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Chris Hedges: Americans Are Living a Fantasy

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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Great article here by Chris Hedges published yesterday:

    http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/23654-chris-hedges-the-power-of-imagination

    Chris Hedges - The Power of Imagination
    Monday, 12 May 2014
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    edited May 2014
    When he uses the term "we", he doesn't mean me. Most people that I've come across who use use such big generalizations, haven't been overly intelligent....or they have an agenda and aren't speaking truth.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    edited May 2014
    First, great clip and thanks for sharing.

    First want to acknowledge know1's post. Kinda agree as it's not an American issue but rather say its a human issue. I've seen the European with his 60 mpg diesel, eating small portions, small flat come to US and buy big SUV, 4000 sq house And go to restaurants all the time.

    We all have our false realities and all juggle our lies, successfully. How we keep all these balls in the air is amazing. We are animals as well and will eat and consume till nothing is left. Easter Island will happen to the planet and we will greet our fellow human badly by justifying. We all justify. Till it hurts we will not change. I just hope, selfish as I am, and I'm no different, that I'll be gone before we completely destroy this planet.
    Post edited by callen on
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    know1 said:

    When he uses the term "we", he doesn't mean me.

    Yes, he does. He's speaking of Americans. Are you not American? Even if you didn't vote for the present incumbent, you still pay taxes that pay for Guantanamo Bay, that paid for the Iraq war, and that bailed out the crooks on Wall Street during the financial crisis, e.t.c. He's talking of America and the people who live in America. If you want to talk semantics and point out that the word 'America' itself is a generalization, then go ahead. But Chris Hedges use of the word 'we' doesn't make him ignorant or untruthful.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    know1 said:

    When he uses the term "we", he doesn't mean me. Most people that I've come across who use use such big generalizations, haven't been overly intelligent....or they have an agenda and aren't speaking truth.

    What Sean Penn says in this interview is interesting in relation to your comment. Forward to 1:50 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WRJ5Pgoc2s
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    So broad scale generalizations for Americans is okay... but similar tactics used to collectively portray the Chinese negatively in the Chinese tiger farm thread or Muslims negatively in any of the Muslim threads are not?

    Don't get me wrong... I'm just pointing out to you what I tried to illustrate before to deaf ears: let's offer good Americans the same respect we offer good Chinese people and good Muslim people.

    It is noble that Penn takes responsibility for not doing enough to keep Bush from assuming power, but it is a stretch to suggest the people who adamantly opposed Bush didn't do 'enough' to prevent him from making the decisions he did. In reality, there are countless good Americans that live alongside other Americans with ideals different from theirs.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    Byrnzie said:

    know1 said:

    When he uses the term "we", he doesn't mean me.

    Yes, he does. He's speaking of Americans. Are you not American? Even if you didn't vote for the present incumbent, you still pay taxes that pay for Guantanamo Bay, that paid for the Iraq war, and that bailed out the crooks on Wall Street during the financial crisis, e.t.c. He's talking of America and the people who live in America. If you want to talk semantics and point out that the word 'America' itself is a generalization, then go ahead. But Chris Hedges use of the word 'we' doesn't make him ignorant or untruthful.
    I think he's talking about a mindset and attitudes and not the fact that I'm forced to pay for things that I don't support like all those you mentioned.

    I can't see any possible spin that would make me not think he's painting with a very broad brush. And when you paint that way, you screw up a lot of the details.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    So broad scale generalizations for Americans is okay... but similar tactics used to collectively portray the Chinese negatively in the Chinese tiger farm thread or Muslims negatively in any of the Muslim threads are not?


    Similar tactics? Did you even watch the video? Do you even know what the criticism consists of? Nobody in this thread has accused Americans of being a 'sub-species', or 'fucking savages'.

    Stop trying to justify the racist bile in the other thread. There's no 'similarity' whatsoever.



