for the life of me (ha), does one find hope with depression AND a diagnosis that your life and dignity and control are soon to be out the window?
The act of suicide is a result of depression if not treated.
Finally, I think it's important to accept the fact that no matter what we do, some people will chose to end their life. Of course, I can only base this statement on my experience. When in 1996 I took a whole bottle of Xanax with several shots of Jim Beam whiskey I fully expected to die. I made that choice. Somebody found me unconscious and took me to the hospital. When I woke up in the hospital I pulled the IV's out of my arm and tried to leave but a contusion to my left heal prevented me from moving quickly. Trying to escape help was a choice. Personally, I don't blame these actions on anyone or anything other than myself. I look back on them and shake my head.
I would never criticize anyone for doing something like what I did. Maybe their pain is or was immeasurably worse than mine was. I can only hope that such a person will find a way to choose life because my experience tells me that pretty much every day is one hell of a great gift after another. I wish Robin Williams had had whatever form of help it would have taken to lead him to choosing to live. I'm very sad that didn't happen.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.
Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.
As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Be well, everybody. I hope your day goes well and you find something good going on in your life today.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1