Border and immigration crisis.

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  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,604
    I wonder what the Mexican governments stance is on undocumented persons traveling through Mexico.
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  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    and for the people that keep saying california was taken from mexican people......very interesting read.

    Godfather.

    Some Chicano activists will allege that the U.S. "stole" the Southwest, including California, from Mexico. A reasonable look at the history gives lie to these assertions.

    California statehood really began with the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo signed by the U.S. and Mexico. By this act, America increased its territory by two-thirds, including California and the land of six other Southwestern states, while Mexico was cut in half. In the history of our two countries, this surprisingly little-known treaty is a staggering event.

    Despite the huge amount of territory involved in the treaty, only about 80,000 Mexicans lived in the whole Southwest. Furthermore, Mexico exercised little control over the territory. It was a country in turmoil. From 1821, the end of Spanish rule, through 1847, Mexico endured 50 military regimes, five constitutional conventions, three constitutions and most of the 11 different terms of leadership under the tragic president and general, Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna.

    In addition to the political instability, the racial and ethnic cleavages in the Mexico of this era are important to understand. When Santa Anna ended his last term in 1854, it marked the end of the rule of the conquistadors' descendants, those of Spanish descent born in what was then called New Spain. Called criollos, this group ruled Mexico after the overthrow of Spain in 1821. Prior to that, from 1521, Spaniards ruled directly under the authority of the crown.

    The Spanish language and Catholic faith, perpetuated by the Spaniards and criollos, prevailed by conquest over the various Indian dialects and religions. The revolution in Mexico that began in 1810 was against Spain. It was led by the criollos with strong support from the Indians and the growing numbers of mestizos, those Mexicans of mixed Spanish and Indian ancestry. Their battle cry was "Death to the Spaniards! Long live the Virgin of Guadalupe!" It was not "Yankee go home!" nor an Aztec war cry.

    The immediate cause for the Mexican-American War was a $3 million debt to America for damages done by Mexicans to Americans. The government of Mexico had agreed to pay, but was repeatedly in default. The American annexation of Texas in 1845, independent of Mexico since 1836, and the related Texas border disputes, were additional causes. But perhaps the real motivator was America's desire for California. The Mexican government spurned a cash offer of $25 million. President James Polk and others believed that if the U.S. did not acquire California, Great Britain or others might, since Mexico was unable to govern it.

    Mexico drew first blood in an attack on American troops in disputed territory in Texas and the war was on. Less than two years later, American troops entered Mexico City and the treaty was signed. Despite winning the war, America paid $18 million for the territory. The U.S. also lost 13,000 lives, largely due to disease. And the rest, as they say, is history.

    Our constitutional democracy, the rule of law, private property rights, freedom of religion, and the other characteristics of American government have been enormously appealing to our neighbors to the South. Over the past 150 years, the moral and legal authority of the U.S. to govern the acquired territory is, by any reasonable measure, unassailable. The treaty was, on balance, a good one for all concerned. Californians should be proud of their history and the creation of a place that so many have found so attractive.

    Examiner contributor Michael Warder is vice- president of the Claremont Institute, a think-tank based in Claremont, California.<

  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    EarlWelsh said:

    unsung said:

    TSA is allowing illegal aliens on commercial flights, to be resettled around the country, without identification.

    it must be around the tomoato farms.......


    Godfather.

    What the fuck is a tomoato? Sounds delicious, Godfather.

    The Daisy.
    I read this again this morning.......crap I'm laughing again !!!!!

    Godfather.

  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,604
    edited July 2014
    Huh, so we entered into apeace treaty with one of the conquistador descendants for california and the rest of the southwest as a condition of surrender during war....

    Starts out like was a peaceful negotiation but .........the rest is history.
    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    i like illegals

    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    chadwick said:

    i like illegals

    Very profound Chadwick.

    Have had lots if both personal as well as business dealings with illegals and they are the most friendly polite family values humans I've ever met.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    callen,

    same here. they are just wonderful & work hard. they're very good people & we've all chipped in & fed some of them. i have no problem at all w/ giving a hoot about a human being who is struggling & trying, trying & struggling.

    good to go!
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    and for the people that keep saying california was taken from mexican people......very interesting read.