  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    It is noble that Penn takes responsibility for not doing enough to keep Bush from assuming power, but it is a stretch to suggest the people who adamantly opposed Bush didn't do 'enough' to prevent him from making the decisions he did. In reality, there are countless good Americans that live alongside other Americans with ideals different from theirs.

    Great, except none of this has anything to do with what this thread is about. I suggest you watch the clip I posted before commenting on it.

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    know1 said:


    I can't see any possible spin that would make me not think he's painting with a very broad brush. And when you paint that way, you screw up a lot of the details.

    Great. So what details does he 'screw up'? What exactly does he say that isn't true?

    He says that America ("We") has "established off-shore penal colonies where we openly torture other human beings". Is that not true?

    He says that America has suspended habeas corpus. Is that not true?

    He says that America has engaged in warrant-less wiretapping and eavesdropping of American civilians. Is that not true?

    He says that America has built a system of unfettered Capitalism which has turned everything, from human beings to the natural environment, into commodities, for exploitation until exhaustion, or collapse. Is that not true?

    He says that America has been borrowing $2 Billion a day from the Chinese, and have been for the last ten years. Is that not true?

    He says that America has destroyed it's manufacturing base and described it an an opportunity for growth. Is that not true?

    He says that all of this has fed into an illusion of growth and prosperity, whereas the reality is that you are borrowing beyond your means, and living at an unsustainable level of consumption. And that this illusion is being fueled and propagated in a dangerous cycle, and that the illusion is sustained by a self-perpetuating fantasy which convinces people that greater consumption will make us happier. Is this not true?

  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    edited May 2014
    Byrnzie said:

    know1 said:


    I can't see any possible spin that would make me not think he's painting with a very broad brush. And when you paint that way, you screw up a lot of the details.

    Great. So what details does he 'screw up'? What exactly does he say that isn't true?

    He says that America ("We") has "established off-shore penal colonies where we openly torture other human beings". Is that not true?

    He says that America has suspended habeas corpus. Is that not true?

    He says that America has engaged in warrant-less wiretapping and eavesdropping of American civilians. Is that not true?

    He says that America has built a system of unfettered Capitalism which has turned everything, from human beings to the natural environment, into commodities, for exploitation until exhaustion, or collapse. Is that not true?

    He says that America has been borrowing $2 Billion a day from the Chinese, and have been for the last ten years. Is that not true?

    He says that America has destroyed it's manufacturing base and described it an an opportunity for growth. Is that not true?

    He says that all of this has fed into an illusion of growth and prosperity, whereas the reality is that you are borrowing beyond your means, and living at an unsustainable level of consumption. And that this illusion is being fueled and propagated in a dangerous cycle, and that the illusion is sustained by a self-perpetuating fantasy which convinces people that greater consumption will make us happier. Is this not true?

    OK - I'll grant you that I didn't take it that way originally. I heard him saying "we" and I thought he meant all of us as individuals. More of it makes sense if you think we=America as a whole.

    But there are still things that I view as errors:

    "We lived through a banana republic election in which the state supported the theft of the democratic vote"

    The shot at Christianity in the context that we're all taught the illusion that Jesus can do miracles isn't entirely accurate if you think we=America.

    The comments about us all remaining childish and not being prepared for things like house foreclosure do not seem to follow the we=America concept either.


    Post edited by know1 on
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Byrnzie said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    So broad scale generalizations for Americans is okay... but similar tactics used to collectively portray the Chinese negatively in the Chinese tiger farm thread or Muslims negatively in any of the Muslim threads are not?


    Similar tactics? Did you even watch the video? Do you even know what the criticism consists of? Nobody in this thread has accused Americans of being a 'sub-species', or 'fucking savages'.

    Stop trying to justify the racist bile in the other thread. There's no 'similarity' whatsoever.





    I'm not justifying anything... so don't twist the issue while you run from your statements.

    I'm pointing out the fact that you readily place aside your values when you refer to America or Americans. You consistently seem willing to collectively vilify them whenever the opportunity presents itself. You would deny this?

