Thanks for posting this, norm. I disagree with Rollins as well, and as someone who's been through depression, I know that Robin Williams didn't kill himself, nor did Rollins' depressed friend.
Depression hanged Rollins' friend, just as depression hanged Robin Williams. When someone dies of cancer, we say they died of cancer. When someone drinks too much even, we say they died as a byproduct of alcoholism. We call cancer a disease, we call alcoholism a disease, and we call depression a disease: yet someone dies of cancer, someone dies from alcoholism, or someone commits suicide. Wait, what?
Depression doesn't lead to suicide in the typical sense of the word: depression, like cancer, is a disease which is potentially lethal. One takes over your body and destroys it, the other takes over your mind and aims to destroy you. If one is to recognize depression as a real disease - he or she should also recognize the ramifications of it too. In my opinion, depression killed Robin Williams - not Robin Williams.
I don't know, I mean, we all have our own perspectives, and although there are parts in Rollins opinion piece where he is contradictory, I can't say I fully disagree. I definitely agree with him about having children. That is something I've always felt, that to leave them behind - purposely - is wrong. This is just my opinion. Just like it's just Henry Rollin's opinion. I have a child. Do the rest of you have children who disagree with him on this?
And in response to the last paragraph quoted above, I don't buy that depression kills people. I'm sorry. That's an excuse for suicide. That's making suicide a valid - and acceptable - option when we're depressed. We all have choices, and I understand that those who are severely depressed are not thinking straight, they want their pain to end desperately, and suicide seems to be a great option. But we as society should not just let our loved ones take that easy route, we need to get them the help they need while they're still here. Suicide should not be a viable option. That's just how I feel. Life is a huge gift, and it's short anyway so let's help our loved ones who are sick. Depression doesn't have to "kill". There is no cure for cancer, we have zero control over our survival. But depression is different. It doesn't have to be deadly.
Not to mention, and I don't know who's spiritual here, the spirit of those who take their own lives are usually lost, teetering between earth and where the spirit should go. Houses that have had suicides are usually haunted, those who took their own lives are doomed to walk the planks of the house because their spirits were not at peace when they left this world. Now I know people will think that's crazy, but it's true in many cases.
Honestly, I think we're going to disagree, and that's because I've suffered from depression, and I get the feeling that you haven't. The path of logic seems so reasonable to you - I love my children, therefore I owe them my continuous love, therefore I can not leave my children - is absurdly obvious to you. This is not when you have depression. It may or may not be there (that is, it may enter your mind), but the amplitude of this thought is so quiet it can be considered complete silence.
In regards to your second paragraph, I think you've misinterpreted my stance. I can recognize the validity of depression, and I can recognize the side effects and potentially fatal causes, but just as I would encourage a cancer patient to seek treatment - I would do the same for anyone with depression. The challenge is in figuring out how best to help, when the logical framework you abide by differs from a friend with a depression. I assure you - I am not anti-help. And as most people who successfully fought through a depression will tell you - they are mostly here because of help.
Recognizing the potentially lethal nature of depression is critical in my opinion though: if you don't blame a disease for the potential death of a person, you are by process of elimination transferring the blame of the potential death of a person to that person himself. Now, if you're suffering from depression, blame and sensitivity are two things that are tremendously amplified, so how would you expect someone to feel when you essentially tell them they are a hindrance when they're alive (by being a constant burden - a very typical feeling for someone with depression), but they would be a bigger hindrance when they're dead? That's putting someone between a rock and a hard place - but at least if they let depression win and take their lives, they can have some semblance of silence and thoughtlessness: which is better than perpetual bleakness.
As for the spirituality statement, besides the obvious unprovable nature of the theory, I'm not entirely sure how it would or should affect the stance of those of us in the land of the living.