    Godfather.

    Some Chicano activists will allege that the U.S. "stole" the Southwest, including California, from Mexico. A reasonable look at the history gives lie to these assertions.

    California statehood really began with the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo signed by the U.S. and Mexico. By this act, America increased its territory by two-thirds, including California and the land of six other Southwestern states, while Mexico was cut in half. In the history of our two countries, this surprisingly little-known treaty is a staggering event.

    Despite the huge amount of territory involved in the treaty, only about 80,000 Mexicans lived in the whole Southwest. Furthermore, Mexico exercised little control over the territory. It was a country in turmoil. From 1821, the end of Spanish rule, through 1847, Mexico endured 50 military regimes, five constitutional conventions, three constitutions and most of the 11 different terms of leadership under the tragic president and general, Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna.

    In addition to the political instability, the racial and ethnic cleavages in the Mexico of this era are important to understand. When Santa Anna ended his last term in 1854, it marked the end of the rule of the conquistadors' descendants, those of Spanish descent born in what was then called New Spain. Called criollos, this group ruled Mexico after the overthrow of Spain in 1821. Prior to that, from 1521, Spaniards ruled directly under the authority of the crown.

    The Spanish language and Catholic faith, perpetuated by the Spaniards and criollos, prevailed by conquest over the various Indian dialects and religions. The revolution in Mexico that began in 1810 was against Spain. It was led by the criollos with strong support from the Indians and the growing numbers of mestizos, those Mexicans of mixed Spanish and Indian ancestry. Their battle cry was "Death to the Spaniards! Long live the Virgin of Guadalupe!" It was not "Yankee go home!" nor an Aztec war cry.

    The immediate cause for the Mexican-American War was a $3 million debt to America for damages done by Mexicans to Americans. The government of Mexico had agreed to pay, but was repeatedly in default. The American annexation of Texas in 1845, independent of Mexico since 1836, and the related Texas border disputes, were additional causes. But perhaps the real motivator was America's desire for California. The Mexican government spurned a cash offer of $25 million. President James Polk and others believed that if the U.S. did not acquire California, Great Britain or others might, since Mexico was unable to govern it.

    Mexico drew first blood in an attack on American troops in disputed territory in Texas and the war was on. Less than two years later, American troops entered Mexico City and the treaty was signed. Despite winning the war, America paid $18 million for the territory. The U.S. also lost 13,000 lives, largely due to disease. And the rest, as they say, is history.

    Our constitutional democracy, the rule of law, private property rights, freedom of religion, and the other characteristics of American government have been enormously appealing to our neighbors to the South. Over the past 150 years, the moral and legal authority of the U.S. to govern the acquired territory is, by any reasonable measure, unassailable. The treaty was, on balance, a good one for all concerned. Californians should be proud of their history and the creation of a place that so many have found so attractive.

    Examiner contributor Michael Warder is vice- president of the Claremont Institute, a think-tank based in Claremont, California.<

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    damn, lost my text! Short version: this is no journalistic article, its a puff piece. Most of the facts are right but his take on them is laughably naive. 16million for some of the most fertile land on the planet? And then we damn the Colorado and dry up Baja and its a "good deal" for mexico? And his take on the war is disgusting! We started that war because we wanted the land, and any casualties on our side are our own doing as a result.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    yeah that is some rich fucking piece
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    rgambs said:

    damn, lost my text! Short version: this is no journalistic article, its a puff piece. Most of the facts are right but his take on them is laughably naive. 16million for some of the most fertile land on the planet? And then we damn the Colorado and dry up Baja and its a "good deal" for mexico? And his take on the war is disgusting! We started that war because we wanted the land, and any casualties on our side are our own doing as a result.

    $16 million in the mid 1800's was a grip of cash, non the less it was paid for and a deal was made in good faith if this generation knows it or likes does not matter.

    Godfather.

