Chris Hedges: Americans Are Living a Fantasy

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

This a human condition not an American one. We're herd animals and we get high on acquiring.

Canadians are not above anyone with regards to such a condition. We're as bad as the next people and getting worse- we're just not under the microscope as much.

rgambs

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

im with you on this byrnzie...
It seems like all people do nowadays is equivocate...everyone is afraid to say something concrete or "paint with a broad brush"

So making general assumptions about demographic groups is reasonable? This would be a turn in attitude on this forum.

reasonable? Personally, I think so. You can't always say "i understand there are people to which this does not apply" after every statement you make. At some point, those of us who are intelligent should gather it from context. Obviously, (here i go breaking my rule on equivocation) there is a limit to how far you can go but I stand on my point...if the attitude on this forum were the basis for vedders lyrics we wouldn't have WMA, we wouldn't have Getaway, Bushleaguer, etc because they offend. Sometimes you just have to speak boldly and we are lucky Chris Hedges does so.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

im with you on this byrnzie...
It seems like all people do nowadays is equivocate...everyone is afraid to say something concrete or "paint with a broad brush"

So making general assumptions about demographic groups is reasonable? This would be a turn in attitude on this forum.

reasonable? Personally, I think so. You can't always say "i understand there are people to which this does not apply" after every statement you make. At some point, those of us who are intelligent should gather it from context. Obviously, (here i go breaking my rule on equivocation) there is a limit to how far you can go but I stand on my point...if the attitude on this forum were the basis for vedders lyrics we wouldn't have WMA, we wouldn't have Getaway, Bushleaguer, etc because they offend. Sometimes you just have to speak boldly and we are lucky Chris Hedges does so.

Is there a line anywhere?

For example, when someone becomes indignant after watching people in China abuse tigers... are you saying we should understand the context for which they refer to the Chinese as 'savages' and allow the comment to stand unchallenged or unqualified?

... or when someone becomes enraged watching a public stoning of a woman buried chest high as per Sharia Law... are you saying we should understand the context for which they refer to the Muslims as 'animals' and allow the comment to stand unchallenged or unqualified?

... or when someone becomes depressed watching a video of a Norwegian whaling ship... are you saying we should understand the context for which they refer to the Norwegians as 'scum' and allow the comment to stand unchallenged or unqualified?

rgambs

of course there is a line, that's why we all love to come in and debate where to draw it! Also these examples are nothing close to equivalent to what Chris Hedges said. He is looking at the culture of America which happens to be a generalization in itself. Should we not discuss different cultures because they paint too broad a stroke? Of course we should! we take it for granted that nobody fits exactly into any labels or generalizations and recognize there are observable tendancies which are worth noting...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rgambs said:

of course there is a line, that's why we all love to come in and debate where to draw it! Also these examples are nothing close to equivalent to what Chris Hedges said. He is looking at the culture of America which happens to be a generalization in itself. Should we not discuss different cultures because they paint too broad a stroke? Of course we should! we take it for granted that nobody fits exactly into any labels or generalizations and recognize there are observable tendancies which are worth noting...

I realize those examples are not as 'damning' as what Hedges said.

I only spoke to what appeared to me to be 'selectiveness' with regards to whom one might choose to categorize. I was not speaking to anything else.

Once again... this thread gets mired into a side discussion. It's probably my fault. Sorry.

I asked questions of Byrnzie relevant to the thread discussion that I think are meaningful questions.

I'll ask again given that they are buried now underneath petty squabbling and nobody has summoned the energy to give it a shot:

Lamenting the problems that we know exist has been done before by many people. Dispersing knowledge is an important component of a change effort, but there needs to be much more. What's the solution?

How does a country like the US correct the corporate takeover that appears to have seized it? Who is the person to lead such a change effort? Is it reality to think change is even possible... or is this simply a case of a crumbling empire- such as Rome- being destroyed by decadence and greed and eroding from within?

Byrnzie

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I never went to the Guardian and puked a 12 page essay, nor have I submitted and hour and five minute video for people to spend their day on trying to make myself seem impressive.

Yeah, that's me. You've got me all figured out. I want to make myself seem impressive.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

To the thread topic if you dare... as I asked before... what's the solution? Lamenting the problems that we know exist has been done before by many people. Dispersing knowledge is an important component of a change effort, but there needs to be much more.

The article I posted beneath the video goes some way to offering a solution, which is why I posted it - that, and my need to try and make myself seem impressive. It addresses the need for people to reconnect with the natural World, and to put down their newspapers and turn off their t.v's, and re-embrace the world of the imagination, and the world outside their windows.
If you're interested, I've just finished reading a pretty amazing book on this subject: http://www.amazon.com/The-Spell-Sensuous-Perception-More-Than-Human/dp/0679776397/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400121556&sr=8-1&keywords=the+spell+of+the+sensuous

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

How does a country like the US correct the corporate takeover that appears to have seized it? Who is the person to lead such a change effort? Is it reality to think change is even possible... or is this simply a case of a crumbling empire- such as Rome- being destroyed by decadence and greed?

