America's Gun Violence

tbergs

PJ_Soul said:

Out of curiosity, I checked on that. No, Adam Lanza didn't attend private school. He attended public school (including Sandy Hook) for years, and then a public Intermediate school, and then home schooling, which seems to be when he got really weird. Doesn't say much for home schooling! Although in all fairness to his mother, perhaps she chose to home-school him because he was acting all fucked up, and not the other way around.
(I do admit that I think home schooling is fucking weird unless absolutely necessary)

Why do you think home schooling is weird? I think a lot of the preconceived stigmas of homeschool kids has come from TV, movies or the families that gain notoriety in the media, which in truth aren't homeschooling, just deviant parents, but claim homeschool so they can prevent their kids from drawing attention to human services.

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

The public school system is required to make quite significant efforts to educate children in their catchment area. It isn’t easy to expel a child and many steps need to be taken first, whereas a private school is not compelled to take those steps at all. 

But private schools don't just toss students willy-nilly. They do actually put an effort in to correct problematic behaviour. Expulsion is a last resort for them as well. Yes, they are compelled to take those steps, just for different reasons (reputation/political/$$$$/giving a shit).

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

Halifax2TheMax

Makes you gun nutters proud, don’t it? Shouldn’t he be arrested for threats of violence? He could shoot up a school. Or kill his opponent.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/20/kentucky-republican-candidate-shooting-congressman-john-yarmuth-nra-stance/441812002/

my2hands

Halifax2TheMax said:

Makes you gun nutters proud, don’t it? Shouldn’t he be arrested for threats of violence? He could shoot up a school. Or kill his opponent.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/20/kentucky-republican-candidate-shooting-congressman-john-yarmuth-nra-stance/441812002/

And of course the coward apogizes and asks for forgiveness... a lot of fake tough guys these days, the GOP seems to have the market cornered 

Halifax2TheMax

my2hands said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Makes you gun nutters proud, don’t it? Shouldn’t he be arrested for threats of violence? He could shoot up a school. Or kill his opponent.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/20/kentucky-republican-candidate-shooting-congressman-john-yarmuth-nra-stance/441812002/

And of course the coward apogizes and asks for forgiveness... a lot of fake tough guys these days, the GOP seems to have the market cornered 

But did you hear the dog whistle. I did.

my2hands

Halifax2TheMax said:

my2hands said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Makes you gun nutters proud, don’t it? Shouldn’t he be arrested for threats of violence? He could shoot up a school. Or kill his opponent.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/20/kentucky-republican-candidate-shooting-congressman-john-yarmuth-nra-stance/441812002/

And of course the coward apogizes and asks for forgiveness... a lot of fake tough guys these days, the GOP seems to have the market cornered 

But did you hear the dog whistle. I did.

Im not a bullet sponge for just anybody 

Halifax2TheMax

my2hands said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

my2hands said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Makes you gun nutters proud, don’t it? Shouldn’t he be arrested for threats of violence? He could shoot up a school. Or kill his opponent.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/2018/03/20/kentucky-republican-candidate-shooting-congressman-john-yarmuth-nra-stance/441812002/

And of course the coward apogizes and asks for forgiveness... a lot of fake tough guys these days, the GOP seems to have the market cornered 

But did you hear the dog whistle. I did.

Im not a bullet sponge for just anybody 

You heard it too!

mace1229

josevolution said:

So can someone answer why these events never happen in private schools but always in public schools ..

There's obvious differences that can easily explain that.
Only 10% of kids are in private schools
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-jennings/proportion-of-us-students_b_2950948.html

SO all things being equal, you would expect 90% of school shootings to be public.
I think that is enough to explain it right there. But then you can also look into things like demographics of those kids, the types of famlies and so on. Violence in general is increased in kids from broken homes. I haven't looked into it, but I would guess fewer private school kids come from broken homes and have the resources to get help.
I don't see how the school itself, what a private school does or doesn't do, or "slipping through the cracks" that others suggested has anything to do with it.
When one group holds 90% of the population, they are going to have most of the problems too.

mrussel1

mace1229 said:

josevolution said:

So can someone answer why these events never happen in private schools but always in public schools ..

There's obvious differences that can easily explain that.
Only 10% of kids are in private schools
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-jennings/proportion-of-us-students_b_2950948.html

SO all things being equal, you would expect 90% of school shootings to be public.
I think that is enough to explain it right there. But then you can also look into things like demographics of those kids, the types of famlies and so on. Violence in general is increased in kids from broken homes. I haven't looked into it, but I would guess fewer private school kids come from broken homes and have the resources to get help.
I don't see how the school itself, what a private school does or doesn't do, or "slipping through the cracks" that others suggested has anything to do with it.
When one group holds 90% of the population, they are going to have most of the problems too.

Right, it's statistical of course.  
Second, parents of private school children are far more likely to be engaged in their child's lives than public school (as a %).  I don't have any data to support it, but it makes practical sense since they are paying for school.  I have to believe they would be more tuned into their kids' lives and warning signs.  

unsung

oftenreading said:

unsung said:

I guess that good guy theory works.