  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    mickeyrat said:

    I wonder what the Mexican governments stance is on undocumented persons traveling through Mexico.

    Apparently as long as they are moving through they don't have a problem with it. Afterall it's our problem, not theirs.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    interesting. a handful of people in a nation built by immigrants wants no more immigrants. merica, fuck yeah!!!
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    That's really laughable, doesn't anyone understand the difference between legal and illegal immigration besides me?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 38,604
    Documented and undocumented. Yes there is a difference. In civil law.

    What of those who overstay a visa and remain?
    What of them?
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    mickeyrat said:

    Documented and undocumented. Yes there is a difference. In civil law.

    What of those who overstay a visa and remain?
    What of them?

    oh they gotta get out, yo.

    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    unsung said:

    That's really laughable, doesn't anyone understand the difference between legal and illegal immigration besides me?

    what is your solution?

    put children on boats and let them float back home?

    obama asked for 3 billion to handle the situation as it is currently.

    the senate has passed a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill. obama will sign it, boehner will not bring it up for a vote.

    what do you want obama to do?

    nothing? or use his executive power to do what he can legally?

    sometimes i think people want nothing to change because if it changed then they would not have anything to complain about.

    boehner can fix this situation. he chooses not to, because he had has the crap scared out of him by cantor's loss. so what does he do?? he sues the president because the president failed to implement a law that boehner voted to repeal over 50 times.

    you want to blame somebody for nothing being done, blame the house gop.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • primussucksprimussucks Posts: 2,360

    yes. it was unconstitutional.

    But when has the constitution mattered at all lately?
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  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487

    unsung said:

    That's really laughable, doesn't anyone understand the difference between legal and illegal immigration besides me?

    what is your solution?

    put children on boats and let them float back home?

    obama asked for 3 billion to handle the situation as it is currently.

    the senate has passed a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill. obama will sign it, boehner will not bring it up for a vote.

    what do you want obama to do?

    nothing? or use his executive power to do what he can legally?

    sometimes i think people want nothing to change because if it changed then they would not have anything to complain about.

    boehner can fix this situation. he chooses not to, because he had has the crap scared out of him by cantor's loss. so what does he do?? he sues the president because the president failed to implement a law that boehner voted to repeal over 50 times.

    you want to blame somebody for nothing being done, blame the house gop.

    I want the laws followed that we have.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    mickeyrat said:

    Documented and undocumented. Yes there is a difference. In civil law.

    What of those who overstay a visa and remain?
    What of them?

    They are breaking our laws. How do other countries handle it?

  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    unsung said:

    unsung said:

    That's really laughable, doesn't anyone understand the difference between legal and illegal immigration besides me?

    what is your solution?

    put children on boats and let them float back home?

    obama asked for 3 billion to handle the situation as it is currently.

    the senate has passed a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill. obama will sign it, boehner will not bring it up for a vote.

    what do you want obama to do?

    nothing? or use his executive power to do what he can legally?

    sometimes i think people want nothing to change because if it changed then they would not have anything to complain about.

    boehner can fix this situation. he chooses not to, because he had has the crap scared out of him by cantor's loss. so what does he do?? he sues the president because the president failed to implement a law that boehner voted to repeal over 50 times.

    you want to blame somebody for nothing being done, blame the house gop.

    I want the laws followed that we have.
    what laws specifically?

    there is no comprehensive plan that is currently law. there is one that passed the senate sitting on a bookcase in john boehner's office right now...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    unsung said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Documented and undocumented. Yes there is a difference. In civil law.

    What of those who overstay a visa and remain?
    What of them?

    They are breaking our laws. How do other countries handle it?

    i do not think any single conservative would bother to find out how other countries handle it, for fear that they might see that there is a better way than the "american way" in which we handle things like this.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    why don't we want illegals here ?.....well right off the top of my head I can think of 3 billion reasons...and the reason will increase by a billion a year every year after that but that's o.k. right ? because you damn "mericans" are all rich and spoiled so you can afford it.......and the laws of this land only aply to the people that can afford to break them.

