Taking this logic further, if gun owners kill people, and we wish to kill less people per capita, we can reduce the number of gun owners by reducing the number of guns. Or am I missing something?
Then comes the question of "how". How do you plan on reducing the number of guns in a way that people would actually comply with? A very very small percentage of guns in regards to the total owned by civilians are actually used in crimes.
I think we should just execute the gang members that commit a majority of these crimes.
So just execute the gang members but still have the same amount of guns ok will that put an end to gangs or would more gangs just keep on populating and stepping in the place of the dead members ?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms. I posted an article a couple pages back showing how Australia's gun violence is "boomeranging" (haha) because of the criminal trade...and they are on a fucking island!
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
so would it be better that there are less gun in public to be stolen?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
A guy breaks into my house , steals my gun, uses it in a crime and I am responsible? What the fuck are you smoking?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
A guy breaks into my house , steals my gun, uses it in a crime and I am responsible? What the fuck are you smoking?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
The question wasn't where do most guns committed in crimes come from. The question was where do most gang members get their guns. The majority of guns owned by gang members are not legally owned. Firearms are tracked, typically if you are buying a gun from someone on the street who isn't going to register it, that gun was stolen.
They already do keep track of handguns. If its on a national level I'm not sure, but if it isn't, it would be just a matter of getting that information from state to state.
The assumption that your gun was stolen so therefore you are an irresponsible gun owner is also incorrect. That very well may be true, but not always the case. really only the 1000 pound gun safes tat are fireproof are a major deflector of theft. Gun locks and smaller safes designed to keep kids out wouldn't necessarily stop a thief rummaging through your house, but I wouldn't consider them bad gun owners.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
I don't think he meant you are responsible for the crime. But should be held accountable for not being a responsible gun owner. That was my take on the comment. I don't think that is always true though.
I believe you can be responsible to a certain level if it was not properly locked up and there is a minor living in your house who uses it in a crime. Now if the kid goes and kills someone I don't think you'd be charged with murder, but be held accountable for something.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
I don't think he meant you are responsible for the crime. But should be held accountable for not being a responsible gun owner. That was my take on the comment. I don't think that is always true though.
I believe you can be responsible to a certain level if it was not properly locked up and there is a minor living in your house who uses it in a crime. Now if the kid goes and kills someone I don't think you'd be charged with murder, but be held accountable for something.
Yeah but there s no law that says you have to put guns in a safe. I get what you are saying but if something of mine is stolen then whatever that person does with it is out of my hands.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
do you have any evidence of this being used against gun owners who's firearms were stolen and then used in a crime?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
i m not worried about it all as it makes zero sense. So I m the responsible owner of my car. A drunk guy steals it and rams into another car and kills everyone on board. I m somehow responsible?
No, you wouldn't be held responsible under the current laws. In fact, some states have no fault laws which basically state injured parties will immediately receive compensation for medical treatment regardless of who is at fault. But that certainly won't stop anyone from suing you for wrongful death.
But we're not talking about cars, we're talking about guns. Try to keep up. I'm suggesting that if you own a gun, and it gets used in a crime, you should be held accountable as being party to that crime. You should be happy, this way to get to keep your shiny toy. Just keep track of it.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
This attitude rears it's head on a variety of issues. For example, responsible dog owners who raise a pitbull that chews a child's face off point at the dog claiming, "It had never done anything like that before. I don't know what got into it, but it's certainly not my fault" (as they run off to purchase another one).
Well. Thank gawd it had only chewed one kid's face off.
If you raise a dog, cougar, bear, snake, chimpanzee... or some other dangerous animal that chews a kid's face off... you are responsible. It was your decision to take responsibility for the care and ownership of the animal and you neglected that responsibility which resulted in bodily harm.
If you want a gun... fair enough. But don't shrug your shoulders when it is lifted from your glove compartment and say, "Meh. What are you gonna do" as you drive over to the Big 5 Sporting Goods to purchase two more in their 2 for 1 red light special event. Be prepared to face the consequences. For example, if all guns were registered and you were only allowed one handgun... and your handgun goes missing... then you don't get another one.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
This attitude rears it's head on a variety of issues. For example, responsible dog owners who raise a pitbull that chews a child's face off point at the dog claiming, "It had never done anything like that before. I don't know what got into it, but it's certainly not my fault" (as they run off to purchase another one).