I believe I mentioned on page one somewhere that I have not been seriously depressed so I admit, I don't know what it's truly like. But children are a reason to live. Children are a reason to live! I firmly believe this and will always stick with this. I'm Sorry you disagree, I'm not saying you disagree with that sentence, but that it sounds like when you are in the depths of depression, it may be easy to forget that children are a reason to live. I can understand that. That's why reaching out and being there for each other is so important. Compassion, support, love.
I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?
Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.
Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.
I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?
Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.
Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.
But how?
I honestly want to know.
If any of us knew the answer, we would be filthy rich.
I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?
Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.
Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.
But how?
I honestly want to know.
If any of us knew the answer, we would be filthy rich.
I think Last12Exit did a good job at helping; a good friend willing to do what has to be done to help a friend in need. I agree about the meds, they may not help at all. Community involvement, volunteering, just being around them more often, listening. Maybe Benjs can help with some ideas too? What do you think?
I think Last12Exit did a good job at helping; a good friend willing to do what has to be done to help a friend in need. I agree about the meds, they may not help at all. Community involvement, volunteering, just being around them more often, listening. Maybe Benjs can help with some ideas too? What do you think?
Absolutely - he got the ball rolling (damned sports metaphors ) and it takes balls (oy!) to take such action at the risk of that person hating you for it, even if temporarily - which I hope it is for him. I just wonder about what comes after that. Unless physically forcing one into treatment - whatever that even is - it would fall upon them to continue to pursue it...I would think.
I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?
honestly, not trying to argue...and i totally get where you're coming from, i really do...your feelings on this totally acceptable...you're right...how can a person with children kill themselves? it's completely illogical...and that's the point...depression just isn't a black and white thing...there isn't a cure, a pill*, something one can say...virtually nothing can be done when a person has dropped to the depths of wanting out of life...it sucks
but that's why i think it needs to be talked about more...if depression was more accepted as a sickness like, say the flu, more people might not keep their pain to themselves and less might be inclined to off themselves...there are no easy answers...i wish there were
*-obviously, there is medication that helps but often times it doesn't and leads to suicide anyway
I've asked before in this and other threads...what DOES help? Psychotherapy? Medication that works on a cumulative basis but may have horrific side-effects and not actually "work"...or zombify? Then switch to another med, keep swinging the bat till it meets the ball? Are holistic or homeopathic methods effective?
Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.
Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.
But how?
I honestly want to know.
wow to the bolded part...we are an overmedicated/undermedicated society...giving out powerful psychotropics for short-term sadness is unbelievable
as to your question, i really don't know...but i hope dialogues like this will help dispel the myths about depression and give a greater understanding of the disease
I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?
honestly, not trying to argue...and i totally get where you're coming from, i really do...your feelings on this totally acceptable...you're right...how can a person with children kill themselves? it's completely illogical...and that's the point...depression just isn't a black and white thing...there isn't a cure, a pill*, something one can say...virtually nothing can be done when a person has dropped to the depths of wanting out of life...it sucks
but that's why i think it needs to be talked about more...if depression was more accepted as a sickness like, say the flu, more people might not keep their pain to themselves and less might be inclined to off themselves...there are no easy answers...i wish there were
*-obviously, there is medication that helps but often times it doesn't and leads to suicide anyway
Regardless of my other remarks (for which I see no reason to retract) I agree with what you're both saying here, believe me! I don't want anybody to choose or succumb to suicide as a result of depression. I'm totally in favor of removing the stigma of not only depression but all mental illness- of which I have had past experience as a recipient of. We don't have stigmas against most other diseases so no need to stigmatize brain/mental illness.
I'm sorry if my earlier comments were offensive to some of you here. I care, I understand and have/have had major depression, PTSD, and anxiety disorders and the last thing I want is for someone to commit suicide.
