unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
No, I recognize that the federal government is supposed to have a limited role in our daily lives, and that we are supposed to be governed at the state level primarily.
Many people that don't want to be ruled by federal overlords are called names such as radicals, terrorists, and paranoid fear mongers by those that prefer to recognize false authority.
Did you read the BLM report that you cited several pages ago? What evidence do you have that "Reid was bought off?" Because you want something to be, doesn't make it so.
I wonder what the cattle fees are as opposed to the solar array fees and if the solar fees are more, ie the government making more money from MY land, why isn't that considered better use of the land?
Slave? Yea, right, you're a slave. Please, stop with the dramatics. If that's not paranoid delusional, then I don't know what is.
Did you read the BLM report that you cited several pages ago? What evidence do you have that "Reid was bought off?" Because you want something to be, doesn't make it so.
I wonder what the cattle fees are as opposed to the solar array fees and if the solar fees are more, ie the government making more money from MY land, why isn't that considered better use of the land?
Slave? Yea, right, you're a slave. Please, stop with the dramatics. If that's not paranoid delusional, then I don't know what is.
Peace.
100% of the efforts of your labor that gets confiscated is considered slavery, at what percentage is it no longer?
Follow the money trail, look at Reid's connections, I'm not doing the research for you.
Stop paying your taxes, stop doing what they want. See what happens.
Keep telling me that you are free, keep telling me that there's a difference in the two parties, that's exactly what they want. They want us divided.
on a side note, not to turn this into another gun thread but I think this situation gives a great glimpse into what it would be like if there was a national gun ban/confiscation. bundy's allies came out because of cows. fucking cows. can you imagine if it was guns?
if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
It would be war.
Maybe the big bad government would win because of tanks/planes/drones, but they'd be murdering their own citizens.
Would any of you call that tyranny yet? Or would it be ok because they passed a "law"?
on a side note, not to turn this into another gun thread but I think this situation gives a great glimpse into what it would be like if there was a national gun ban/confiscation. bundy's allies came out because of cows. fucking cows. can you imagine if it was guns?
The inmates run the asylum?
"My brain's a good brain!"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
This entire thing reinforces my belief that we are nothing but slaves.
Don't pay a bill? Armed men show up to collect.
Don't pay your tax? Armed men drag you away and throw you in a cage.
A lot of criticism on putting women on the front; where's the criticism over federal agents targeting their snipers on these women?
This isn't about rule of law, this is about keeping the machine fed.
Not to side track to much here but since you mentioned slaves...
I can't get the link to work properly right now but there are surveys out there that you can take to score your slavery footprint. The average American scores something like 43 slaves per person. Before any of us in the U.S. cry about how we are enslaved, we might do well to take this into account. Personally, I am more concerned about how many "slaves" I have than I am about how enslaved I am.
I wonder, how many of us here feel like slaves and how many of us understand that, at least in some ways, most of us here are slave owners?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
"Try to not spook the horse."
-Neil Young
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
edited April 2014
Due to being consumers of products from outside the US?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
Site are reporting that Harry Reid is in cahoots with ENN a Chinese firm for which his son works to take over the range area in dispute with that Nevada rancher and the Bureau of Land Management. Is there any truth here?
The Bundy Ranch in NV standoff with BLM is being attributed to Harry Reid's desire to help his son secure rights for a Chinese company to build a solar energy farm in the Nevada desert.
It's making it's rounds on Facebook and, of course, the internet.
Origins: April 2014 saw the publicizing of a decades-old dispute between the federal government and Cliven Bundy, a cattle rancher in Nevada, over grazing rights on public land. Back in 1993, Cliven Bundy began declining to pay the government fees required to allow his cattle to graze on public lands, and in 1998, as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise found in that area, the government obtained the issuance of a court order requiring Bundy to take his cows off that land. In July 2013, a federal court finally ordered Bundy to get his cattle off public land within 45 days or risk having them confiscated by the government and sold to pay off the fees and trespassing fines (reportedly in excess of $1.2 million) that he owes: Bundy does not recognize federal authority over land where his ancestors first settled in the 1880s, which he claims belongs to the state of Nevada. The Bureau of Land Management [BLM] disagreed and took him to federal court, which first ruled in favor of the BLM in 1998. After years of attempts at a negotiated settlement over the $1.2 million Bundy owes in fees failed, federal land agents began seizing hundreds of his cattle illegally grazing on public land.
Bundy's claim that the land belongs to Nevada or Clark County didn't hold up in court, nor did his claim of inheriting an ancestral right to use the land that pre-empts the BLM's role.
As Bundy did not comply with the court order, the confiscation of his cattle began in April 2014, precipitating a tense standoff between Bundy's supporters and law enforcement officials. (The government eventually relented and released about 400 head of cattle it had seized from Bundy.)
