Suddenly we have a bunch of constitutional law scholars up in this bitch... (I am just kidding)
I do love me a media storm...they are in and out like tornados and can often leave a shitload of damage in their wake...
I have to say I have ignored this story for the most part, and will probably go back to ignoring it as I never felt this guy to be a particularly worthy carrier of the freedom flag. I have enjoyed the interesting discussion and I am glad there is a lot of discussion around constitutional perspectives...
Whatever happens in Nevada should fucking stay in Nevada. Hopefully this case gets resolved peacefully, as I am sure it will.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Suddenly we have a bunch of constitutional law scholars up in this bitch... (I am just kidding)
I do love me a media storm...they are in and out like tornados and can often leave a shitload of damage in their wake...
I have to say I have ignored this story for the most part, and will probably go back to ignoring it as I never felt this guy to be a particularly worthy carrier of the freedom flag. I have enjoyed the interesting discussion and I am glad there is a lot of discussion around constitutional perspectives...
Whatever happens in Nevada should fucking stay in Nevada. Hopefully this case gets resolved peacefully, as I am sure it will.
mikepegg!, Such language! Fuckin' a!
)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Suddenly we have a bunch of constitutional law scholars up in this bitch... (I am just kidding)
I do love me a media storm...they are in and out like tornados and can often leave a shitload of damage in their wake...
I have to say I have ignored this story for the most part, and will probably go back to ignoring it as I never felt this guy to be a particularly worthy carrier of the freedom flag. I have enjoyed the interesting discussion and I am glad there is a lot of discussion around constitutional perspectives...
Whatever happens in Nevada should fucking stay in Nevada. Hopefully this case gets resolved peacefully, as I am sure it will.
... Actually, i think the thing is that we are being told some pretty incorrect things about Constitutional Law and have to fact check it ourselves, rather than what is said on a bulletin board as the gospel truth. I mean, i understand using Constitutional Law to support one side of an arguement... but, using one's personal opinion on what Constitutional law 'should' be... or what one perceives it to be is much different that what it really is. .. The thing it thing is disturbing about this whole episode is the armed threat in support of a trespasser who believe he is not trespassing because he's been trespassing all of his life. The best way to draw fire from armed authorities is to point a weapon at them. And seriously, who points a weapon at a cop other than criminals, stupid people or someone looking for a 'Suicide By Cop' exit from life?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Suddenly we have a bunch of constitutional law scholars up in this bitch... (I am just kidding)
I do love me a media storm...they are in and out like tornados and can often leave a shitload of damage in their wake...
I have to say I have ignored this story for the most part, and will probably go back to ignoring it as I never felt this guy to be a particularly worthy carrier of the freedom flag. I have enjoyed the interesting discussion and I am glad there is a lot of discussion around constitutional perspectives...
Whatever happens in Nevada should fucking stay in Nevada. Hopefully this case gets resolved peacefully, as I am sure it will.
... Actually, i think the thing is that we are being told some pretty incorrect things about Constitutional Law and have to fact check it ourselves, rather than what is said on a bulletin board as the gospel truth. I mean, i understand using Constitutional Law to support one side of an arguement... but, using one's personal opinion on what Constitutional law 'should' be... or what one perceives it to be is much different that what it really is. .. The thing it thing is disturbing about this whole episode is the armed threat in support of a trespasser who believe he is not trespassing because he's been trespassing all of his life. The best way to draw fire from armed authorities is to point a weapon at them. And seriously, who points a weapon at a cop other than criminals, stupid people or someone looking for a 'Suicide By Cop' exit from life?
i agree with your last paragraph. i saw an article a few days ago talking about how some of these patriots that came to defend this guy do not mind if they die. one of them said something like "we have to die sometime, might as well die for a cause."
personally, this is a stupid cause to die for, but then again i am not someone who would participate in an armed insurrection just because i don't like what the law says.
funny how these guys will cling to the constitution for their precious 2nd amendment, yet they will chuck out the federal laws that they do not feel that they need to adhere to.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
great post...and like many great posts....it's ignored...