Well. Thank gawd it had only chewed one kid's face off.
If you raise a dog, cougar, bear, snake, chimpanzee... or some other dangerous animal that chews a kid's face off... you are responsible. It was your decision to take responsibility for the care and ownership of the animal and you neglected that responsibility which resulted in bodily harm.
If you want a gun... fair enough. But don't shrug your shoulders when it is lifted from your glove compartment and say, "Meh. What are you gonna do" as you drive over to the Big 5 Sporting Goods to purchase two more in their 2 for 1 red light special event. Be prepared to face the consequences. For example, if all guns were registered and you were only allowed one handgun... and your handgun goes missing... then you don't get another one.
Dude you are saying it was STOLEN! How is this on me? What consequences could there be if it was stolen? Find me one case where a gun owner was sued because his gun was used in a crime after it was stolen. This is assinnine thinking. Hell with this type of thinking let s go with the ten club: you sell your extra ten club ticket to a member on the board for face value. They in turn sell that same ticket for ten times the face value to a scalper named "Kat". They trace that ticket to your account and your ten club privelages are now revoked for life.
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
i m not worried about it all as it makes zero sense. So I m the responsible owner of my car. A drunk guy steals it and rams into another car and kills everyone on board. I m somehow responsible?
No, you wouldn't be held responsible under the current laws. In fact, some states have no fault laws which basically state injured parties will immediately receive compensation for medical treatment regardless of who is at fault. But that certainly won't stop anyone from suing you for wrongful death.
But we're not talking about cars, we're talking about guns. Try to keep up. I'm suggesting that if you own a gun, and it gets used in a crime, you should be held accountable as being party to that crime. You should be happy, this way to get to keep your shiny toy. Just keep track of it.
Do you REALLY want to use car ownership as an analogy?
Let's assume you're married. And you managed not to shoot your spouse with an accidental discharge or during a domestic quarrel. My money's on suicide, but I digress.
Now your spouse steals your car, runs a red light and gets a camera ticket. Or gets a parking ticket. You, as the owner of the vehicle, will be held responsible for those tickets until you can account for what actually happened. And if you can't, you're on the hook.
Why should this be any different than: "Sir, we found your gun at the scene of the murder and have a few questions we'd like to ask you."
Now let's take a look at the layers upon layers of laws and regulation that make that scenario unlikely. You need a driver's license. You need to take a test to get that license. You have to renew that license. You need to register that car when you purchase it. You have to register it when you sell it. You need to operate that vehicle within the rules of the road. That car has to have mirrors, seat belts, an airbag, and any number of safety features. You need to carry valid insurance on that car in the event something happens to your car, or if the driver of that vehicle causes damages to someone else.
If guns were regulated 1/2 as well as cars are, maybe we'd actually see a significant reduction in gun related violence and death.
Or do you just like to drag out the car analogy when it's convenient?
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
i m not worried about it all as it makes zero sense. So I m the responsible owner of my car. A drunk guy steals it and rams into another car and kills everyone on board. I m somehow responsible?
No, you wouldn't be held responsible under the current laws. In fact, some states have no fault laws which basically state injured parties will immediately receive compensation for medical treatment regardless of who is at fault. But that certainly won't stop anyone from suing you for wrongful death.
But we're not talking about cars, we're talking about guns. Try to keep up. I'm suggesting that if you own a gun, and it gets used in a crime, you should be held accountable as being party to that crime. You should be happy, this way to get to keep your shiny toy. Just keep track of it.
Do you REALLY want to use car ownership as an analogy?
Let's assume you're married. And you managed not to shoot your spouse with an accidental discharge or during a domestic quarrel. My money's on suicide, but I digress.
Now your spouse steals your car, runs a red light and gets a camera ticket. Or gets a parking ticket. You, as the owner of the vehicle, will be held responsible for those tickets until you can account for what actually happened. And if you can't, you're on the hook.
Why should this be any different than: "Sir, we found your gun at the scene of the murder and have a few questions we'd like to ask you."
Now let's take a look at the layers upon layers of laws and regulation that make that scenario unlikely. You need a driver's license. You need to take a test to get that license. You have to renew that license. You need to register that car when you purchase it. You have to register it when you sell it. You need to operate that vehicle within the rules of the road. That car has to have mirrors, seat belts, an airbag, and any number of safety features. You need to carry valid insurance on that car in the event something happens to your car, or if the driver of that vehicle causes damages to someone else.