Somewhere along the way in the reporting of this brouhaha, the conspiracy theory arose that the showdown between Cliven Bundy and the federal government wasn't really about grazing cattle or endangered tortoises, but was actually about a deal between Harry Reid, the senior U.S. Senator from Nevada (and the current U.S. Majority Leader), and a Chinese company eager to build a solar plant on the disputed land: As a family in Clark County, Nev. continues to face an onslaught of heavily armed federal agents determined to kick them off of their ranch, reports have surfaced that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid might be behind the entire ordeal.
The ranch, which has been in Cliven Bundy's family for more than a century, is ground zero for a growing showdown between federal authorities and individual rights activists.
Reid and his eldest son, reports indicate, were integral in the support and/or implementation of a $5 billion solar plant being built in the county by a Chinese company.
Reid has been outspoken in support of the government's position on the Bundy issue, and both he and his son Rory were in earlier years prominent advocates of efforts by ENN Mojave Energy LLC (a Chinese-backed company) to build a solar plant in Clark County: Questions surrounding family ties are flaring again in Nevada around the Senate majority leader. He and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
here is the rest of the article. the article was too long for one post....
Reid has been one of the project's most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada. His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission. However, the theory that Reid's putative involvement in the Bundy dispute was motivated by a desire to somehow profit from the building of a solar plant falls flat in the face of two basic facts: The site that ENN Mojave Energy was planning to buy in order to build a solar plant is nowhere near the public land Bundy has been disputing with the government, and ENN gave up the solar project and terminated its agreement to buy land to house it as far back as June 2013: A Chinese-backed company is pulling the plug on a multibillion-dollar solar project near Laughlin after it was unable to find customers for the power that would have been generated there, a Clark County spokesman said.
In a letter, an executive from ENN Mojave Energy LLC informed the county that the company was terminating its agreement to purchase 9,000 acres near Laughlin, stating that the "market will not support a project of this scale and nature at this time."
The company, a subsidiary of ENN Group, described as the largest energy company in China, said it was unable to sign the necessary power purchase agreements to sell the energy generated from the solar plant to utilities in Nevada or neighboring states.
The project was broken down into phases, but if fully completed, it was expected to generate enough energy to power 200,000 homes with a price tag of $1 billion to $6 billion.
The move was hailed as a much-needed boost for economic development in the southern part of the state and was projected to create up to 2,200 permanent jobs.
Commissioners agreed to sell the land at $4.5 million — about a sixth of its appraised value — in December 2011 to jump-start the development, but they put in place an aggressive timeline that required ENN to secure the complicated power purchase agreements.
With the solar project now just a mirage, commissioners will discuss what to do with the 9,000 acres of county-owned land at their July 2 meeting.
Even the conservative Breitbart site debunked this conspiracy claim, noting: Despite the obvious partisan gain to be had if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's son Rory (a failed 2010 Nevada gubernatorial candidate) had somehow been involved in a "land grab" affecting the Bundy family ranch operation — the facts just do not pan out as such. Indeed, Rory Reid did in fact have a hand in plans to reclassify federal lands for renewable energy developments. Just northeast of Las Vegas and Nellis Air Force Base, plans were drawn by Reid allies to potentially develop 5,717 acres of land for such use. While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada.
Some versions of this conspiracy theory mistake the proposed ENN Mojave Energy site with that of the Moapa Southern Paiute Solar project, but the latter's 250MW solar power plant is already under construction (so there is no need to grab land for it), and, as noted in Wildlife News, the Moapa plant is being built near the Moapa Indian Reservation and not on public land disputed by Cliven Bundy: A cursory search shows a sudden explosion of articles claiming Nevada's senior senator, Harry Reid, wants Bundy's land (all Bundy actually owns is a melon farm) to build a solar plant to enrich himself and his son.
Bundy has been trespassing over 750,000 acres of U.S. public land to the south of Mesquite and Bunkerville, Nevada. Bundy's actual private property is his melon farm at Bunkerville, which looks like maybe 100 acres on Google Earth. There is a solar farm. But it is not on the huge swath of land Bundy is trespassing on. The solar facility is actually under construction near the Moapa Indian Reservation about ten miles closer to Las Vegas. Likewise, another area currently being studied by BLM for the possible development of solar plants, commonly known as the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone, is sometimes mistakenly thrown into the conspiracy theory mix by persons who point to a BLM report listing "Cattle Trespass Impacts" and claim that it documents the BLM's intent to use the disputed land for solar development: Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle. But as explained at the Wildlife News, that isn't what the quoted blurb means: There is some feeble effort to try to mitigate the damage to wildlife [caused by solar development]. Some of it is near the sites of these solar mirrors. This is called "primary mitigation." Some is in a place distant to the solar power site. This is called "secondary mitigation." Wildlife mitigation is things like planting grass wildlife need or like, development of new water sources for wildlife to drink, and restoration of rangeland overgrazed by cattle.