    If you would deny this... this comment would seem to suggest you may not be sincere doing so: He's speaking of Americans. Are you not American?

    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    I blame Square ENIX.
  • backseatLover12backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    Byrnzie said:

    know1 said:


    I can't see any possible spin that would make me not think he's painting with a very broad brush. And when you paint that way, you screw up a lot of the details.

    Great. So what details does he 'screw up'? What exactly does he say that isn't true?

    He says that America ("We") has "established off-shore penal colonies where we openly torture other human beings". Is that not true?

    He says that America has suspended habeas corpus. Is that not true?

    He says that America has engaged in warrant-less wiretapping and eavesdropping of American civilians. Is that not true?

    He says that America has built a system of unfettered Capitalism which has turned everything, from human beings to the natural environment, into commodities, for exploitation until exhaustion, or collapse. Is that not true?

    He says that America has been borrowing $2 Billion a day from the Chinese, and have been for the last ten years. Is that not true?

    He says that America has destroyed it's manufacturing base and described it an an opportunity for growth. Is that not true?

    He says that all of this has fed into an illusion of growth and prosperity, whereas the reality is that you are borrowing beyond your means, and living at an unsustainable level of consumption. And that this illusion is being fueled and propagated in a dangerous cycle, and that the illusion is sustained by a self-perpetuating fantasy which convinces people that greater consumption will make us happier. Is this not true?

    Call me crazy, but everything you write here is not describing Americans as individuals but the American government. So point the finger at the problem in Washington rather than the people.
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    edited May 2014
    scary stuff. i do believe the u.s. is in a fucking jam. many have their heads stuck in the sand. mostly our government is run by slick used cars salesmen. fact

    those w/ their heads stuck in the sand truly believe what they are told by their leaders. wake up folks, it's a fucking bullshit story. i've only listened & watched chris' first 5 minutes talking & i gotta say he is not full of shit or dreaming or smoking crack

    thank you, byrnzie
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
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  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Wall Street is run by a criminal class at this point.

    The decision to commit 12.8 trillion to a financial system dominated by speculators has empowered a criminal class that has not only trashed the global economy, but robbed small shareholders- many of whom are sitting in this room.

    Remember that in the 17th century, speculators were hung    .

    And...

    Acknowledge that the for profit healthcare industry is the problem and must be destroyed. It is an industry that holds sick kids hostage as their parents bankrupt themselves to save their sons and daughters.

    These comments resonate within me.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 Posts: 23,303
    "i said to myself "you better have plan b, c, d, e, f, and g, otherwise you are going to starve to death in the america. i saw that the america was going to happen to me. the america is not a place that you live in. it is a video game that you survive."

    henry rollins
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    gimmesometruth27 said:

    "i said to myself "you better have plan b, c, d, e, f, and g, otherwise you are going to starve to death in the america. i saw that the america was going to happen to me. the america is not a place that you live in. it is a video game that you survive."

    henry rollins

    Was that one of Henry's quotes while working Hollywood's parts? :ar!
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Jason P said:

    gimmesometruth27 said:

    "i said to myself "you better have plan b, c, d, e, f, and g, otherwise you are going to starve to death in the america. i saw that the america was going to happen to me. the america is not a place that you live in. it is a video game that you survive."

    henry rollins

    Was that one of Henry's quotes while working Hollywood's parts? :ar!
    It would be awesome to survive a video game with starletts chasing after you.

    The universe ...
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,047
    Jason P said:

    gimmesometruth27 said:

    "i said to myself "you better have plan b, c, d, e, f, and g, otherwise you are going to starve to death in the america. i saw that the america was going to happen to me. the america is not a place that you live in. it is a video game that you survive."

    henry rollins

    Was that one of Henry's quotes while working Hollywood's parts? :ar!
    I'm pretty sure he was indeed, Jason P. I think he mentions that in the same video which is basically a brief autobiographical video Rollins made. Making movies is part of Henry's effort to survive America. He is one hard working dude who is doing well- for which I am very thankful!