Hedonist, as for treatment, I think it varies. For me the first thing that helped was taking Serzone but that drug has been discontinued doe to concerns about possible liver damage. Even more important for me was having a counselor strongly encouraging me to do something. I responded by putting in 1,000 of volunteer work at our local Health Library, and taking classes and eventually become department assistant for a counseling training program that focused on what we called "client centered therapy" based on the work of the department head, the work of Carl Rogers and Virginia Satire and Gerald Egan's books The Skilled Helper and You and Me.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Forcing someone into therapy. I winder what good that will do. If my friend won't go to counseling, what can be done? The person barely wants to take the meds the doctor prescribed the other day. I can't get a court order mandating this person see a therapist.
I chew tobacco. I've quit before and started back up again several times. The longest I made it was 8 months. The shortest was a couple hours. I say that because when I quit for 8 months, I was mentally ready to quit. You have to be mentally ready to do anything. If my friend is not, nothing will help.
Forcing someone into therapy. I winder what good that will do. If my friend won't go to counseling, what can be done? The person barely wants to take the meds the doctor prescribed the other day. I can't get a court order mandating this person see a therapist.
I chew tobacco. I've quit before and started back up again several times. The longest I made it was 8 months. The shortest was a couple hours. I say that because when I quit for 8 months, I was mentally ready to quit. You have to be mentally ready to do anything. If my friend is not, nothing will help.
Totally agree. Nobody can "make" you better and you can't "make" anyone better. Each person has to want it.
The hardest question on the final test to complete my Human Services Certificate was to write a response to a hypothetical client my hypothetical agency had sent to me for court mandated counseling. I passed that question by first giving the client basic empathy and then presenting an opportunity challenge for him to take advantage of the opportunity before him. Basically, that was putting the ball back into his court. He had to chose to take advantage of the opportunity or not. (Not sure how to say that without all the redundancy.)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?
honestly, not trying to argue...and i totally get where you're coming from, i really do...your feelings on this totally acceptable...you're right...how can a person with children kill themselves? it's completely illogical...and that's the point...depression just isn't a black and white thing...there isn't a cure, a pill*, something one can say...virtually nothing can be done when a person has dropped to the depths of wanting out of life...it sucks
but that's why i think it needs to be talked about more...if depression was more accepted as a sickness like, say the flu, more people might not keep their pain to themselves and less might be inclined to off themselves...there are no easy answers...i wish there were
*-obviously, there is medication that helps but often times it doesn't and leads to suicide anyway
How can you say the bolder part Norm? There IS Help, there is always help out there. Even when it's supposedly "too late". You say it's not black and white yet you say it's all black when you say Nothing Can Be Done.
You're right it needs to be talked more. Let's start with an open mind to sheer possibilities rather than saying everything is shot to Hell once a certain point of despair is reached. What is the percentage of lives saved from people on the verge calling suicide hotlines? I know some are and they're saved at the last minute.
You've made good points here, backseat...but calling a hotline or taking any other pro-action is done by the person. And thankfully that resource IS used and helpful at times.
But what happens when someone refuses help, doesn't want it?
I think norm's "virtually nothing can be done" - and note the word virtually - rings true, at least to my admittedly limited experience.
Are they just taken away against their will and it's men-in-white-coats time?
Definitely not a two-shaded deal...hopefully others come to light.
You've made good points here, backseat...but calling a hotline or taking any other pro-action is done by the person. And thankfully that resource IS used and helpful at times.
But what happens when someone refuses help, doesn't want it?
I think norm's "virtually nothing can be done" - and note the word virtually - rings true, at least to my admittedly limited experience.
Are they just taken away against their will and it's men-in-white-coats time?
Definitely not a two-shaded deal...hopefully others come to light.
Certainly, in some cases, the mind's made up. But not in all. Like Norm said, it's not all black and white so perhaps we shouldn't treat it as such. Treating it case by case and per individual is the right way to approach such a personal Hell. Rather than generalize it. Hey, I'm guilty of that too, but I personally don't believe in giving up on my loved ones if they ever experience severe depression.
I've always been of the opinion that suicide is the right of the individual. I've supported Dr. Kevorkian (I know that he assisted the terminally ill and not depression patients). I always thought that it was a selfish act but if someone felt it necessary, it's their choice.
