America's Gun Violence

PJ_Soul

Smellyman said:

Trigger happy cop shoots man at his own home who was simply a victim of a prank call.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/01/mother-of-swatting-victim-wants-cop-criminally-charged-for-shooting/

Good god. Obviously the swatter caller should also be charged, but yeah, absolutely this cop should be charged with murder. Apparently now, all someone has to do to get killed by a cop is make ANY move other than what the cop says, never mind that the person may be totally confused, can't hear the instructions, or freaking out for a good reason. It's insane. Some of these cops really are fucking trigger happy - I don't see how someone can possibly say otherwise when it comes to stories like these. And swatting is a well-known thing now; you'd think cops would always consider it as a possibility at this point when they get such phone calls, and be appropriately cautious when responding.

mace1229

I could be wrong (it happened once before) but I always thought a murder charge required some malice or criminal intent. Which I believe was one of the reasons the cop in the Shriver case was found not guilty of murder.
Not that in either case the cop did the right thing, but if that is a requirement for murder I could see manslaughter could be a more fitting charge.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

No mention of the dipshit making the bogus call.

Where does he sit in all this?

Smellyman

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

No mention of the dipshit making the bogus call.

Where does he sit in all this?

They linked it in the article.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/after-swatting-death-in-kansas-25-year-old-arrested-in-los-angeles/

tbergs

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

rgambs

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

I think if it was your son who was dead for no reason of his own doing, you would probably think it was police abuse.

HughFreakingDillon

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

well, based on what the article said (not saying it is 100% true), the victim lowered his hands. the cop saw no gun. no weapon at all. are they trained to shoot at each twitch of a muscle? aren't they supposed to actually see a fucking gun?

the swatter should be charged with criminally negligent homicide. his actions directly lead to the death of an innocent person. with how big gaming is, and how fast it continues to grow, they need to nip this in the bud, and FAST. 

mace1229

HughFreakingDillon said:

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

well, based on what the article said (not saying it is 100% true), the victim lowered his hands. the cop saw no gun. no weapon at all. are they trained to shoot at each twitch of a muscle? aren't they supposed to actually see a fucking gun?

the swatter should be charged with criminally negligent homicide. his actions directly lead to the death of an innocent person. with how big gaming is, and how fast it continues to grow, they need to nip this in the bud, and FAST. 

Definitely not at a twitch of a muscle. But I think there is a lot of gray area. I believe the cop just has to provide he was justified in fearing for life of great harm. I think you can prove that without seeing a weapon.
Maybe he was given bad information and thought he was armed. Maybe this guy is 100 lbs heaver and looks like he;s on steroids and you know youd lose a fist fight and probably your gun too when he charges. Maybe he's making movements that are consistent with someone who carries. 
I'm not saying those scenarios apply to this case, just responding to your comment that they need to actually see a gun. It is obviously a lot easier to prove it was justified if there is a gun or weapon, but I don't think a lack of one automatically disqualifies it from being justified. 

HughFreakingDillon

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

well, based on what the article said (not saying it is 100% true), the victim lowered his hands. the cop saw no gun. no weapon at all. are they trained to shoot at each twitch of a muscle? aren't they supposed to actually see a fucking gun?

the swatter should be charged with criminally negligent homicide. his actions directly lead to the death of an innocent person. with how big gaming is, and how fast it continues to grow, they need to nip this in the bud, and FAST. 

Definitely not at a twitch of a muscle. But I think there is a lot of gray area. I believe the cop just has to provide he was justified in fearing for life of great harm. I think you can prove that without seeing a weapon.
Maybe he was given bad information and thought he was armed. Maybe this guy is 100 lbs heaver and looks like he;s on steroids and you know youd lose a fist fight and probably your gun too when he charges. Maybe he's making movements that are consistent with someone who carries. 
I'm not saying those scenarios apply to this case, just responding to your comment that they need to actually see a gun. It is obviously a lot easier to prove it was justified if there is a gun or weapon, but I don't think a lack of one automatically disqualifies it from being justified. 

true enough. I agree with you. I can only go by the information provided, and when they said "moving to lower his arms", that seems a bit premature to fire at the guy. Totally depends on where his arms were at, how fast they were moving, where they were moving to, his demeanor, etc etc. Again, I totally understand the position cops are in. Split second decisions can mean your life. 

josevolution

Degeneratefk said:

josevolution said:

This issue is the biggest waste of time people just need to move on this is an issue we will have to deal with again & again , massacres are just part of our culture it’s in our DNA ..

That's a sad commentary. Because 20 years ago (columbine) massacres were NOT PART of our DNA. I hate that we are all now desensitized to it and actually almost expect them once every couple of months.  It's sickening.

I hear you it’s truly sad but you see how it works every couple of months a mass shooting happens we all get upset and the cycle starts like chasing our tails ..I’m sick of debating !