All this bureaucratic language means is that private groups like the Western Watersheds Project, Friends of Nevada Wilderness, Friends of Gold Butte and Friends of Joshua Tree Forest don't think the damage from solar power plants located elsewhere can be mitigated at Gold Butte because the cattle will tromp all over it.
Did you read the BLM report that you cited several pages ago? What evidence do you have that "Reid was bought off?" Because you want something to be, doesn't make it so.
I wonder what the cattle fees are as opposed to the solar array fees and if the solar fees are more, ie the government making more money from MY land, why isn't that considered better use of the land?
Slave? Yea, right, you're a slave. Please, stop with the dramatics. If that's not paranoid delusional, then I don't know what is.
Peace.
100% of the efforts of your labor that gets confiscated is considered slavery, at what percentage is it no longer?
Follow the money trail, look at Reid's connections, I'm not doing the research for you.
Stop paying your taxes, stop doing what they want. See what happens.
Keep telling me that you are free, keep telling me that there's a difference in the two parties, that's exactly what they want. They want us divided.
You should have read the BLM report that you linked to several pages back that you cited as evidence of the land grab and "Reid being bought." Again, because you want something to be, doesn't make it so.
100% of the efforts of your labor gets confiscated? What are you, out on work release or writing from behind the walls? I have followed the "money trail" and "Reid's connections" and there is no there, there. You sir, owe senator Reid an apology. As gimmie so clearly debunked your claim and from a website that I think you would find more trust worthy or credible than the MSM, no less. But you're going to believe in crazy conspiracy theories because it lines up with your preconceived thought that the big bad government is taking our rights away and you're just a "slave." And pretty soon, by golly, its going to be for your guns, with tanks and drones and 2000 lb bombs, oh the tyranny!
Why would I stop paying my taxes? I think I get a pretty good deal by paying the taxes I pay. I don't have a problem with the party I support and I do cross party lines and vote for candidates that represent my interests. I'm not divided nor am I enslaved. All in all, I think my life is pretty fucking great and my kids' future is looking pretty damn bright as well. And, oh gasp, they go to public school where, oh my freedom, they're minorities. So keep supporting that 20 year law breaking, trespassing yahoo as evidence of the tyrannical government that's coming to enslave you and take your guns away and make you go live on a FEMA camp.
Do yourself a favor and turn off the interweb and the AM. Give it a week or two, maybe even a month if you can stand not knowing how your government is plotting against you and I'll bet you'll feel better and it might just change your outlook. Going from a false government land grab to being enslaved is not healthy.
unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
It's on snopes??? Omg I take back everything I said, lol.
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Halifax, I take back the slavery statement, not because I don't believe it but because it's not the point of this thread. Forgive my momentary lapse of remaining focused on the topic at hand.
It's on snopes??? Omg I take back everything I said, lol.
read what breitbart said about it.
i am surprised that breitbart said anything that would contradict the right wing narrative.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Maybe in this case the land won't be used, but historically the BLM practices this policy with regularity. Maybe the Bundy's have a legitimate concern with the BLM being untrustworthy.
This article addresses the Constitutionality of it rather nicely.
Maybe the Bundy's have a legitimate concern with the BLM being untrustworthy.
Get serious. The Bundy's motivation for defiance was the interest of... what? It never ceases to amaze me how you will be so untrustworthy of the government based on speculation... yet so eager to place your confidence in those proven to be unsavoury.
I'm not going to say take a complete leap of faith with the government and authorities, but can I suggest a more balanced approach to who you are so quick to condemn and who you work so hard to forgive?
"My brain's a good brain!"
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
edited April 2014
So it's speculation that he's the only one left in that county? Are you telling me that the other 52 that were there all just rode off into the sunset willingly? The BLM didn't put any restrictions that made doing business unprofitable? No, government never does that.
You. You, get serious. 53 ranchers were in that county, one is left. Why?
And one ring to bind them all. Jeesh, what a broad load of generalizations to add or connect it to a conspiracy theory. Federal agencies cannot simply grow and multiply willy nilly as they deem fit. They're restricted by the amount of funding they receive for one (have you seen the Ryan budget and do you realize federal expenditures for domestic programs or the growth of them is at record lows). And this article makes it sound like all the people who work or direct these agencies are in cahoots with one another and that there's this broad conspiracy afoot to steal your land and enslave you or take your guns away or whatever else you think the government is trying to either make you do or not allow you to do.