Wait, but these were essentially cops. I thought you were anti-cop? 

So hard to keep your line of thinking straight. 

Only for those that can't understand the difference between protecting children and "protecting children".

Thinking must be tough when you believe a sign stops bad people, that you will ever ban something and get compliance, and that there are infinite genders.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

unsung said:

oftenreading said:

unsung said:

I guess that good guy theory works.

Wait, but these were essentially cops. I thought you were anti-cop? 

So hard to keep your line of thinking straight. 

Only for those that can't understand the difference between protecting children and "protecting children".

Thinking must be tough when you believe a sign stops bad people, that you will ever ban something and get compliance, and that there are infinite genders.

Your last statement isn't really congruent with your other statements. 

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

Halifax2TheMax

unsung said:

oftenreading said:

unsung said:

I guess that good guy theory works.

Wait, but these were essentially cops. I thought you were anti-cop? 

So hard to keep your line of thinking straight. 

Only for those that can't understand the difference between protecting children and "protecting children".

Thinking must be tough when you believe a sign stops bad people, that you will ever ban something and get compliance, and that there are infinite genders.

Triggered. Again.

mrussel1

unsung said:

oftenreading said:

unsung said:

I guess that good guy theory works.

Wait, but these were essentially cops. I thought you were anti-cop? 

So hard to keep your line of thinking straight. 

Only for those that can't understand the difference between protecting children and "protecting children".

Thinking must be tough when you believe a sign stops bad people, that you will ever ban something and get compliance, and that there are infinite genders.

What happens if you don't speak or think in quotes?  

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

So is their protocol. They are able to demand and enforce tighter behaviour. Simply put: they don't have to tolerate as much poor behaviour as public schools do.

Halifax2TheMax

unsung said:

oftenreading said:

unsung said:

I guess that good guy theory works.

Wait, but these were essentially cops. I thought you were anti-cop? 

So hard to keep your line of thinking straight. 

Only for those that can't understand the difference between protecting children and "protecting children".

Thinking must be tough when you believe a sign stops bad people, that you will ever ban something and get compliance, and that there are infinite genders.

Cool! Who knew? Can you give us the first ten?

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

So is their protocol. They are able to demand and enforce tighter behaviour. Simply put: they don't have to tolerate as much poor behaviour as public schools do.

What are we even debating here? I think your last point was also my point. Did you read my initial post about this?

mace1229

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

I would agree more with 30.
It is so much easier to expel a student at a private school. It is incredibly difficult at a public school today.
A private school with a high enrollment and wait list can and do expel kids even for grades. My wife went to a private school (she hated it) it was an extremely strict Christian school. They had a demerit system, and at a certain point you got expelled. You got demerits for wearing jeans, she actually knows several people who were expelled their senior year for something that stupid. You got demerits for being tardy to class. She told me one day her friend built up enough small demerits from things like that, and one day showed up in jeans and got expelled.  I think drugs and alcohol was an immediate expulsion. Now kids can deal and do drugs at public school and get a 3-day suspension for it.
Unfortunately public schools are forced to keep problem kids all the time. It actually is a major problem, how difficult it is to expel a student and how tolerant public schools have become of behavior, even violent behavior. 
Private schools who struggle for enrollment are probably a lot more tolerant, but there are many that are not.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

I have no idea, but to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible for a private school to house a monster, lol. Of course any school can have a psychopath as a student, or an extremely troubled or abused student, or a mentally ill student. I'm just saying that the chances of a school shooter coming out of a private school (and thus shooting up a private school) are much, much smaller for the reasons I mentioned. Far fewer kids slip through the cracks at private schools.

Fewer may “slip through the cracks”, but I think it’s fair to say that private schools expel most of the kids with any significant behavioural issues. They aren’t required to try to educate these kids, the way that public schools are. I don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all, because there’s a large selection bias. 

Where are you getting  that info? Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I would guess that most private school kids who are expelled end up at another private school.

Not true.

A kid can be expelled from a school, but it takes a lot of 'incidents' before that occurs.

There's a thing called 'progressive discipline' which allows for a lot of really poor behaviour. And I mean really poor behaviour. Administrators cannot exercise judgement- they've been rendered useless.

With that said, a major episode can expedite the process somewhat... but a 'major episode' is usually something that damages somebody.

No, it is true, if you read what I actually said. I know about progressive discipline and acknowledge it. My point was that private schools do it too. It's just that their motives for doing it are different.

So is their protocol. They are able to demand and enforce tighter behaviour. Simply put: they don't have to tolerate as much poor behaviour as public schools do.

What are we even debating here? I think your last point was also my point. Did you read my initial post about this?

Yes.

You stated this: Public schools expel kids all the time - no school is forced to keep a problem kid at the school. I'm saying that isn't true.

I'm saying that public schools are forced to keep problem kids at their school and have very little leverage to demand proper behaviour. As a result (and among many items relevant to this fact that I don't wish to understate), chronic bullies torment good kids on a daily basis and teachers become exasperated dealing with poor behaviours that don't quite cross the line for administrative referral.