Funny how those who are all about "rule of law" feel that laws don't apply here.... ... Besides the 5 facts listed by ThirtyBills, there is also the fact that Mr. Bundy had his day in court... and tried to get that judgement over ruled... and lost. He apparently does not recognize our courts system, either. The Courts System that is established in the U.S. Constitution. What does he recognize as authority... as law, other than his own free will?
He doesn't recognize federal oversight of the land because Art 1, Sec VIII does not authorize the federal government regulatory power over state land. Therefore he doesn't owe the federal government a dime.
The state should hold regulatory power over the land and therefore would be the entity that would rent the land. He tried to pay them, they wouldn't accept the money.
Any federal law that regulates land in a state is unconstitutional and therefore null and void. Well, at least to those that believe in the Constitution.
This idea that the feds can't regulate land or resources has had its day in court and is not valid. The feds do have ultimate authority over states.
... Actually, i think the thing is that we are being told some pretty incorrect things about Constitutional Law and have to fact check it ourselves, rather than what is said on a bulletin board as the gospel truth. I mean, i understand using Constitutional Law to support one side of an arguement... but, using one's personal opinion on what Constitutional law 'should' be... or what one perceives it to be is much different that what it really is. .. The thing it thing is disturbing about this whole episode is the armed threat in support of a trespasser who believe he is not trespassing because he's been trespassing all of his life. The best way to draw fire from armed authorities is to point a weapon at them. And seriously, who points a weapon at a cop other than criminals, stupid people or someone looking for a 'Suicide By Cop' exit from life?
Whatever it takes to get people interested in the constitution and its interpretations over time is fine by me. It is actually pretty interesting to look at the evolution of interpretation by the nine. When you give it the old sludge test and boil it all the way down, constitutional law is usually based on what 5 people believe the interpretation should be...
I am always amazed at what people will jump behind. I am not a fan of the federal gov't in any shape or form that I have seen in my lifetime, but I don't really believe that we are one step removed from tyranny like the vocal minority...Now if they were simply taking his land via eminent domain it would be a good cause, but they aren't, so in my opinion, it isn't...
funny how these guys will cling to the constitution for their precious 2nd amendment, yet they will chuck out the federal laws that they do not feel that they need to adhere to.
federal law is not constitutional law, they aren't mutually exclusive, but one does not make it the other...judicial review is what decides if a law is constitutional, lawmakers can pass whatever the hell they can get enough votes for...
Federal or state laws are always chucked out by folks that don't believe in them, there is nothing wrong with civil disobedience, its just that if the cause isn't just people will see through it (as I think we will see happen here)...
To be honest, sometimes I wonder why I even try to be consistent, seems as though most people don't really care to be, so why should I not just pick and choose what I like to see done?
The consistency I see in people like yourself Gimme is refreshing...I certainly do not agree politically but it is nice to see consistency
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Ask the land that is being ruined and the indigenous species that are being eliminated how they feel about all the legalese around this mess and my guess is they will respond with, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree" (thank you, Jefferson Airplane). Yes, I know it's a legal issue we are discussing here but again my guess is the land and the critters would say "Fuck that, let's get real here" to all of that.
Also- Thirty Bills, you are not on my ignore list. :-)
... Actually, i think the thing is that we are being told some pretty incorrect things about Constitutional Law and have to fact check it ourselves, rather than what is said on a bulletin board as the gospel truth.
Whatever it takes to get people interested in the constitution and its interpretations over time is fine by me. It is actually pretty interesting to look at the evolution of interpretation by the nine. When you give it the old sludge test and boil it all the way down, constitutional law is usually based on what 5 people believe the interpretation should be...
I am always amazed at what people will jump behind. I am not a fan of the federal gov't in any shape or form that I have seen in my lifetime, but I don't really believe that we are one step removed from tyranny like the vocal minority...Now if they were simply taking his land via eminent domain it would be a good cause, but they aren't, so in my opinion, it isn't...