If guns were regulated 1/2 as well as cars are, maybe we'd actually see a significant reduction in gun related violence and death.
Or do you just like to drag out the car analogy when it's convenient?
Your original thesis was, gun owners should be held responsible if their stolen guns are used in a crime. So yes I like the car analogy. If someone steals my car and kills four people I am not responsible. If someone breaks open my safe, cuts the gun lock/pried open the trigger lock and uses that gun in a crime, I am not responsible.
And what the hell are you talking about in your second paragraph?
Yeah, there's a crazy leap being made in terms of responsibility. If you left your gun on the sidewalk in front of your house and someone picked it up and committed a crime with it, there may be a case to be made for some sort of contributory negligence. But if someone breaks into your house, where you have a reasonable expectation of security and privacy, and steals any object (gun, knife, hammer, nail file), and commits a crime with it, there is no way you have any negligence or culpability.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I know, I know, you don't want to reduce your voting base.
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
Exactly, and these gang members are getting their guns from the same places they're getting their drugs. I highly doubt they would all the sudden jump through legal hoops created by further buyer restrictions in order to obtain their firearms.
can i asked where they are getting their guns from?
stolen, then sold illegally
1) this isn't true 2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
sorry what is not true?
Most guns used in crimes are not stolen. They are usually purchased through legal means, straw purchases, borrowed from friends, etc.
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
Again, my gun is stolen and used in a crime. How am I responsible?
With great power comes great responsibility. It's your gun and you're the responsible gun owner. It's known as vicarious liability. If you're that worried about it, perhaps there should be some sort of mandatory gun insurance. Although I'm betting it would be prohibitively expensive.
i m not worried about it all as it makes zero sense. So I m the responsible owner of my car. A drunk guy steals it and rams into another car and kills everyone on board. I m somehow responsible?
No, you wouldn't be held responsible under the current laws. In fact, some states have no fault laws which basically state injured parties will immediately receive compensation for medical treatment regardless of who is at fault. But that certainly won't stop anyone from suing you for wrongful death.
But we're not talking about cars, we're talking about guns. Try to keep up. I'm suggesting that if you own a gun, and it gets used in a crime, you should be held accountable as being party to that crime. You should be happy, this way to get to keep your shiny toy. Just keep track of it.
Do you REALLY want to use car ownership as an analogy?
Let's assume you're married. And you managed not to shoot your spouse with an accidental discharge or during a domestic quarrel. My money's on suicide, but I digress.
Now your spouse steals your car, runs a red light and gets a camera ticket. Or gets a parking ticket. You, as the owner of the vehicle, will be held responsible for those tickets until you can account for what actually happened. And if you can't, you're on the hook.
Why should this be any different than: "Sir, we found your gun at the scene of the murder and have a few questions we'd like to ask you."
Now let's take a look at the layers upon layers of laws and regulation that make that scenario unlikely. You need a driver's license. You need to take a test to get that license. You have to renew that license. You need to register that car when you purchase it. You have to register it when you sell it. You need to operate that vehicle within the rules of the road. That car has to have mirrors, seat belts, an airbag, and any number of safety features. You need to carry valid insurance on that car in the event something happens to your car, or if the driver of that vehicle causes damages to someone else.
If guns were regulated 1/2 as well as cars are, maybe we'd actually see a significant reduction in gun related violence and death.
Or do you just like to drag out the car analogy when it's convenient?
Your original thesis was, gun owners should be held responsible if their stolen guns are used in a crime. So yes I like the car analogy. If someone steals my car and kills four people I am not responsible. If someone breaks open my safe, cuts the gun lock/pried open the trigger lock and uses that gun in a crime, I am not responsible.
And what the hell are you talking about in your second paragraph?
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my position. My suggestion is: If the gun you own gets used in a crime, you should be held accountable. Whether your gun was stolen, lost, or loaned it to a friend; you should be considered an accomplice to whatever crime occurred.
You're choosing to own a 'tool' that is designed specifically to kill. That's not a small responsibility.
And it's far from making the choice to own a tool designed specifically for transportation or a tool designed specifically to pound nails that gets stolen and harm becomes of it.