Do you know the difference between "public" and "private?" Bundy's ranch isn't the center of this dispute. Its his refusal to pay grazing fees on PUBLIC land and his subsequent refusal, after losing in federal court 2 or 3 times, to remove his cattle from PUBLIC land. Nobody is forcing him off his PRIVATE ranch. Also, the supposed land grab by the BLM (if you had read the BLM report you linked to, you might have had a different inkling as to what was going on), if you can even call it that, had been initiated by local land commissions in an effort to bring jobs and spur the economy in that part of the state, with the support of Senator Reid. Local land commissions are made up of local citizens, usually through a democratic process of local elections. It might be why Texas is so fucked up, IMHO. The other ranchers that were "forced" out of business? They voluntarily gave up their rights via an offer they accepted, an offer they didn't have to accept. Why, pray tell, didn't they say no, band together and take a stand if it was so egregious? Me thinks it was a decent deal for them. If this is such a violation of rights and an example of government suppression why isn't the Heritage Foundation or the Koch brothers or any one of a number of right wing public advocacy groups offering up free legal services and taking this dispute to the Supreme Court? The federal government didn't just wake up one day and try to squash Bundy. They waited 20 years, took him through a legal process and finally, when he refused to comply, went after him, to which he responded with armed thugs and threats of violence. That is what I would call, and argue that any decent law abiding citizen might call, anarchy. If Bundy doesn't believe in the feds, or his local land commissioners, or the courts in this country, maybe he should file a claim with the International Criminal Court, take it to the UN or the Hague? Or maybe he should pay his back grazing fees and do the same going forward if he wants to be left alone?
Facts seem to get in the way of this and maybe that's why the MSM media isn't covering it. Talk about a false flag event.
What policy exactly does BLM practice regularly? And don't tell me to research it. Explain your argument in a paragraph or two. Lets just forget that Nevada, when it became a state, swore allegiance to the federal government and that's how the federal control of land came into being. Land the federal government acquired in the interests of the nation. The Constitution isn't a pick and choose document. You want to change it? Go through a process, either democratically or through the courts. Not via armed insurrection.
Trying to claim that congress has no oversight and these federal agencies are running amok is preposterous. Maybe the reason "no one is held to account" is because there is no there, there. How many congressional hearings on F&F and Benghazi have there been? How many documents released in those inquiries? HHS and the director taking the 5th? Its her right to do so. Unless you want to pick and choose which rights are protected under the Constitution. IRS scandal? Groups from both parties were investigated for their legitimacy as well they should have been. Again, how many hearings and documents and testimonies have been given. Clinton was impeached for lying about a blow job. You don't think that if there was a there, there, the most partisan congress ever wouldn't be all over this with calls for impeachment and hearings to that end?
And by the way, I was also referring to Breitbart as a source you might accept, not Snopes. You still believe you're a slave?
Slave:
a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3
: a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another
So it's speculation that he's the only one left in that county? Are you telling me that the other 52 that were there all just rode off into the sunset willingly? The BLM didn't put any restrictions that made doing business unprofitable? No, government never does that.
You. You, get serious. 53 ranchers were in that county, one is left. Why?
Life is full of choices. Not all of them with your desired outcome.
Has the First Amendment been suspended? The right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances? Why aren't these 53 standing with Bundy? What petition have they made? Or maybe the profit margin on grazing cattle in scrub desert isn't as profitable as it once was. You know, with factory farming and all. And maybe the government found leasing the land for solar arrays was a better deal for the taxpayers and was less destructive to the land with requirements that the land be restored after the installation. Again, have you read the BLM report you linked to? No, you'd rather believe in conspiracy theories. If a business is cut throat to increase profit, why is it an issue if the government is cut throat to increase revenue? Not that I think the government has been cut throat mind you but isn't the American way about maximizing profits? Where do you stand on Keystone pipeline? You realize some STATE governments are contemplating eminent domain to run the pipeline through PRIVATELY held land. How do you feel about that?
Again... The reason WHY the Feds has to bring in a large force is because the initial small force was met with a large force of armed protestors. It is the SAME thing that would happen to you or me if... 1. We were living in a house that didn't belong to us and we lost our court case to remain there because we've been living there for a long time. 2. We met the 2 Sheriffs trying to evict us from the home with guns and the possibility of gun fire. 3. We had all of our drinking buddies and the guys in our softball league in the front yard, many of them with guns. ... We would be idiots to think it would end there... with the 2 Sheriffs driving away. If we were smart, we would KNOW that they would be coming back with a lot of Sheriffs, along with SWAT Teams and helicopters and a ton of guns. Really... only an idiot would think they can defeat Law Enforcement in America. If you do win... they will keep coming at you with more and more of them. You would have to murder a whole lot of uniformed officers to do so... and in doing so, you deserve to die a violent death because you would be a mass murdering criminal.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So it's speculation that he's the only one left in that county? Are you telling me that the other 52 that were there all just rode off into the sunset willingly? The BLM didn't put any restrictions that made doing business unprofitable? No, government never does that.
You. You, get serious. 53 ranchers were in that county, one is left. Why?
