Imagine That -- I’m Still Anti-War

dancinacrossthewater

Nope. I'm talking real. The holocaust was brutal, the worst, all that. It also totally traumatized two or three generations of Jews and it's the responsibility of the younger generation to try and move beyond that trauma, as badbrains was saying

hedonist

Big difference between moving past it and getting over it. Yeesh.

Carry on, carry on.

dancinacrossthewater

At some point even the worst things have to be let go of. Otherwise there's no hope for going forward

JC29856

i just look at the number of posts by the poster, yes im profiling

dancinacrossthewater

The pit is usually too hectic and pearl jam ass-kissing for me. I'm around at RM. Wanted to speak out on this issue though.

hedonist

dancinacrossthewater said:

At some point even the worst things have to be let go of. Otherwise there's no hope for going forward

Fair enough - I get a bit prickly when "get over it" is applied to such heaviness. Of course one should try to learn, heal and evolve from it but looking back at history isn't tantamount to living in the past. I'll never lose sight of what my family went through and lost, and know I'm here today because of that horrific time.

Continue to speak out!

(and I rarely look at or care about the number of one's posts)

dancinacrossthewater

I hear you

fuck

dancinacrossthewater, why don't you actually respond to my posts instead of trying to deflect and talk about Syria? You demanded someone respond to the bullshit article you posted, and I did. Do you have anything substantive to add to the discussion on Israel and Palestine, or do you want to keep making up numbers about how somehow more Palestinians died in the SYRIAN civil war than Syrians, lol

fuck

Maybe there's something to be said about Israel's oppression of the Palestinian people being a focus when the US is the one supplying Israel with $4bn a year in military aid, as well as providing them cover in the UN Security Council. On the other hand the Syrian conflict is actually just a proxy war being fought out by many sides including Israel. If you want to talk about substantive change someone in the West can institute, it's an end to support for Israel, given that it is what has allowed this 66-year long ethnic cleansing and occupation to go on. Te tactic to divert attention to Syria is one employed by zionists as they did with Darfur years ago. It's disgusting to exploit another people's suffering to cover your own oppression, and to also accuse those critical of Israel as anti-Semitic ("you got something against Jews?!")

Show some fucking humility.

dancinacrossthewater

I said more Palestinians died in the Syrian civil war than in Gaza over the last year. That's not deflection, that's a fact. It doesn't excuse what Israel's doing, but if you only get worked up about Palestinians when something happens in Gaza, you're full of shit

foodshop65

fuck said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

Supporting Hamas in this conflict is destructive, pure and simple. They're not interested in legitimate statehood for Palestine. They just fit neatly into "heroes of resistance" narratives for people watching from across the world.

It's ironic that on one hand you seem to hint that people "across the world" should not play a role by supporting resistance (nevermind that you equate Hamas with resistance in general), but on the other hand you seem to consider yourself important enough to the point where "if people were more willing to support Fatah and condemn Hamas," you would be "more inclined to give them some credit". Oh dancinacrossthewater, how I beg you for your support! Please, tell me, what else should Palestinians do to win your inclinations? Shall we renounce any right to resist an illegal occupation, even though this right is inshrined in international law, such as in the fourth geneva convention? Shall we continue to be massacred by the thousands, by the tax dollars and support of Western governments, without doing anything in return, so that we can have your all important support? Shall we stand up and say, "You know, it's fairly obvious that none of you know much about Hamas, except what you get from western media sources (such as the false claim that they use human shields), but we condemn them because you don't like them! Please come to our rescue, O dancinacrossthewater!"

How about people in the West do the Palestinians a favor, if you truly sympathize with their struggle: 1) acknowledge that the root of this conflict is the illegal Israeli occupation, and that any resistance to it, including from Hamas is simply a by-product of this illegal occupation that only exists due to the support of your governments; 2) stay the fuck out of the business of Palestinians and their methods of resistance. International law grants Palestinians the right to resist the illegal and brutal occupation. Quit telling the oppressed how to resist. As this article rightly points out, the alternative to resistance is ANTI-resistance (the article also talks a good deal about your beloved Fatah: http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/18666/the-palestinian-resistance-and-its-enemies). Instead, once you acknowledge number 1 and 2, then you can focus your efforts on 3) demand an end to the illegal Israeli occupation, which is all Palestinian resistance movements have called for. They have not called for killing the Jews, they have not called for Israelis to leave the land. They have simply called for the 3 rights that I mentioned before. If violence against Israelis continues after Israel grants Palestinians equal rights, ends the occupation, and allows Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes, then I will be the first to condemn it. Until then, let's stick to the facts on the ground, the historical record, and how to address the root problem, rather than equivocate between oppressor and oppressed.

this is huge. well done and well put.

foodshop65

badbrains said:

I have to share this story. Someone, NOT on this board called me anti-Semite. What was his logic? He said because, and here's where I almost shit my pants from laughing so hard, MLK made a comment about,"if you don't support Zionism, then that makes you an anti-Semite." That is what I was told. So I guess all the people who dnt support Zionism are anti-Semites even tho Arabs are Semites to. Awesome

one of the best i have heard yet
classic

fuck

dancinacrossthewater said:

I said more Palestinians died in the Syrian civil war than in Gaza over the last year. That's not deflection, that's a fact. It doesn't excuse what Israel's doing, but if you only get worked up about Palestinians when something happens in Gaza, you're full of shit

So no response to my posts responding to your bullshit article? Other than the lies in that article and the outrageous lie about 133.000 Palestinians dead in the Syrian civil war (which would mean more Palestinians died than Syrians), you've contributed nothing substantive to this discussion.

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

I said more Palestinians died in the Syrian civil war than in Gaza over the last year. That's not deflection, that's a fact. It doesn't excuse what Israel's doing, but if you only get worked up about Palestinians when something happens in Gaza, you're full of shit

I know you did, and they haven't, as I've already demonstrated.

rr165892

hedonist said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

At some point even the worst things have to be let go of. Otherwise there's no hope for going forward

Fair enough - I get a bit prickly when "get over it" is applied to such heaviness. Of course one should try to learn, heal and evolve from it but looking back at history isn't tantamount to living in the past. I'll never lose sight of what my family went through and lost, and know I'm here today because of that horrific time.

Continue to speak out!

(and I rarely look at or care about the number of one's posts)

I believe the term is"Never Forget"

rr165892

JC29856 said:

i just look at the number of posts by the poster, yes im profiling

Can't do that,some peeps been members a real long time and don't post a lot.Others post all the time but are new.Cant really work with the post numbers

hedonist

rr165892 said:

hedonist said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

At some point even the worst things have to be let go of. Otherwise there's no hope for going forward

Fair enough - I get a bit prickly when "get over it" is applied to such heaviness. Of course one should try to learn, heal and evolve from it but looking back at history isn't tantamount to living in the past. I'll never lose sight of what my family went through and lost, and know I'm here today because of that horrific time.

Continue to speak out!

(and I rarely look at or care about the number of one's posts)

I believe the term is"Never Forget"

Yes, this too.

"he who forgets will be destined to remember"

backseatLover12

By definition, tribal conflicts thrive and survive when people take sides. Choosing sides in these kinds of conflicts fuels them further and deepens the polarization. And worst of all, you get blood on your hands.

Keep fighting. It just keeps you spinning your wheels, going absolutely nowhere. No one is really interested in peace for the people when they insist on choosing sides. People would rather spin their wheels than to work for actual progress, solutions and ultimately peace. Because that means actually working together and eating our stupid pride.

dancinacrossthewater

fuck said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

I said more Palestinians died in the Syrian civil war than in Gaza over the last year. That's not deflection, that's a fact. It doesn't excuse what Israel's doing, but if you only get worked up about Palestinians when something happens in Gaza, you're full of shit

So no response to my posts responding to your bullshit article? Other than the lies in that article and the outrageous lie about 133.000 Palestinians dead in the Syrian civil war (which would mean more Palestinians died than Syrians), you've contributed nothing substantive to this discussion.

If you can't see from even the last two or three pages of this thread that ethnicities on both sides of the Israel-Palestine conflict contain really traumatic histories and the only way forward is to attempt to find some common ground EVEN THOUGH Israel is currently the oppressor, I don't know what to tell you man. Your single-minded attack on Israel just isn't productive and won't lead to anything positive...it seems like you're not interested in any kind of resolution.

There's a good starting point actually - what would a resolution to the conflict look like for you - in Israel/Palestine, Syria, and Iraq, to start with 3 areas in the region where civilian rights are being violated. Please address all 3 areas and not just Israel/Palestine.

brianlux

As far as this business of telling each other "You're full of shit"... Take it, Adrian:

Cronauer: "Now, we got a special situation right now. Okay, there's a Puerto Rican waitress. She brings you a little thing of red soup. She got some tomato soup. Oh, she slips, she spills it on your brand new gaberdine pants that you paid more than a color TV for. You're a little angry, so you say to her... Minh?"
Vietnamese Student Minh: "Uh, look what you did and bleepdamn it and stupid and crap."
Vietnamese Student: "That's stupid. You don't call someone crap."
Tuan: "No, you step on crap. You don't call it to a person."
Vietnamese Student: "You can step on crap. I know you can."
Vietnamese Student: "They can be full of bleep. He said."
Cronauer: "No, no. You see, you step in bleep, you can be full of crap."
Vietnamese Student: "I'm pretty sure you can step in crap. I once saw it in a French movie."
Vietnamese Student: "How can some person look like a bleep? It's impossible."
Cronauer: "I think... okay, we can stop with the debate on the great ca-ca right now. "