I've formed this opinion over the years knowing (to my knowledge) nobody who has been suffering from severe depression. And knowing 2 people that have committed suicide. Obviously those two people were suffering from something. I was unaware of any problems mentally they were going through. And neither of them had a wife or kids.
Now it is different. My very close friend has a family. And children. I'm not saying this person is.suicidal. When asked by the doctor if there were any "bad" thoughts this person answered with an emphatic no. I believe this person. But depression and the mind is so powerful. That could change and that person could never tell me. How can I know if this person is having these thoughts? I could ask everyday and the answer could be the same.
I never thought I would have to go though something like this. I know this person never thought that they would. There are so many questions that I don't have the answer to. It's a scary thing. To be ignorant and naive about this. To have no control over what your mind does. To watch a person I love cry for days and not be able to help.
Thanks for the encouraging words. They are helpful. I'm glad I have a place to vent about this. I feel so confused and helpless, I can't imaging how my friend feels.
Not to derail the thread, but I just saw this on Henry Rollins' website:
AN APOLOGY
08-22-14 August 22 2014
2016 PST
For the last 9+ hours, I have been answering letters from people from all over the world. The anger is off the scale and in my opinion, well placed.
The article I wrote in the LA Weekly about suicide caused a lot of hurt. This is perhaps one of the bigger understatements of all time. I read all the letters. Some of them were very long and the disappointment, resentment and ringing clarity was jarring.
That I hurt anyone by what I said, and I did hurt many, disgusts me. It was not at all my intent but it most certainly was the result.
I have had a life of depression. Some days are excruciating. Knowing what I know and having been through what I have, I should have known better but I obviously did not. I get so mad when I hear that someone has died this way. Not mad at them, mad at whatever got them there and that no one magically appeared to somehow save them.
I am not asking for a break from the caning, take me to the woodshed as much as you see fit. If what I said has caused you to be done with me, I get it.
I wrote something for the LA Weekly that they will post on Monday.
I wanted to get this out at this moment.
I am deeply sorry. Down to my marrow. I can’t think that means anything to you, but I am. Completely sorry. It is not of my interest to hurt anyone but I know I did. Thank you for reading this. Henry
see, i knew something wasn't right with his original post...hank's a good dude
I got where Henry was coming from in his original article and sent him an email telling him the same story I wrote on page 2 here. He wrote back and basically said the gist of what he said was that suicide sucks and he wishes people would not make that choice. The responses he got obviously led him to seeing that his choice of words hurt a lot of people and for him to have the balls to publicly apologize speaks of the quality of the man's mind and heart. You're right, Norm, he's one good dude! :-)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind. I have many records, books and films featuring people who have taken their own lives, and I regard them all with a bit of distain. When someone commits this act, he or she is out of my analog world. I know they existed, yet they have nullified their existence because they willfully removed themselves from life. They were real but now they are not.
I no longer take this person seriously. I may be able to appreciate what he or she did artistically but it’s impossible to feel bad for them. Their life wasn’t cut short — it was purposely abandoned. It’s hard to feel bad when the person did what they wanted to. It sucks they are gone, of course, but it’s the decision they made. I have to respect it and move on.
This is mostly what I took issue with. I appreciate his not backtracking but being obviously genuinely sorry for how his views were received.
ever wonder if robin had schizophrenia? i have wondered this for years. i have a neighbor with schizophrenia & i've known others with this mental disorder/disease. ever see a schizophrenic person so drugged up on meds they are walking zombies. robin w. would not be robin w. with a system full of medications. fuck that
schizophenia, bipolar, depression, drug & alcohol addiction/issues.... this is a train wreck this is my neighbor down the way & a guy or two i knew many years ago & could have been robin w.