... I'm guessing that the other 52 understood the meaning of 'Land Usage' and didn't think that Public Lands belongs to them... and went elsewhere to graze their cattle. ... Am i right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
This entire thing reinforces my belief that we are nothing but slaves.
Don't pay a bill? Armed men show up to collect. Not really. I didn't pay my water bill and the water company sent me a notice they would be shutting off my water supply... so, i went down to the local office and paid my bill. No guns showed up at my house... violent comfrontation that would end with me on the shit end of the stick averted.
Don't pay your tax? Armed men drag you away and throw you in a cage. Not really. The IRS will send you plenty of notices and place fines on what you owe. You will eventually end up in jail because you would be in violation of the U.S. Constitution (hint: 16th Amendment). and yes, eventually, some armed officers will come to arrest you because they would have a bench warrant on their side and you would have diddly-squat on your side. Plus, it is kind of an asshole move to avoid paying taxes, yet, benefitting from some of the stuff taxes go towards.
A lot of criticism on putting women on the front; where's the criticism over federal agents targeting their snipers on these women? Seriously? You wouldn't stand behind you wife and daughter if faced with gunfire... like a stinking Saddam Hussein asshole, would you? No, i didn't think so. You would take a bullet for them, so they might live, right? So, in what Universe do you defend this blatant act of cowardice?
This isn't about rule of law, this is about keeping the machine fed.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
So it's speculation that he's the only one left in that county? Are you telling me that the other 52 that were there all just rode off into the sunset willingly? The BLM didn't put any restrictions that made doing business unprofitable? No, government never does that.
You. You, get serious. 53 ranchers were in that county, one is left. Why?
... I'm guessing that the other 52 understood the meaning of 'Land Usage' and didn't think that Public Lands belongs to them... and went elsewhere to graze their cattle. ... Am i right?
Or the cost effectiveness of paying the grazing fees didn't make much business sense.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Grazing fees that didn't exist when they started using the land, right?
Grazing fees that didn't exist when they started using the land, right?
They , who? Cliven or his Father or Grandfather? His rights begin with his ownership of HIS ranch. Think the BLM had been created by then. As far as I can see the "rights" chain was broken when title passed to him. He was paying them up to a point , correct? As a taxpayer, I want what is owed for MY/OUR land. Thank you.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
Grazing fees that didn't exist when they started using the land, right?
... Wasn't land management caused by things such as over grazing by ranchers? Perhaps, if Mr. Bundy managed the 160 acres of private property he actually owns... he wouldn't need to graze on an property that is not privately held by him. What is Mr. Bundy doing with the 160 arces he owns?
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Many people that don't want to be ruled by federal overlords are called names such as radicals, terrorists, and paranoid fear mongers by those that prefer to recognize false authority.
I wonder what the cattle fees are as opposed to the solar array fees and if the solar fees are more, ie the government making more money from MY land, why isn't that considered better use of the land?
Slave? Yea, right, you're a slave. Please, stop with the dramatics. If that's not paranoid delusional, then I don't know what is.
Peace.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
Follow the money trail, look at Reid's connections, I'm not doing the research for you.
Stop paying your taxes, stop doing what they want. See what happens.
Keep telling me that you are free, keep telling me that there's a difference in the two parties, that's exactly what they want. They want us divided.
Maybe the big bad government would win because of tanks/planes/drones, but they'd be murdering their own citizens.
Would any of you call that tyranny yet? Or would it be ok because they passed a "law"?
I can't get the link to work properly right now but there are surveys out there that you can take to score your slavery footprint. The average American scores something like 43 slaves per person. Before any of us in the U.S. cry about how we are enslaved, we might do well to take this into account. Personally, I am more concerned about how many "slaves" I have than I am about how enslaved I am.
I wonder, how many of us here feel like slaves and how many of us understand that, at least in some ways, most of us here are slave owners?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
http://www.policymic.com/articles/85059/you-ve-heard-about-the-carbon-footprint-but-do-you-know-what-your-slavery-footprint-is
and here's the survey link:
http://slaveryfootprint.org/survey/#where_do_you_live
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
the harry reid solar plant story has been debunked. even breitbart's site said so. here is the snopes article.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp
Claim: Senator Harry Reid and a Chinese company building a solar plant are behind a standoff between federal agents and a Nevada rancher.
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp#t27MWUROi0Hhe72J.99
FALSE
Site are reporting that Harry Reid is in cahoots with ENN a Chinese firm for which his son works to take over the range area in dispute with that Nevada rancher and the Bureau of Land Management. Is there any truth here?
The Bundy Ranch in NV standoff with BLM is being attributed to Harry Reid's desire to help his son secure rights for a Chinese company to build a solar energy farm in the Nevada desert.
It's making it's rounds on Facebook and, of course, the internet.