    Godfather.
  • primussucksprimussucks Posts: 2,360

    unsung said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Documented and undocumented. Yes there is a difference. In civil law.

    What of those who overstay a visa and remain?
    What of them?

    They are breaking our laws. How do other countries handle it?

    i do not think any single conservative would bother to find out how other countries handle it, for fear that they might see that there is a better way than the "american way" in which we handle things like this.
    If I were to go into Mexico illegally I'd be arrested immediately and sent to one of their grungy prisons for a long time. Pretty sure that's how it works in every country except this one. Thats why other countries dont have the problem. If you don't believe that then I dare you to try entering another country illegally.
    Summerfest 7/8/95
    Missoula 6/20/98
    Alpine Valley 6/26/98 & 6/27/98
    Alpine Valley 10/8/00 
    Champaign 4/23/03
    Alpine Valley 6/21/03
    Missoula 8/29/05
    Chicago 5/16 & 17/06
    Grand Rapids 5/19/06
    Summerfest 6/29/06 & 6/30/06
    Tampa 6/12/08
    Chicago 8/23/09
    Indy 5/7/10
    Alpine Valley x2 2011
    Wrigley 2013
    Milwaukee 14
    Telluride 16
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    Look at the Marine that's been locked up in Mexico for accidentally crossing the border. I wonder why Obama isn't getting him freed? Wait, I know, that would work against his agenda. I mean considering the circumstances and all, couldn't go to battle for that guy.
  • why don't we want illegals here ?.....well right off the top of my head I can think of 3 billion reasons...and the reason will increase by a billion a year every year after that but that's o.k. right ? because you damn "mericans" are all rich and spoiled so you can afford it.......and the laws of this land only aply to the people that can afford to break them.

    Godfather.

    List a few of those three billion reasons, Godfather.

    You don't think they can contribute in meaningful ways? Do you actually think these people are sacrificing their world at great risk so they can enjoy a 'free ride'?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504

    why don't we want illegals here ?.....well right off the top of my head I can think of 3 billion reasons...and the reason will increase by a billion a year every year after that but that's o.k. right ? because you damn "mericans" are all rich and spoiled so you can afford it.......and the laws of this land only aply to the people that can afford to break them.

    Godfather.

    List a few of those three billion reasons, Godfather.

    You don't think they can contribute in meaningful ways? Do you actually think these people are sacrificing their world at great risk so they can enjoy a 'free ride'?
    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ X every year the tax payers support these people, it wont stop with just this issue happening now,once the flood gates are open (by obama) they will keep coming in hords,it will be a field day for the cartels..they'll be opening new shops in the states and murder and drug sales will sky rocket adding to our already over crowded prison system and and more $$$$$$$$ to deal with just that issue...look what happened to Florida in the 70's when Castro sent everybody by boat to Miami, it's nice to have a good heart but people also need to think about the long term.

    Godfather.

  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    unsung said:

    Look at the Marine that's been locked up in Mexico for accidentally crossing the border. I wonder why Obama isn't getting him freed? Wait, I know, that would work against his agenda. I mean considering the circumstances and all, couldn't go to battle for that guy.

    probably because you conservatives would crucify him after what happened with the bergdhal guy that you all believe should still be in custody..
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303

    unsung said:

    mickeyrat said:

    Documented and undocumented. Yes there is a difference. In civil law.

    What of those who overstay a visa and remain?
    What of them?

    They are breaking our laws. How do other countries handle it?

    i do not think any single conservative would bother to find out how other countries handle it, for fear that they might see that there is a better way than the "american way" in which we handle things like this.
    If I were to go into Mexico illegally I'd be arrested immediately and sent to one of their grungy prisons for a long time. Pretty sure that's how it works in every country except this one. Thats why other countries dont have the problem. If you don't believe that then I dare you to try entering another country illegally.
    why would i want to go to mexico illegally?? why would i want to cross that border illegally?

    mexico was not built on "give me tired, your poor," etc. we have a fucking statue/monument that states it. if you don't like it, maybe we should stop advertising it on a world famous monument?? you know, just sandblast the text off of there or something.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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