how much sleep did robin normaly need? were his disorders episodic or more constant? roller coaster bullshit - extremely happy/ suddenly extremely sad? he seems very adhd/add to me anyway (ever been a drug user & or boozer when having adhd/add or any other ? fuck.shit. piss..#$%^&*()(*&^%$#$%^& zing fart zang_)(*&^%$#@#$%^ dong*^89 ding ) mental disorder)
see, i knew something wasn't right with his original post...hank's a good dude
I got where Henry was coming from in his original article and sent him an email telling him the same story I wrote on page 2 here. He wrote back and basically said the gist of what he said was that suicide sucks and he wishes people would not make that choice. The responses he got obviously led him to seeing that his choice of words hurt a lot of people and for him to have the balls to publicly apologize speaks of the quality of the man's mind and heart. You're right, Norm, he's one good dude! :-)
and it's his apology that separates him from somebody like gene simmons who pr person wrote his apology...at least henry has the balls to answer his fans directly
When someone negates their existence, they cancel themselves out in my mind. I have many records, books and films featuring people who have taken their own lives, and I regard them all with a bit of distain. When someone commits this act, he or she is out of my analog world. I know they existed, yet they have nullified their existence because they willfully removed themselves from life. They were real but now they are not.
I no longer take this person seriously. I may be able to appreciate what he or she did artistically but it’s impossible to feel bad for them. Their life wasn’t cut short — it was purposely abandoned. It’s hard to feel bad when the person did what they wanted to. It sucks they are gone, of course, but it’s the decision they made. I have to respect it and move on.
This is mostly what I took issue with. I appreciate his not backtracking but being obviously genuinely sorry for how his views were received.
My sense is that Henry was writing from the gut in his original article and his feeling of anger at, as he said in his apology, the thing that led the person to killing them self, not the person, is what came out loudest. When I read the article, I could relate to how he felt. I can maybe even understand some unhappiness toward the person as I am unhappy with myself for having made that choice years ago (and lucky to have survived). I can even understand how, as a response to the disappointment of losing that person in the world, someone could feel put off from the work of someone who takes their life. Not that I feel that way, but I can see where someone would.
And haven't we all or at least most of us said things in the heat of strong feelings and later on thought- "well, I could have said that better"? I know I have. The diff, of course, is that most of us don't write to as large an audience as someone like Rollins and later have to take the kind of heat he did for his choice of words. In any case, to so openly and thoroughly apologize- not just some little obligatory tweet- is the mark of a good man who truly cares about how his words affect others.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Makes sense, and your last part - absolutely. As I said, I appreciate his subsequent words - they were eloquent and honest and I think quite sincere. Helped to bring clarity to what he initially wrote.
Robin Williams didn’t die from suicide. I only just heard the sad, sad news of Robin Williams’s death. My wife sent me a message to tell me he had died, and, when I asked her what he died from, she told me something that nobody in the news seems to be talking about.
When people die from cancer, their cause of death can be various horrible things – seizure, stroke, pneumonia – and when someone dies after battling cancer, and people ask “How did they die?”, you never hear anyone say “pulmonary embolism”, the answer is always “cancer”. A Pulmonary Embolism can be the final cause of death with some cancers, but when a friend of mine died from cancer, he died from cancer. That was it. And when I asked my wife what Robin Williams died from, she, very wisely, replied “Depression”.
