America's Gun Violence

mrussel1

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mrussel1 said:

Those 17 children lost ALL their rights so that a small % can retain their right to these weapons of war.  Seems a little fucked up.  

At which the FBI dropped the ball and the guard became a coward so there is PLENTY of blame to be thrown around.

So did the children of Sandy Hook, the people in Las Vegas, Pulse, etc. 

I can revisit what went wrong there too if you'd like but I'd rather stay on topic here because we've talked about them already.

What it shows is that there is consistent, persistent control failure.  We think we have controls (tip lines, FBI call centers, Baker Act, gun cabinets), the list goes on and on.  Yet the controls fail.  When the controls fail time and again, you go back and re-think your entire philosophy of how you are trying to manage the situation, whatever it is.  The fact that you can point to break downs in the system in every situation, tells me you go to the root.  It's the semi-automatic.  This won't solve gun violence, but it certainly will reduce the scale of it.  

The Juggler

PJPOWER said:

The Juggler said:

PJPOWER said:

tbergs said:

Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?

If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?

How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.

You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?

Nothing on your analogy not working out?

mrussel1

PJPOWER said:

The Juggler said:

PJPOWER said:

tbergs said:

Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?

If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?

How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.

You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?

Not me... but maybe that's the difference.  I believe that handling a gun in a high stress situation is an actual specialized skill that needs to be trained and practiced consistently.  It's not something can do along with the core skills in their existing jobs.  I think these people become just as dangerous in a chaos situation.  

rgambs

brianlux said:

The Juggler said:

Gern Blansten said:

mrussel1 said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

The Juggler said:

rgambs said:

Ok, a teacher sacrifices his life to save students and a security cop cowered outside and the conclusion you draw is ass-backwards.
The lesson I'm hearing is that if the security cop didn't save the day a teacher never could...uh. 
DUH!  A teacher did!!!  How can you ignore such a doublethink??

Is this in response to me? I'm not sure I follow

No, a general response to mruss and my2hands and a few others who are using the cops cowardice to justify their feelings that teachers shouldn't be armed, even though a teacher laid his life on the line, unarmed.

Are you for arming teachers then?

I am for allowing physically fit and emotionally stable teachers to arm themselves voluntarily under strict guidelines and supervision if they have passed a thorough vetting, testing, and training program which would be an abbreviated version of police academy standards.

My point was, how can we expect a teacher to hunt down the shooter when a trained cop was unwilling to do it.  There's a difference between protecting the children (which too many teachers have done) and acting as a tactical response unit.  I'm very supportive of having armed police in the school.  My children's district already has cops in schools.  But they train full time for these situations.  Teachers do not.  
My wife and I agree that if teachers are armed in our school, they will be home schooled.  

Exactly.

There will always be some teachers that love the idea of being armed at school but most of these people just want to teach.  They have enough responsibility with that position.  Requiring them to go through training to ward off assault weapon fire is beyond their job descriptions.

All this talk is going on while tRump and his band of idiot republicans are trying to cut education budgets wherever possible.

I can't believe some people support this idea. It just seems to crazy to me. Teachers are underpaid to begin with, now we are going to bestow upon some of them the duty of protecting the entire school, in addition to educating these kids?

How are we going to pay for that?

How is the training going to be handled?

What about the insurance/liability implications for having armed teachers walking around school grounds?

How soon before some kid accidentally gets their hands on their teacher's loaded gun at school?

This isn't even putting a band on the problem....to me this is pouring gasoline on a fire.

The rest of the world is laughing at us.

Exactly!  Or shaking their heads in disbelief.

It blows my mind that people are actually suggested that arming teachers is the solution to the problem.  What kind of world do these people want to live in?  That kind of thinking is a direct line to "Let's just let everybody  have guns and see who is left standing".  If that's the kind of world we want then I'm damn glad I'm getting old because I want no part of it.  But then, I have nieces and nephews and grand nieces and nephews and godchildren and grand-godchildren and I don't want that world for them either so America, cool it with your obsession with guns.  It's NOT making the world a better place.

It's not the world we want to live in, it's the world we already do live in.

PJPOWER

The Juggler said:

PJPOWER said:

The Juggler said:

PJPOWER said:

tbergs said:

Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?

If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?

How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.

You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?

Nothing on your analogy not working out?

Whaaa?

The Juggler

https://deadspin.com/jonathan-martin-taken-into-custody-after-threatening-in-1823275206

OnWis97

mrussel1 said:

PJPOWER said:

The Juggler said:

PJPOWER said:

tbergs said:

Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?

If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?

How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.

You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?

Not me... but maybe that's the difference.  I believe that handling a gun in a high stress situation is an actual specialized skill that needs to be trained and practiced consistently.  It's not something can do along with the core skills in their existing jobs.  I think these people become just as dangerous in a chaos situation.  