As far as I can see, the solution can only lie within each individual. Maybe begin by venturing outside more often. Also, buying less stuff. Walking, hiking, and reading (. Here's another one - I've ordered it, but not read it yet, but it's a bestseller in France, and looks good: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1781682704/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

...the outdoors life, environmental activism, and an effort to understand that so-called 'primitive cultures and societies' are not as primitive as we like to think, and that they possess valuable knowledge - knowledge that's looking more and more likely to be intrinsic to our survival.

Halifax2TheMax

Ah, Byrnzie? Not to interrupt but nobody reads the newspaper anymore. You should have said, "put the devices down." And that's the truth.

Peace

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Byrnzie said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I never went to the Guardian and puked a 12 page essay, nor have I submitted and hour and five minute video for people to spend their day on trying to make myself seem impressive.

Yeah, that's me. You've got me all figured out. I want to make myself seem impressive.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

To the thread topic if you dare... as I asked before... what's the solution? Lamenting the problems that we know exist has been done before by many people. Dispersing knowledge is an important component of a change effort, but there needs to be much more.

The article I posted beneath the video goes some way to offering a solution, which is why I posted it - that, and my need to try and make myself seem impressive. It addresses the need for people to reconnect with the natural World, and to put down their newspapers and turn off their t.v's, and re-embrace the world of the imagination, and the world outside their windows.
If you're interested, I've just finished reading a pretty amazing book on this subject: http://www.amazon.com/The-Spell-Sensuous-Perception-More-Than-Human/dp/0679776397/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400121556&sr=8-1&keywords=the+spell+of+the+sensuous

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

How does a country like the US correct the corporate takeover that appears to have seized it? Who is the person to lead such a change effort? Is it reality to think change is even possible... or is this simply a case of a crumbling empire- such as Rome- being destroyed by decadence and greed?

As far as I can see, the solution can only lie within each individual. Maybe begin by venturing outside more often. Also, buying less stuff. Walking, hiking, and reading (. Here's another one - I've ordered it, but not read it yet, but it's a bestseller in France, and looks good: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1781682704/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

...the outdoors life, environmental activism, and an effort to understand that so-called 'primitive cultures and societies' are not as primitive as we like to think, and that they possess valuable knowledge - knowledge that's looking more and more likely to be intrinsic to our survival.

I came across like a smart ass. I didn't need to confront you in this thread... but for whatever reason I did. So... sorry, man.

I'll read the article tomorrow. Books are backlogged right now- adding another one to the queue would be contributing to the problem we are talking about! I'll check them out anyways- thanks for the recommendation.

I agree that in the short term and micro scale, people need to begin to simplify- including myself.

As one can surmise, fixing the problem on the grand scale is going to require something dramatic. A complete overhaul is necessary and the forces opposing such a change effort are not going to be very receptive to such a movement.

The earth might need a natural disaster to facilitate the changes necessary to move away from corporatism.

Byrnzie

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I came across like a smart ass. I didn't need to confront you in this thread... but for whatever reason I did. So... sorry, man.

No problemo.

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The earth might need a natural disaster to facilitate the changes necessary to move away from corporatism.

I believe this too. The Earth will hit back at some point. It won't be pretty, but it will be necessary.

cincybearcat

I can't watch the video at this time, but have been reading the comments here.

I think it is true that it's human nature to want to consume. I do think that America is certainly one of the leaders in this area. It's like anything good in life...once you get some, you want more.

I do also agree that this is not sustainable and we need to find a balance before a complete collapse. I know that I have times in my life where I am certainly part of the problem. My house is bigger than I need...I buy more "stuff" than I need...and I do at times get the itch to buy more to get that happy feeling that someone mentioned here. It's pretty obvious to me that it is human nature that is then influenced more by our environment....commericals, TV, all media really.

We do need to gradually scale back and change the thought of what is good. I think the whole idea of appearing successful to others is a big part of the problem. We need to build self esteem through more than possessions.

I'll check out the video when I can.

rgambs

getting back to nature is the key, yall are smart! i offer guided wilderness hikes, rock climbs, and immersion therapy for all PJ fans who wish to return to the wild. I also offer gardening and husbandry to the faithful! J/K but we are working toward sustainability and making real progress...as long as they don't frack our water.

Byrnzie

In all fairness, it was Britain that started the industrial revolution - paid for mostly by the profits from the slave trade - and that also spawned the Puritans, who viewed the natural World, and all the animals, as having been placed here by 'God' solely for our benefit. And it was these same individuals who preached that the harder we work, and the more materialistically wealthy we became, would prove our devotion to the Almighty.

Basically, we fucked it up for everybody.

So there will be surely be a kind of ironic justice at work when the British Isles becomes one of the first places to disappear under the sea, as it's predicted to do, as a result of global warming and rising sea levels.