Origins: April 2014 saw the publicizing of a decades-old dispute between the federal government and Cliven Bundy, a cattle rancher in Nevada, over grazing rights on public land. Back in 1993, Cliven Bundy began declining to pay the government fees required to allow his cattle to graze on public lands, and in 1998, as part of an effort to protect the endangered desert tortoise found in that area, the government obtained the issuance of a court order requiring Bundy to take his cows off that land. In July 2013, a federal court finally ordered Bundy to get his cattle off public land within 45 days or risk having them confiscated by the government and sold to pay off the fees and trespassing fines (reportedly in excess of $1.2 million) that he owes:
Bundy does not recognize federal authority over land where his ancestors first settled in the 1880s, which he claims belongs to the state of Nevada. The Bureau of Land Management [BLM] disagreed and took him to federal court, which first ruled in favor of the BLM in 1998. After years of attempts at a negotiated settlement over the $1.2 million Bundy owes in fees failed, federal land agents began seizing hundreds of his cattle illegally grazing on public land.
Bundy's claim that the land belongs to Nevada or Clark County didn't hold up in court, nor did his claim of inheriting an ancestral right to use the land that pre-empts the BLM's role.
As Bundy did not comply with the court order, the confiscation of his cattle began in April 2014, precipitating a tense standoff between Bundy's supporters and law enforcement officials. (The government eventually relented and released about 400 head of cattle it had seized from Bundy.)
Somewhere along the way in the reporting of this brouhaha, the conspiracy theory arose that the showdown between Cliven Bundy and the federal government wasn't really about grazing cattle or endangered tortoises, but was actually about a deal between Harry Reid, the senior U.S. Senator from Nevada (and the current U.S. Majority Leader), and a Chinese company eager to build a solar plant on the disputed land:
As a family in Clark County, Nev. continues to face an onslaught of heavily armed federal agents determined to kick them off of their ranch, reports have surfaced that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid might be behind the entire ordeal.
The ranch, which has been in Cliven Bundy's family for more than a century, is ground zero for a growing showdown between federal authorities and individual rights activists.
Reid and his eldest son, reports indicate, were integral in the support and/or implementation of a $5 billion solar plant being built in the county by a Chinese company.
Reid has been outspoken in support of the government's position on the Bundy issue, and both he and his son Rory were in earlier years prominent advocates of efforts by ENN Mojave Energy LLC (a Chinese-backed company) to build a solar plant in Clark County:
Questions surrounding family ties are flaring again in Nevada around the Senate majority leader. He and his oldest son, Rory, are both involved in an effort by a Chinese energy giant, ENN Energy Group, to build a $5 billion solar farm and panel manufacturing plant in the southern Nevada desert.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Reid has been one of the project's most prominent advocates, helping recruit the company during a 2011 trip to China and applying his political muscle on behalf of the project in Nevada. His son, a lawyer with a prominent Las Vegas firm that is representing ENN, helped it locate a 9,000-acre (3,600-hectare) desert site that it is buying well below appraised value from Clark County, where Rory Reid formerly chaired the county commission.
However, the theory that Reid's putative involvement in the Bundy dispute was motivated by a desire to somehow profit from the building of a solar plant falls flat in the face of two basic facts: The site that ENN Mojave Energy was planning to buy in order to build a solar plant is nowhere near the public land Bundy has been disputing with the government, and ENN gave up the solar project and terminated its agreement to buy land to house it as far back as June 2013:
A Chinese-backed company is pulling the plug on a multibillion-dollar solar project near Laughlin after it was unable to find customers for the power that would have been generated there, a Clark County spokesman said.
In a letter, an executive from ENN Mojave Energy LLC informed the county that the company was terminating its agreement to purchase 9,000 acres near Laughlin, stating that the "market will not support a project of this scale and nature at this time."
The company, a subsidiary of ENN Group, described as the largest energy company in China, said it was unable to sign the necessary power purchase agreements to sell the energy generated from the solar plant to utilities in Nevada or neighboring states.
The project was broken down into phases, but if fully completed, it was expected to generate enough energy to power 200,000 homes with a price tag of $1 billion to $6 billion.
The move was hailed as a much-needed boost for economic development in the southern part of the state and was projected to create up to 2,200 permanent jobs.
Commissioners agreed to sell the land at $4.5 million — about a sixth of its appraised value — in December 2011 to jump-start the development, but they put in place an aggressive timeline that required ENN to secure the complicated power purchase agreements.
With the solar project now just a mirage, commissioners will discuss what to do with the 9,000 acres of county-owned land at their July 2 meeting.