You want a gun? Okay. Let's check your background. Looks good... you can have one. It comes with a caveat though: take really good f**king care of it. If it falls into the wrong hands there will be some form of consequence (a small child that shoots another small child... or a thief that took it as it lied in your glove compartment or bedside hutch).
F**K man. You want guns and you also want to operate them with impunity.
Comments
Ok fine, can we at least call it what it is?
I'm Chicago metro, all they talk about is gun violence, yet I think it's gang violence.
Does that make sense or am I misguided in wanted to address the source?
2) if your gun gets stolen and is used in a crime, you are not a responsible gun owner and should be held accountable
But let's assume most guns used in crimes are stolen - perhaps we should have some sort of national registry. That way we could keep track of who owns what guns where. This would help solve crime and hold irresponsible gun owners accountable.
The majority of guns owned by gang members are not legally owned. Firearms are tracked, typically if you are buying a gun from someone on the street who isn't going to register it, that gun was stolen.
They already do keep track of handguns. If its on a national level I'm not sure, but if it isn't, it would be just a matter of getting that information from state to state.
The assumption that your gun was stolen so therefore you are an irresponsible gun owner is also incorrect. That very well may be true, but not always the case. really only the 1000 pound gun safes tat are fireproof are a major deflector of theft. Gun locks and smaller safes designed to keep kids out wouldn't necessarily stop a thief rummaging through your house, but I wouldn't consider them bad gun owners.
I believe you can be responsible to a certain level if it was not properly locked up and there is a minor living in your house who uses it in a crime. Now if the kid goes and kills someone I don't think you'd be charged with murder, but be held accountable for something.
But we're not talking about cars, we're talking about guns. Try to keep up. I'm suggesting that if you own a gun, and it gets used in a crime, you should be held accountable as being party to that crime. You should be happy, this way to get to keep your shiny toy. Just keep track of it.
Well. Thank gawd it had only chewed one kid's face off.
If you raise a dog, cougar, bear, snake, chimpanzee... or some other dangerous animal that chews a kid's face off... you are responsible. It was your decision to take responsibility for the care and ownership of the animal and you neglected that responsibility which resulted in bodily harm.
If you want a gun... fair enough. But don't shrug your shoulders when it is lifted from your glove compartment and say, "Meh. What are you gonna do" as you drive over to the Big 5 Sporting Goods to purchase two more in their 2 for 1 red light special event. Be prepared to face the consequences. For example, if all guns were registered and you were only allowed one handgun... and your handgun goes missing... then you don't get another one.
Hell with this type of thinking let s go with the ten club: you sell your extra ten club ticket to a member on the board for face value. They in turn sell that same ticket for ten times the face value to a scalper named "Kat". They trace that ticket to your account and your ten club privelages are now revoked for life.
Let's assume you're married. And you managed not to shoot your spouse with an accidental discharge or during a domestic quarrel. My money's on suicide, but I digress.
Now your spouse steals your car, runs a red light and gets a camera ticket. Or gets a parking ticket. You, as the owner of the vehicle, will be held responsible for those tickets until you can account for what actually happened. And if you can't, you're on the hook.
Why should this be any different than: "Sir, we found your gun at the scene of the murder and have a few questions we'd like to ask you."
Now let's take a look at the layers upon layers of laws and regulation that make that scenario unlikely. You need a driver's license. You need to take a test to get that license. You have to renew that license. You need to register that car when you purchase it. You have to register it when you sell it. You need to operate that vehicle within the rules of the road. That car has to have mirrors, seat belts, an airbag, and any number of safety features. You need to carry valid insurance on that car in the event something happens to your car, or if the driver of that vehicle causes damages to someone else.
If guns were regulated 1/2 as well as cars are, maybe we'd actually see a significant reduction in gun related violence and death.
Or do you just like to drag out the car analogy when it's convenient?
And what the hell are you talking about in your second paragraph?
And it's far from making the choice to own a tool designed specifically for transportation or a tool designed specifically to pound nails that gets stolen and harm becomes of it.
You want a gun? Okay. Let's check your background. Looks good... you can have one. It comes with a caveat though: take really good f**king care of it. If it falls into the wrong hands there will be some form of consequence (a small child that shoots another small child... or a thief that took it as it lied in your glove compartment or bedside hutch).
F**K man. You want guns and you also want to operate them with impunity.
And you talk of asinine?