PJ_Soul

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

I don't understand how you don't think he's trigger happy when all the victim had to do for the cop to shoot him is lower his hands for a sec. He saw no gun or any other weapon (because there wasn't one). A cop who kills someone because they moved is the definition of trigger happy.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

I don't understand how you don't think he's trigger happy when all the victim had to do for the cop to shoot him is lower his hands for a sec. He saw no gun or any other weapon (because there wasn't one). A cop who kills someone because they moved is the definition of trigger happy.

unfortunately, without video, it's impossible to judge this situation fairly and objectively. there's a reason cops yell don't move or freeze or whatever. because any sudden movement can mean life or death for the cop. 

then again, this cop COULD have been a bit premature in his shot, but we can't know for sure. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

I don't understand how you don't think he's trigger happy when all the victim had to do for the cop to shoot him is lower his hands for a sec. He saw no gun or any other weapon (because there wasn't one). A cop who kills someone because they moved is the definition of trigger happy.

unfortunately, without video, it's impossible to judge this situation fairly and objectively. there's a reason cops yell don't move or freeze or whatever. because any sudden movement can mean life or death for the cop. 

then again, this cop COULD have been a bit premature in his shot, but we can't know for sure. 

Yeah, and as I mentioned before, for cops to be shooting people just because they move is absolutely ridiculous, because the person they are giving orders to may be deaf, mentally disabled, simply can't hear them, or freaking out to the point where they can't control their movements logically, they may not be in the right state of mind to be able to follow orders like "Don't move!!". That is why I think it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that shooting someone just for moving, when no weapon can even be seen, is justifiable.
I do think cops should be paid a lot more though, considering how dangerous their work is. Perhaps that would attracts more people who have better control and who aren't so freaked out.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

tbergs said:

The whole swatting situation is completely fucked up. I understand the cop made a mistake, but jesus Christ, I wouldn't call him trigger happy because he shot. Someone is dead and that cop's life is ruined as well because of some punk piece of garbage. Unless something comes out that the cop is some sort of a-hole with a history, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt that this comes down to human error and a split second decision based on the facts his dispatcher presented over the radio communication. Could this have been prevented through more training? Who knows, but I also don't think this is police abuse.

I hope the "swatter" gets properly swatted by the justice system.

I don't understand how you don't think he's trigger happy when all the victim had to do for the cop to shoot him is lower his hands for a sec. He saw no gun or any other weapon (because there wasn't one). A cop who kills someone because they moved is the definition of trigger happy.

unfortunately, without video, it's impossible to judge this situation fairly and objectively. there's a reason cops yell don't move or freeze or whatever. because any sudden movement can mean life or death for the cop. 

then again, this cop COULD have been a bit premature in his shot, but we can't know for sure. 

Yeah, and as I mentioned before, for cops to be shooting people just because they move is absolutely ridiculous, because the person they are giving orders to may be deaf, mentally disabled, simply can't hear them, or freaking out to the point where they can't control their movements logically, they may not be in the right state of mind to be able to follow orders like "Don't move!!". That is why I think it's absolutely ridiculous to suggest that shooting someone just for moving, when no weapon can even be seen, is justifiable.
I do think cops should be paid a lot more though, considering how dangerous their work is. Perhaps that would attracts more people who have better control and who aren't so freaked out.

I agree about cop pay. no question. 

but, I don't know if that's the sole reason (not that you suggested it was) for how cops react these days. there is a reason this shit happens, usually only in the US, and not other places. their gun culture, and the fear that anyone and everyone could be packing and this mentality that they just don't give a shit if they get shot back at by police. that's gotta add some "triggeryness" to the equation, at no fault of the cops. 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

There's a video link in the story.

The cops are a long ways away from the victim. They do yell instructions to the guy ("Show us your hands"... or something like that). The victim does raise his hands above his head and then lowers them just before the shot is fired. The footage is poor and you cannot really see.

It seemed like a premature shot.

But the shithead who made the bogus call... c'mon, man. I know he's been arrested, but what type of punishment is appropriate for such harmful behaviour? 

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

There's a video link in the story.

The cops are a long ways away from the victim. They do yell instructions to the guy ("Show us your hands"... or something like that). The victim does raise his hands above his head and then lowers them just before the shot is fired. The footage is poor and you cannot really see.

It seemed like a premature shot.

But the shithead who made the bogus call... c'mon, man. I know he's been arrested, but what type of punishment is appropriate for such harmful behaviour? 

I personally think that anyone who makes a swatter call that results in death should be put away for 2nd or 3rd degree murder, depending on the circumstances (maybe even 1st, if the caller can be proven to have intended or hoped for a disastrous result). Anyone who makes a swatter call that doesn't result in death should go to prison for a good long time as well. I think the cop who killed this poor man and the swatter call are pretty much two completely separate issues, although it does seem to me like something is missing as far as responding to such calls go.

CM189191

In other news, this guy was taken alive: 

A Clermont Public Works foreman is on paid leave after he was arrested on New Year's Day for allegedly threatening his neighbor with a chainsaw and yelling racial slurs, precipitating in a short standoff with Lake County deputies.

John Ratcliff's next-door neighbor called the Lake County Sheriff's Office to her Minneola home at 1 a.m. after she said her 47-year-old neighbor was in his backyard with a firearm and screaming vulgarities toward her and her family, according to the arrest report.

tbergs

Nice try Wayne, but no thanks! You picked the wrong household.

Halifax2TheMax

I wonder if he got it for her for Christmas? Maybe a Black Friday sale?

http://abc13.com/murder-suicide-at-san-luis-resort-leaves-family-of-4-dead/2912398/

Responsible gun owner until they're not.

Halifax2TheMax

Another responsible gun owner, seller, parent, place of business, gun rights lobbying group.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kentucky-school-shooting-marshall-county-hs-students-shot-today-live-updates/