Flying a plane is a very special skill, too.  I am sure there is no shortage of people who possess both, though.

mrussel1

OnWis97 said:

mrussel1 said:

PJPOWER said:

The Juggler said:

PJPOWER said:

tbergs said:

Leaving it up to someone with a gun to stop a shooter, or shooters, is a crapshoot. You can get a hero type who would lay down their life when unarmed, a loose cannon type like a George Zimmerman that may shoot someone they perceived as a threat or a licensed cop milking his/her retirement who isn't in the least bit interested in taking on someone with an assault rifle. None of them are a solution to making schools safer. They're feel good responses from people who have seen too many movies where the good guy always wins under pressure. Focusing on the idea of arming more people allows for nothing to change while people get a false sense of security.

If all airports did after 9/11 was allow more "good guys" to carry guns on planes would that have been an acceptable solution to anyone here?

If I remember correctly, most airlines started putting armed air marshals on planes after 911...now why do you think they would do that?

How would that be the same thing as arming teachers? Wouldn't this analogy work for you more if they started arming flight attendants? Air marshals = security guard/cop in school.

You know what else happened after 9/11? They banned the weapon the terrorists used to seize control of the planes....

I would be okay with airlines arming pilots and even if the flight attendants had access to a vault with a pistol carrying frangible ammunition, u?

Not me... but maybe that's the difference.  I believe that handling a gun in a high stress situation is an actual specialized skill that needs to be trained and practiced consistently.  It's not something can do along with the core skills in their existing jobs.  I think these people become just as dangerous in a chaos situation.  

Flying a plane is a very special skill, too.  I am sure there is no shortage of people who possess both, though.

I seriously doubt there are teacher or pilots that spend full time training to be a pilot/teacher AND tactical shooter response.  It's not possible.  

unsung

Those gun expert students...

http://www.miamiherald.com/article201604224.html

unsung

Kat said:

I think the Second Amendment should be followed exactly as the Founding Fathers intended. Everyone with a modern gun should turn it in and get a musket exactly like the ones the FF were talking about when that amendment was written. That will take care of assault rifles.

Here's hoping the insanity will stop.

Where is the word musket?

The Juggler

unsung said:

Those gun expert students...

http://www.miamiherald.com/article201604224.html

They're not students. They're actors, right?

mrussel1

unsung said:

Those gun expert students...

http://www.miamiherald.com/article201604224.html

Those geniuses in LA.  The South will rise again...

oftenreading

unsung said:

Those gun expert students...

http://www.miamiherald.com/article201604224.html

 Not getting your point here. Nowhere does it say that they were confused about whether it was a gun or not; just that they were talking about whether there was a resemblance and then one of them made a comment that was perceived as a threat. Since we don’t know what the comment was, it’s pure speculation as to whether it was a threat or not. 

I could take a wild guess - say, maybe one kid said “we’ll, I’ll show you what a gun really looks like”. 

Who knows? You certainly don’t, nor do I. 

Smellyman

 

unsung said:

Kat said:

I think the Second Amendment should be followed exactly as the Founding Fathers intended. Everyone with a modern gun should turn it in and get a musket exactly like the ones the FF were talking about when that amendment was written. That will take care of assault rifles.

Here's hoping the insanity will stop.

Where is the word musket?

unsung

That is why I need a firearm, and I will make the decision on which to protect my family with.

Cowards.

Maybe we can get retired military to stand in as guards so the police don't cry themselves to sleep at night.


https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw

unsung

riley540

CNN reported today that there were 4 armed officers outside of the school that didn’t go inside. Family members of the shooter reported to the same police force that the shooter should be disarmed and that he might be planning a shooting. 

CNN saying this. Not a right wing source. This police force dropped the ball hard, and they should all be fired. 

dignin

tbergs said:

Hey unsung, here's one I'm surprised you haven't been ragging on. Student is providing fake information about scripted questions from CNN.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html

Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

http://uk.businessinsider.com/parkland-shooting-survivors-family-shops-doctored-cnn-emails-to-media-2018-2

my2hands

dignin said:

tbergs said:

Hey unsung, here's one I'm surprised you haven't been ragging on. Student is providing fake information about scripted questions from CNN.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html

Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

http://uk.businessinsider.com/parkland-shooting-survivors-family-shops-doctored-cnn-emails-to-media-2018-2

Real classy people

tbergs

my2hands said:

dignin said:

tbergs said:

Hey unsung, here's one I'm surprised you haven't been ragging on. Student is providing fake information about scripted questions from CNN.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html

Parkland shooting survivor's family shops doctored emails with CNN to media outlets

http://uk.businessinsider.com/parkland-shooting-survivors-family-shops-doctored-cnn-emails-to-media-2018-2

Real classy people

Our lying president should be sued for libel. He spreads lies and conspiracies with no consequence. It's bullshit.