... I agree, it DOES come down to 5 people to interpret what is within the framework of the Constitution and what is not. But, those 5 people are granted these powers by our Constitution and have gone through a lot of hoops to provide some proof that they are worthy of this power. We may rightfully disagree with their decisions, but the fact is, they probably know a lot more about Constitutional Law than some rancher in Nevada. And I also agree that there are things that are worth defending... even if it means the possibility of losing of your life. He is claiming Public Land as his private property. The Government is NOT trying to take his land, they are trying to either make him pay for usage of Public Land and follow the guidelines of the usage agreement. Defending a trespasser who has chosen not to follow the law by cancelling his permit for land use, refused court orders and earns profits on Public Land that belongs to all of us, not just him... is not worth dying over... in my opinion. ... On a personal note, you and I may sometimes disagree on certain things, but I you are always willing to listen to opposing views and at least try to find common ground based on the firm footing of reason, logic and thought.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Ask the land that is being ruined and the indigenous species that are being eliminated how they feel about all the legalese around this mess and my guess is they will respond with, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree" (thank you, Jefferson Airplane). Yes, I know it's a legal issue we are discussing here but again my guess is the land and the critters would say "Fuck that, let's get real here" to all of that.
Also- Thirty Bills, you are not on my ignore list. :-)
Ask the land that is being ruined and the indigenous species that are being eliminated how they feel about all the legalese around this mess and my guess is they will respond with, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree" (thank you, Jefferson Airplane). Yes, I know it's a legal issue we are discussing here but again my guess is the land and the critters would say "Fuck that, let's get real here" to all of that.
Also- Thirty Bills, you are not on my ignore list. :-)
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Ask the land that is being ruined and the indigenous species that are being eliminated how they feel about all the legalese around this mess and my guess is they will respond with, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree" (thank you, Jefferson Airplane). Yes, I know it's a legal issue we are discussing here but again my guess is the land and the critters would say "Fuck that, let's get real here" to all of that.
Also- Thirty Bills, you are not on my ignore list. :-)
Ask the land that is being ruined and the indigenous species that are being eliminated how they feel about all the legalese around this mess and my guess is they will respond with, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree" (thank you, Jefferson Airplane). Yes, I know it's a legal issue we are discussing here but again my guess is the land and the critters would say "Fuck that, let's get real here" to all of that.
Also- Thirty Bills, you are not on my ignore list. :-)
Well he's on my ignore list!!!!
I need to start being more agreeable!
Yep. Canadians as a whole could be nicer. IMO.
Seriously?
I very much doubt he is. Come on Mickey, show Thirty some love!
Well, at least here we don't stand on opposite sides of a fence with loaded guns. :-)
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Ask the land that is being ruined and the indigenous species that are being eliminated how they feel about all the legalese around this mess and my guess is they will respond with, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree" (thank you, Jefferson Airplane). Yes, I know it's a legal issue we are discussing here but again my guess is the land and the critters would say "Fuck that, let's get real here" to all of that.
Also- Thirty Bills, you are not on my ignore list. :-)
Well he's on my ignore list!!!!
I need to start being more agreeable!
Yep. Canadians as a whole could be nicer. IMO.
Seriously?
Cmon man. Blatant joke riffing on the stereotype that canadians are nice. They are for sure but I couldnt let the opportunity pass. No smiley was the straightface attempt.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Ask the land that is being ruined and the indigenous species that are being eliminated how they feel about all the legalese around this mess and my guess is they will respond with, "Doesn't mean shit to a tree" (thank you, Jefferson Airplane). Yes, I know it's a legal issue we are discussing here but again my guess is the land and the critters would say "Fuck that, let's get real here" to all of that.
Also- Thirty Bills, you are not on my ignore list. :-)
Well he's on my ignore list!!!!
I need to start being more agreeable!
Yep. Canadians as a whole could be nicer. IMO.
Seriously?