    "Hack or pack!"

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    I'm not justifying anything... so don't twist the issue while you run from your statements.

    I'm pointing out the fact that you readily place aside your values when you refer to America or Americans. You consistently seem willing to collectively vilify them whenever the opportunity presents itself. You would deny this?

    If you would deny this... this comment would seem to suggest you may not be sincere doing so: He's speaking of Americans. Are you not American?

    Cute. Please point out where i twisted anything. Then tell me where I 'ran from my statements'. Thanks.

    This thread is about the present State of the U.S, and it's self-perpetuating material consumption that's supported by a huge fantasy.
    Chris Hedges listed half a dozen examples of this, which I typed out above.

    Please point out the comparison with labeling a race of people 'fucking savages', and 'a sub-species'.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    backseatLover12 said:

    Call me crazy, but everything you write here is not describing Americans as individuals but the American government. So point the finger at the problem in Washington rather than the people.

    It's not about the government. He's referring to the culture. A culture that now exists mostly in a fantasy World that's created and nurtured by big-business and the media. The government are just one cog in this wheel.
    Not that other countries aren't also guilty of the same blinkeredness, including the U.K, and China, but the U.S, as far as Hedges is concerned, is leading the way.

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    He's basically drawing attention to a cultural disease. The same disease that effects individuals. It's the disease that tells us that if we buy something then everything will be better. Then, an hour after we've bought it, the feeling of gratification wears off, and we tell ourselves that we need to buy something else. This cycle repeats itself ad infinitum until we find ourselves surrounded by crap that we don't really need.
    This psychological illness can now be seen manifesting itself on a cultural level. Hedges takes the U.S as a prime example - a country living beyond it's means, devastating the environment that it depends on for it's consumption (while keeping the faith in a 2000 year old Middle Eastern desert religion that has zero relevance to the time we're living in), rewarding those who are robbing the country, while destroying the manufacturing base (the livelihoods of the majority of it's citizens) - all the while telling themselves that more consumption is the answer.
    He points out that the U.S regards itself as the greatest democracy on Earth, while the system is clearly anything but - a system run by, and for, big business, and which imposes it's interests on other countries by force. A country whose main export to the World is arms, and whose military budget has now entered the stratosphere. A country that preaches freedom, yet imprisons over 2 million of it's citizens, and has been waging a war on the poor of it's country - under the name of a war on drugs - for the past few decades.
    He's saying that something has to give, and he wonders if people are ready for it when it hits.

    It's not an attack on Americans as people. It's an attack on the fantasies that are fueling this train wreck in motion.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,041
    Who invited Ed Norton?

    Thanks Byrnzie for throwing this out there as while I agree with a lot that was said, I can really, at the end of the day, control my own actions and how I interface with the world around me. I'm not living beyond my means, I'm not a conspicuous consumer of material things but rather "experiences"', I vote at all levels and participate in our democracy and I try to treat others as I want to be treated as well as support the press and alternative news and media sources. You want to blame me for the current health care system or the degradation of the environment/planet and the huge transfer of wealth and corporate greed? Fine but I sleep well at night.

    And there are some on this very forum who think that elections don't matter and that we're powerless to change it. To that I say bullshit, be the change you want to see, get involved and speak TRUTH to power. See the Frontline piece on the NSA that aired tonight on PBS for an example of folks speaking truth to power. Anyway, good stuff that makes you think.

    Peace.

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  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    Who invited Ed Norton?


    :))

    I love that movie.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXMt4pKRwwY
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Halifax2TheMax said:

    See the Frontline piece on the NSA that aired tonight on PBS

    I didn't know about that. I'll try and find it.

  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 39,041
    Byrnzie said:

    Halifax2TheMax said:

    See the Frontline piece on the NSA that aired tonight on PBS

    I didn't know about that. I'll try and find it.