The word “suicide” gives many people the impression that “it was his own decision,” or “he chose to die, whereas most people with cancer fight to live.” And, because Depression is still such a misunderstood condition, you can hardly blame people for not really understanding. Just a quick search on Twitter will show how many people have little sympathy for those who commit suicide…
@TateLovett thank u for being right. I love robin Williams but I think the way he died was his own stupidity. It’s sad but his own fault. — Kara Seymour (@kara_michelle01) August 12, 2014
Idk why everyone is so sympathetic towards Robin Williams. Yea he was a good actor and all but the dude killed himself. His own damn fault — Darnell (@Thathigga) August 12, 2014
Robin Williams dieing is sad but it was his choice What about the 1000′s of children dieing in Palestine that dont want to die thats sad too — TerryCrosbie (@Terry_Crosbie) August 12, 2014
But, just as a Pulmonary Embolism is a fatal symptom of cancer, suicide is a fatal symptom of Depression. Depression is an illness, not a choice of lifestyle. You can’t just “cheer up” with depression, just as you can’t choose not to have cancer. When someone commits suicide as a result of Depression, they die from Depression – an illness that kills millions each year. It is hard to know exactly how many people actually die from Depression each year because the figures and statistics only seem to show how many people die from “suicide” each year (and you don’t necessarily have to suffer Depression to commit suicide, it’s usually just implied). But considering that one person commits suicide every 14 minutes in the US alone, we clearly need to do more to battle this illness, and the stigmas that continue to surround it. Perhaps Depression might lose some its “it was his own fault” stigma,if we start focussing on the illness, rather than the symptom. Robin Williams didn’t die from suicide. He died from Depression*. It wasn’t his choice to suffer that. http://www.tomclempson.com/2014/08/robin-williams-did-not-die-from-suicide/
I hear you Norm. Perhaps rather than argue whether it's a choice or not, we could discuss ways we can help those we care about who are depressed. That's what is being missed in this opinion piece except for the bold part. Although we may continue to disagree about it being a choice, can we agree that there are ways to help these people rather than let them succumb to death by their own hand?
Dudes a grown fkn man. He's responsible for his actions.
Comments
Which you addressed above.
Are the doctors treating those with depression too quick with their prescription pads and exacerbating the symptoms? When my mother-in-law died, my husband was understandably upset, depressed, distracted, had problems sleeping. His doctor prescribed Effexor - powerful shit - for a short-term, circumstantial depression. The doctor's ease in suggesting a drug that in many causes PSYCHOTIC EPISODES scared the fuck out of me, along with accounts from those who took it.
Yes...get help, give help. Of course. We all want this.
But how?
I honestly want to know.
but that's why i think it needs to be talked about more...if depression was more accepted as a sickness like, say the flu, more people might not keep their pain to themselves and less might be inclined to off themselves...there are no easy answers...i wish there were
*-obviously, there is medication that helps but often times it doesn't and leads to suicide anyway
as to your question, i really don't know...but i hope dialogues like this will help dispel the myths about depression and give a greater understanding of the disease
I'm sorry if my earlier comments were offensive to some of you here. I care, I understand and have/have had major depression, PTSD, and anxiety disorders and the last thing I want is for someone to commit suicide.
Hedonist, as for treatment, I think it varies. For me the first thing that helped was taking Serzone but that drug has been discontinued doe to concerns about possible liver damage. Even more important for me was having a counselor strongly encouraging me to do something. I responded by putting in 1,000 of volunteer work at our local Health Library, and taking classes and eventually become department assistant for a counseling training program that focused on what we called "client centered therapy" based on the work of the department head, the work of Carl Rogers and Virginia Satire and Gerald Egan's books The Skilled Helper and You and Me.
I chew tobacco. I've quit before and started back up again several times. The longest I made it was 8 months. The shortest was a couple hours. I say that because when I quit for 8 months, I was mentally ready to quit. You have to be mentally ready to do anything. If my friend is not, nothing will help.
My god, how powerful our minds and will can be, on each end of the spectrum.
I wish the best for your friend's road ahead.
The hardest question on the final test to complete my Human Services Certificate was to write a response to a hypothetical client my hypothetical agency had sent to me for court mandated counseling. I passed that question by first giving the client basic empathy and then presenting an opportunity challenge for him to take advantage of the opportunity before him. Basically, that was putting the ball back into his court. He had to chose to take advantage of the opportunity or not. (Not sure how to say that without all the redundancy.)
You're right it needs to be talked more. Let's start with an open mind to sheer possibilities rather than saying everything is shot to Hell once a certain point of despair is reached. What is the percentage of lives saved from people on the verge calling suicide hotlines? I know some are and they're saved at the last minute.