Cmon man. Blatant joke riffing on the stereotype that canadians are nice. They are for sure but I couldnt let the opportunity pass. No smiley was the straightface attempt.
Many Canadians have been trying to change that stereotype and after reading your assessment, I thought we had done our job is all. Clearly... there's more work to be done!
A rancher's armed battle against the US government is standard libertarian fare
"Perhaps the most remarkable feature of American democracy is the magnificent estate of public land that it reserved from the very beginning for the use of all citizens, rich or poor. There is nothing like it in the democracies of Europe, which came into being with nations already carved up into private fiefdoms. The Great Idea that hundreds of millions of acres of forests, deserts, rivers and prairies should be owned by, and managed for, the public interest has had a profound and lasting influence on American culture.
But not everyone has accepted it.
Cliven Bundy’s armed standoff with the National Park Service and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is the latest flare-up in a long, ongoing, often-paranoid revolt against federal ownership public lands, even the idea of a public interest at all.
He's part of a small group of extreme libertarians, corporate profiteers, armed militia members and livestock ranchers who have tried before to seize control of public lands, who nurture an intense hatred of the federal government, and who have a long history of violent eruptions going back to the failed “sagebrush rebellions” of the 20th century and before.
Threats of violence are de rigeur and actual violence too common in the modern sagebrush rebellion: pipe bombs planted on wilderness trails, sent to environmental groups, exploded in US Forest Service and BLM offices."
Gee, what a sweet bunch of folks huh?
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
A rancher's armed battle against the US government is standard libertarian fare
"Perhaps the most remarkable feature of American democracy is the magnificent estate of public land that it reserved from the very beginning for the use of all citizens, rich or poor. There is nothing like it in the democracies of Europe, which came into being with nations already carved up into private fiefdoms. The Great Idea that hundreds of millions of acres of forests, deserts, rivers and prairies should be owned by, and managed for, the public interest has had a profound and lasting influence on American culture.
But not everyone has accepted it.
Cliven Bundy’s armed standoff with the National Park Service and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is the latest flare-up in a long, ongoing, often-paranoid revolt against federal ownership public lands, even the idea of a public interest at all.
He's part of a small group of extreme libertarians, corporate profiteers, armed militia members and livestock ranchers who have tried before to seize control of public lands, who nurture an intense hatred of the federal government, and who have a long history of violent eruptions going back to the failed “sagebrush rebellions” of the 20th century and before.
Threats of violence are de rigeur and actual violence too common in the modern sagebrush rebellion: pipe bombs planted on wilderness trails, sent to environmental groups, exploded in US Forest Service and BLM offices."
Gee, what a sweet bunch of folks huh?
A solid perspective.
This behaviour is insolent and hardly heroic. To be brutally honest, I'm simply stunned that so many people might get in such a corner to support it.
the feds are gonna "target" the people they can see, which is usually the people in the front, not the guy behind the guy behind the guy. I think it's super low to put your women in front to get mowed down just to make some irrational point. what I find strange about the whole thing is that if a brown man across the ocean did that...there would be this huge outcry of look how savage these terrorists are. that's why we gotta fight them because they use women and children as human shields. only subhuman people do that. but some redneck shitkicker does it and now he's a local hero? fucking bizarre.
if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
This entire thing reinforces my belief that we are nothing but slaves.
Don't pay a bill? Armed men show up to collect.
Don't pay your tax? Armed men drag you away and throw you in a cage.
A lot of criticism on putting women on the front; where's the criticism over federal agents targeting their snipers on these women?
This isn't about rule of law, this is about keeping the machine fed.
You are being silly. Don't persist in belaboring this case. It took 20 years before the government intervened. To my way of thinking... the government was extremely patient in this situation. So much so that the thread should have been: why did the federal government drag their feet and not deal with this law breaker sooner than 20 years? They need to become more efficient.
And I agree completely with Verona. Wanna-Be-Tough-Shitkicking-Yokels placing their women at the front of their lines- let alone even bringing them to their 'fight' (if that's what you want to call it)- speaks volumes about their levels of cowardice or stupidity. Either trait is pathetic.