Byrnzie

Good interview with David Foster Wallace here. He touches on some of the points raised in this thread re: consumerism, and the delusional and destructive nature of our culture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxUY0kxH80

Byrnzie

cincybearcat said:

I can't watch the video at this time, but have been reading the comments here.

I think it is true that it's human nature to want to consume. I do think that America is certainly one of the leaders in this area. It's like anything good in life...once you get some, you want more.

It's not human nature. It's learned behaviour. It's something the advertising industry feeds on. But we're not born with an urge to consume. It's a cultural thing - a modern cultural thing. You don't see tribal societies plundering their environments and hording stuff they don't need.

Byrnzie

backseatLover12 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

See the Frontline piece on the NSA that aired tonight on PBS

I saw it, it was fantastic.

Just watched both episodes.

One thing that struck me was how the NSA and their apologists keep trotting the same line about how they're concerned with protecting Americans, and how 9/11 could have been prevented if they'd had better technology, and the ability to access everyone's information.
This is bullshit.
I'm surprised there was zero mention of the 6th August 2001 Presidents daily briefing memo entitled '“Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.”

They had the info then, and they deliberately ignored it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/11/opinion/the-bush-white-house-was-deaf-to-9-11-warnings.html?_r=1&
'...Operatives connected to Bin Laden, one reported on June 29, expected the planned near-term attacks to have “dramatic consequences,” including major casualties. On July 1, the brief stated that the operation had been delayed, but “will occur soon.” Some of the briefs again reminded Mr. Bush that the attack timing was flexible, and that, despite any perceived delay, the planned assault was on track.

Yet, the White House failed to take significant action. Officials at the Counterterrorism Center of the C.I.A. grew apoplectic. On July 9, at a meeting of the counterterrorism group, one official suggested that the staff put in for a transfer so that somebody else would be responsible when the attack took place, two people who were there told me in interviews. The suggestion was batted down, they said, because there would be no time to train anyone else.

That same day in Chechnya, according to intelligence I reviewed, Ibn Al-Khattab, an extremist who was known for his brutality and his links to Al Qaeda, told his followers that there would soon be very big news. Within 48 hours, an intelligence official told me, that information was conveyed to the White House, providing more data supporting the C.I.A.’s warnings. Still, the alarm bells didn’t sound.'

mikepegg44

Byrnzie said:

He says that America has been borrowing $2 Billion a day from the Chinese, and have been for the last ten years. Is that not true?

if the Chinese gov't purchased 2 billion dollars of treasury securities a day for 10 years they would own 7.3 trillion dollars worth if my math is correct. I believe they only hold ~1.7 trillion in securities. We have borrowed ~9 trillion the last 10 years. That is 2.5 billion dollars a day total if my math is correct.

Not sure where that number comes from, but it sure seems like we do not borrow 2 billion dollars a day from the Chinese nor have we for 10 years.

Halifax2TheMax

mikepegg44 said:

Byrnzie said:

He says that America has been borrowing $2 Billion a day from the Chinese, and have been for the last ten years. Is that not true?

if the Chinese gov't purchased 2 billion dollars of treasury securities a day for 10 years they would own 7.3 trillion dollars worth if my math is correct. I believe they only hold ~1.7 trillion in securities. We have borrowed ~9 trillion the last 10 years. That is 2.5 billion dollars a day total if my math is correct.

Not sure where that number comes from, but it sure seems like we do not borrow 2 billion dollars a day from the Chinese nor have we for 10 years.

I caught that as well but haven't researched it. The reason it struck me was that when everyone was screaming about the national debt and screaming about how the Chinese owned us, I saw a chart that listed the countries that owned US debt. If my memory serves, it was still mostly owned by EU nations, Great Britain, Canada and Japan. While China's dollar amount sounds big and scary, it was a small percentage of the total. I'll see if I can find it.

Peace.

Halifax2TheMax

Here it is and I was off. My memory is getting worse. "Other foreign nations" own 19% of the total while China and Japan own 8% and 7% respectively. Mikepegg you weren't too far off with China owning $1.3 Trillion

http://www.factcheck.org/2013/11/who-holds-our-debt/

Peace.

cincybearcat

Byrnzie said:

cincybearcat said:

I can't watch the video at this time, but have been reading the comments here.

I think it is true that it's human nature to want to consume. I do think that America is certainly one of the leaders in this area. It's like anything good in life...once you get some, you want more.

It's not human nature. It's learned behaviour. It's something the advertising industry feeds on. But we're not born with an urge to consume. It's a cultural thing - a modern cultural thing. You don't see tribal societies plundering their environments and hording stuff they don't need.

They didn't fight over hunting land, etc?

I think you are wrong that it's not human nature.

Byrnzie

cincybearcat said:

They didn't fight over hunting land, etc?

I think you are wrong that it's not human nature.

Fighting over hunting land doesn't constitute human nature. It was a practical necessity. Either way, protecting your land isn't the same thing as consumerism. In the past people fought to survive - they fought over the necessities of life. Now we horde stuff that we don't need. And this hording is mostly encouraged and engineered by the advertising and marketing industries.

Big difference.