But what happens when someone refuses help, doesn't want it?
I think norm's "virtually nothing can be done" - and note the word virtually - rings true, at least to my admittedly limited experience.
Are they just taken away against their will and it's men-in-white-coats time?
Definitely not a two-shaded deal...hopefully others come to light.
I've formed this opinion over the years knowing (to my knowledge) nobody who has been suffering from severe depression. And knowing 2 people that have committed suicide. Obviously those two people were suffering from something. I was unaware of any problems mentally they were going through. And neither of them had a wife or kids.
Now it is different. My very close friend has a family. And children. I'm not saying this person is.suicidal. When asked by the doctor if there were any "bad" thoughts this person answered with an emphatic no. I believe this person. But depression and the mind is so powerful. That could change and that person could never tell me. How can I know if this person is having these thoughts? I could ask everyday and the answer could be the same.
I never thought I would have to go though something like this. I know this person never thought that they would. There are so many questions that I don't have the answer to. It's a scary thing. To be ignorant and naive about this. To have no control over what your mind does. To watch a person I love cry for days and not be able to help.
Thanks for the encouraging words. They are helpful. I'm glad I have a place to vent about this. I feel so confused and helpless, I can't imaging how my friend feels.
AN APOLOGY
08-22-14
August 22 2014
2016 PST
For the last 9+ hours, I have been answering letters from people from all over the world. The anger is off the scale and in my opinion, well placed.
The article I wrote in the LA Weekly about suicide caused a lot of hurt. This is perhaps one of the bigger understatements of all time. I read all the letters. Some of them were very long and the disappointment, resentment and ringing clarity was jarring.
That I hurt anyone by what I said, and I did hurt many, disgusts me. It was not at all my intent but it most certainly was the result.
I have had a life of depression. Some days are excruciating. Knowing what I know and having been through what I have, I should have known better but I obviously did not. I get so mad when I hear that someone has died this way. Not mad at them, mad at whatever got them there and that no one magically appeared to somehow save them.
I am not asking for a break from the caning, take me to the woodshed as much as you see fit. If what I said has caused you to be done with me, I get it.
I wrote something for the LA Weekly that they will post on Monday.
I wanted to get this out at this moment.
I am deeply sorry. Down to my marrow. I can’t think that means anything to you, but I am. Completely sorry. It is not of my interest to hurt anyone but I know I did. Thank you for reading this. Henry
You're right, Norm, he's one good dude! :-)
I no longer take this person seriously. I may be able to appreciate what he or she did artistically but it’s impossible to feel bad for them. Their life wasn’t cut short — it was purposely abandoned. It’s hard to feel bad when the person did what they wanted to. It sucks they are gone, of course, but it’s the decision they made. I have to respect it and move on.
This is mostly what I took issue with. I appreciate his not backtracking but being obviously genuinely sorry for how his views were received.
schizophenia, bipolar, depression, drug & alcohol addiction/issues.... this is a train wreck
this is my neighbor down the way & a guy or two i knew many years ago & could have been robin w.
how much sleep did robin normaly need?
were his disorders episodic or more constant?
roller coaster bullshit - extremely happy/ suddenly extremely sad?
he seems very adhd/add to me anyway (ever been a drug user & or boozer when having adhd/add or any other ? fuck.shit. piss..#$%^&*()(*&^%$#$%^& zing fart zang_)(*&^%$#@#$%^ dong*^89 ding ) mental disorder)
a lot to this stuff
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
And haven't we all or at least most of us said things in the heat of strong feelings and later on thought- "well, I could have said that better"? I know I have. The diff, of course, is that most of us don't write to as large an audience as someone like Rollins and later have to take the kind of heat he did for his choice of words. In any case, to so openly and thoroughly apologize- not just some little obligatory tweet- is the mark of a good man who truly cares about how his words affect others.
(and, "took issue" - past tense
Also If your doing coke your an idiot.
Dudes a grown fkn man. He's responsible for his actions.