    It's some scary shit in that it illustrates the evilness of Cheney and how far they were willing to go as well as how the media dropped the ball. And all of it stemming from a stolen election. Elections don't matter and my vote doesn't count? Yea, right.

    Peace
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    Byrnzie said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    I'm not justifying anything... so don't twist the issue while you run from your statements.

    I'm pointing out the fact that you readily place aside your values when you refer to America or Americans. You consistently seem willing to collectively vilify them whenever the opportunity presents itself. You would deny this?

    If you would deny this... this comment would seem to suggest you may not be sincere doing so: He's speaking of Americans. Are you not American?

    Cute. Please point out where i twisted anything. Then tell me where I 'ran from my statements'. Thanks.

    This thread is about the present State of the U.S, and it's self-perpetuating material consumption that's supported by a huge fantasy.
    Chris Hedges listed half a dozen examples of this, which I typed out above.

    Please point out the comparison with labeling a race of people 'fucking savages', and 'a sub-species'.
    I'm not supporting those statements. I'm speaking to your hypocritical nature which apparently you fail to comprehend. Don't worry though- it happens to most that have trouble listening and love their own voice.

    You continually rush to condemn those that broadly categorize people of the same ethnicity for the actions of some... yet lead the pack to do the exact thing with Americans.

    You are right to defend those unfairly characterized. Just don't pick and choose who you'll defend and you won't come across as you do. I'm not defensive here. I'm not American. I have problems with America like I do most countries, but I don't think all Americans are responsible for the problems I have with their country. You've never qualified any of your scathing statements about America or Americans... it's quite obvious how you feel about both.

    I watched your video. It was interesting. I commented on it. It's easy to point out the problems though. There's a long list of people who have essentially said the same thing. What's the solution? Offer a plan that people can buy into... then you're on to something and now you have my attention.

    * This is the second time you have made reference to what this thread is truly about. The first time you did I had to laugh to myself. Remember the Sean Penn clip you posted in an attempt to indict all Americans for America's wrongdoings? Do you remember when I commented on it... and then you did your very best Ted Knight Bushwood impersonation uttering your That's not what this thread is about comment?

    For future reference... especially in the threads you create... when you offer something... be prepared to be challenged on it without ducking it- citing the old the intent of the thread comment.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited May 2014
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:



    I'm not supporting those statements. I'm speaking to your hypocritical nature which apparently you fail to comprehend. Don't worry though- it happens to most that have trouble listening and love their own voice.

    You continually rush to condemn those that broadly categorize people of the same ethnicity for the actions of some... yet lead the pack to do the exact thing with Americans.

    Americans aren't an ethnicity. And nobody accused them of being 'fucking savages', or a 'sub-species'. This thread is about America as a country, and about the illusions that country propagates in order to fuel it's mass-consumption.

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    I don't think all Americans are responsible for the problems I have with their country.

    Neither do I.
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Remember the Sean Penn clip you posted in an attempt to indict all Americans for America's wrongdoings? Do you remember when I commented on it... and then you did your very best Ted Knight Bushwood impersonation uttering your That's not what this thread is about comment?

    Yeah, I remember posting that clip. Though you're clearly confused - or just being deliberately obtuse - about my reasons for posting it. It was in response to Know1's post in which he claimed that Hedges was ignorant, and that he was ignorant for making such a broad generalization with his use of the word 'We'. Hedges is American. He was addressing a crowd of Americans. His talk focused on the present cultural situation the U.S is in. The criticism is of the culture, not any particular race. And no such abuse of any race, such as that in the Chinese Tiger Farms thread, has occurred.

    You tried excusing and justifying the racist filth in that other thread. And here again you're trying to equate it - thereby tacitly defending it - with this thread. Why is that?
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    For future reference... especially in the threads you create... when you offer something... be prepared to be challenged on it without ducking it- citing the old the intent of the thread comment.

    You don't know me very well do you. I don't duck anything.

    Carry on.

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
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