Even the conservative Breitbart site debunked this conspiracy claim, noting:
Despite the obvious partisan gain to be had if Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's son Rory (a failed 2010 Nevada gubernatorial candidate) had somehow been involved in a "land grab" affecting the Bundy family ranch operation — the facts just do not pan out as such. Indeed, Rory Reid did in fact have a hand in plans to reclassify federal lands for renewable energy developments. Just northeast of Las Vegas and Nellis Air Force Base, plans were drawn by Reid allies to potentially develop 5,717 acres of land for such use. While it would be fair to claim that such activity was in Bundy's relative neighborhood, the federal lands once leased by the family were more than 20 miles away, east of Overton, Nevada.
Some versions of this conspiracy theory mistake the proposed ENN Mojave Energy site with that of the Moapa Southern Paiute Solar project, but the latter's 250MW solar power plant is already under construction (so there is no need to grab land for it), and, as noted in Wildlife News, the Moapa plant is being built near the Moapa Indian Reservation and not on public land disputed by Cliven Bundy:
A cursory search shows a sudden explosion of articles claiming Nevada's senior senator, Harry Reid, wants Bundy's land (all Bundy actually owns is a melon farm) to build a solar plant to enrich himself and his son.
Bundy has been trespassing over 750,000 acres of U.S. public land to the south of Mesquite and Bunkerville, Nevada. Bundy's actual private property is his melon farm at Bunkerville, which looks like maybe 100 acres on Google Earth. There is a solar farm. But it is not on the huge swath of land Bundy is trespassing on. The solar facility is actually under construction near the Moapa Indian Reservation about ten miles closer to Las Vegas.
Likewise, another area currently being studied by BLM for the possible development of solar plants, commonly known as the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone, is sometimes mistakenly thrown into the conspiracy theory mix by persons who point to a BLM report listing "Cattle Trespass Impacts" and claim that it documents the BLM's intent to use the disputed land for solar development:
Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle.
But as explained at the Wildlife News, that isn't what the quoted blurb means:
There is some feeble effort to try to mitigate the damage to wildlife [caused by solar development]. Some of it is near the sites of these solar mirrors. This is called "primary mitigation." Some is in a place distant to the solar power site. This is called "secondary mitigation." Wildlife mitigation is things like planting grass wildlife need or like, development of new water sources for wildlife to drink, and restoration of rangeland overgrazed by cattle.
All this bureaucratic language means is that private groups like the Western Watersheds Project, Friends of Nevada Wilderness, Friends of Gold Butte and Friends of Joshua Tree Forest don't think the damage from solar power plants located elsewhere can be mitigated at Gold Butte because the cattle will tromp all over it.
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp#t27MWUROi0Hhe72J.99
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
100% of the efforts of your labor gets confiscated? What are you, out on work release or writing from behind the walls? I have followed the "money trail" and "Reid's connections" and there is no there, there. You sir, owe senator Reid an apology. As gimmie so clearly debunked your claim and from a website that I think you would find more trust worthy or credible than the MSM, no less. But you're going to believe in crazy conspiracy theories because it lines up with your preconceived thought that the big bad government is taking our rights away and you're just a "slave." And pretty soon, by golly, its going to be for your guns, with tanks and drones and 2000 lb bombs, oh the tyranny!
Why would I stop paying my taxes? I think I get a pretty good deal by paying the taxes I pay. I don't have a problem with the party I support and I do cross party lines and vote for candidates that represent my interests. I'm not divided nor am I enslaved. All in all, I think my life is pretty fucking great and my kids' future is looking pretty damn bright as well. And, oh gasp, they go to public school where, oh my freedom, they're minorities. So keep supporting that 20 year law breaking, trespassing yahoo as evidence of the tyrannical government that's coming to enslave you and take your guns away and make you go live on a FEMA camp.
Do yourself a favor and turn off the interweb and the AM. Give it a week or two, maybe even a month if you can stand not knowing how your government is plotting against you and I'll bet you'll feel better and it might just change your outlook. Going from a false government land grab to being enslaved is not healthy.
Peace.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
i am surprised that breitbart said anything that would contradict the right wing narrative.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
This article addresses the Constitutionality of it rather nicely.
http://www.rcreader.com/commentary/ranchers-fight-goes-deeper/
Get serious. The Bundy's motivation for defiance was the interest of... what? It never ceases to amaze me how you will be so untrustworthy of the government based on speculation... yet so eager to place your confidence in those proven to be unsavoury.
I'm not going to say take a complete leap of faith with the government and authorities, but can I suggest a more balanced approach to who you are so quick to condemn and who you work so hard to forgive?
You. You, get serious. 53 ranchers were in that county, one is left. Why?
Do you know the difference between "public" and "private?" Bundy's ranch isn't the center of this dispute. Its his refusal to pay grazing fees on PUBLIC land and his subsequent refusal, after losing in federal court 2 or 3 times, to remove his cattle from PUBLIC land. Nobody is forcing him off his PRIVATE ranch. Also, the supposed land grab by the BLM (if you had read the BLM report you linked to, you might have had a different inkling as to what was going on), if you can even call it that, had been initiated by local land commissions in an effort to bring jobs and spur the economy in that part of the state, with the support of Senator Reid. Local land commissions are made up of local citizens, usually through a democratic process of local elections. It might be why Texas is so fucked up, IMHO. The other ranchers that were "forced" out of business? They voluntarily gave up their rights via an offer they accepted, an offer they didn't have to accept. Why, pray tell, didn't they say no, band together and take a stand if it was so egregious? Me thinks it was a decent deal for them. If this is such a violation of rights and an example of government suppression why isn't the Heritage Foundation or the Koch brothers or any one of a number of right wing public advocacy groups offering up free legal services and taking this dispute to the Supreme Court? The federal government didn't just wake up one day and try to squash Bundy. They waited 20 years, took him through a legal process and finally, when he refused to comply, went after him, to which he responded with armed thugs and threats of violence. That is what I would call, and argue that any decent law abiding citizen might call, anarchy. If Bundy doesn't believe in the feds, or his local land commissioners, or the courts in this country, maybe he should file a claim with the International Criminal Court, take it to the UN or the Hague? Or maybe he should pay his back grazing fees and do the same going forward if he wants to be left alone?
Facts seem to get in the way of this and maybe that's why the MSM media isn't covering it. Talk about a false flag event.
What policy exactly does BLM practice regularly? And don't tell me to research it. Explain your argument in a paragraph or two. Lets just forget that Nevada, when it became a state, swore allegiance to the federal government and that's how the federal control of land came into being. Land the federal government acquired in the interests of the nation. The Constitution isn't a pick and choose document. You want to change it? Go through a process, either democratically or through the courts. Not via armed insurrection.
Trying to claim that congress has no oversight and these federal agencies are running amok is preposterous. Maybe the reason "no one is held to account" is because there is no there, there. How many congressional hearings on F&F and Benghazi have there been? How many documents released in those inquiries? HHS and the director taking the 5th? Its her right to do so. Unless you want to pick and choose which rights are protected under the Constitution. IRS scandal? Groups from both parties were investigated for their legitimacy as well they should have been. Again, how many hearings and documents and testimonies have been given. Clinton was impeached for lying about a blow job. You don't think that if there was a there, there, the most partisan congress ever wouldn't be all over this with calls for impeachment and hearings to that end?
And by the way, I was also referring to Breitbart as a source you might accept, not Snopes. You still believe you're a slave?
Slave:
a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3
: a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another
4
: drudge, toiler
Peace.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
i doubt it.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Has the First Amendment been suspended? The right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances? Why aren't these 53 standing with Bundy? What petition have they made? Or maybe the profit margin on grazing cattle in scrub desert isn't as profitable as it once was. You know, with factory farming and all. And maybe the government found leasing the land for solar arrays was a better deal for the taxpayers and was less destructive to the land with requirements that the land be restored after the installation. Again, have you read the BLM report you linked to? No, you'd rather believe in conspiracy theories. If a business is cut throat to increase profit, why is it an issue if the government is cut throat to increase revenue? Not that I think the government has been cut throat mind you but isn't the American way about maximizing profits? Where do you stand on Keystone pipeline? You realize some STATE governments are contemplating eminent domain to run the pipeline through PRIVATELY held land. How do you feel about that?
Peace.
Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.
Brilliantati©
The reason WHY the Feds has to bring in a large force is because the initial small force was met with a large force of armed protestors.
It is the SAME thing that would happen to you or me if...
1. We were living in a house that didn't belong to us and we lost our court case to remain there because we've been living there for a long time.
2. We met the 2 Sheriffs trying to evict us from the home with guns and the possibility of gun fire.
3. We had all of our drinking buddies and the guys in our softball league in the front yard, many of them with guns.
...
We would be idiots to think it would end there... with the 2 Sheriffs driving away. If we were smart, we would KNOW that they would be coming back with a lot of Sheriffs, along with SWAT Teams and helicopters and a ton of guns. Really... only an idiot would think they can defeat Law Enforcement in America. If you do win... they will keep coming at you with more and more of them.
You would have to murder a whole lot of uniformed officers to do so... and in doing so, you deserve to die a violent death because you would be a mass murdering criminal.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm guessing that the other 52 understood the meaning of 'Land Usage' and didn't think that Public Lands belongs to them... and went elsewhere to graze their cattle.
...
Am i right?
Hail, Hail!!!
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/04/21/The-Eyes-of-the-BLM-are-on-Texas
Wasn't land management caused by things such as over grazing by ranchers?
Perhaps, if Mr. Bundy managed the 160 acres of private property he actually owns... he wouldn't need to graze on an property that is not privately held by him.
What is Mr. Bundy doing with the 160 arces he owns?
Hail, Hail!!!