While I'm at it... they remind me of the skinny little wimpy guys in the bars that- never truly wishing to start anything- used to lip bigger people off to look tough... thinking that because they're so much bigger... they won't do anything about it. Kind of like Pomeranians 'barking' at Rottweilers from their master's arms.
These tough guys are all sitting on their dirt patches, chewing on their toe nails and telling each other how tough they are. Given there was no real incident to speak of... I tend to think they are Pomeranians. Good on the federal agents for being well-trained and not dealing with the annoying squeaky barking that could have easily prompted a good man to open up a can of whoopass.
You can believe what you want, but don't even try to tell me it's about the rule of law. It's about the money.
If rule of law mattered, if trespassing were the issue, then those agents would be deployed on the southern border. But it's not about that, it's about $ and control.
So you call those people what you want, in the end we both know that the government will again get what they want, and they will obtain it by force.
You can believe what you want, but don't even try to tell me it's about the rule of law. It's about the money.
If rule of law mattered, if trespassing were the issue, then those agents would be deployed on the southern border. But it's not about that, it's about $ and control.
So you call those people what you want, in the end we both know that the government will again get what they want, and they will obtain it by force.
Well... can you imagine the anarchy that would reign if your government wasn't capable of handling situations such as these? Do you really desire for a toothless government that can be shit on anytime someone wishes to shit on it? In other words... a government that will not enforce any of your land's laws?
I'd almost guarantee you that, say in year 10 of his defiance and becoming confident that he had bested the feds, Bundy never anxiously wondered when the government was going to take a course of action. I'd almost guarantee that Bundy loudly boasted to his pardners how he was bigger than the government by refusing to comply with regulations. You say its about '$ and control'... I say it's about insolence and pride. He got called on his criminal behaviour when he though he never would.
You never address the fact that they gave this guy 20 years to comply before finally moving to action. You can cite unfounded theories as to the motivation for doing so... but at face value... it's pretty cut and dry.
I've already addressed what you are asking, and since my time here is spent on a cell phone I really don't want to type it all out again.
If the BLM were really helping then why did the other 52 ranchers already close up shop? Maybe because they could not find success with the restrictions and fees in place.
Let's see, BLM wants land for solar array, so BLM forces everyone out the achieve that. Except one guy decided not to play along, so the result is armed agents show up to get the result that they need.
Surely anyone here can see the real issue, stop for one second and see the big picture. Stop telling me it's about rule of law and that the courts decided. The Feds want the land, so they create laws in their favor, force all but one guy out, then say the one guy owes X amount of money, and armed agents show up and confiscate his herd.
The people that defend him are called terrorists for the media story to justify the future use of govt force to TAKE whatever they want.
It's about control and money. It has jack shit to do with turtles.
On this, we agree. And that is true for both sides of the discussion. The ranchers particularly don't give two cow pies for the health of the land. Which is why I continually bring into the discussion the concern for the environmental side of the issue.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
And please, please, don't insult me with the bs of the anarchy that would ensure if the Feds stayed out of this. We are both smarter than that.
Remember when everything sucked and the government solved all of our problems? Me neither.
You don't think that there are inherent problems with people being 'selective' with regards to which laws they think they should comply with and which laws they shouldn't?
Comments
I do love me a media storm...they are in and out like tornados and can often leave a shitload of damage in their wake...
I have to say I have ignored this story for the most part, and will probably go back to ignoring it as I never felt this guy to be a particularly worthy carrier of the freedom flag. I have enjoyed the interesting discussion and I am glad there is a lot of discussion around constitutional perspectives...
Whatever happens in Nevada should fucking stay in Nevada. Hopefully this case gets resolved peacefully, as I am sure it will.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Actually, i think the thing is that we are being told some pretty incorrect things about Constitutional Law and have to fact check it ourselves, rather than what is said on a bulletin board as the gospel truth. I mean, i understand using Constitutional Law to support one side of an arguement... but, using one's personal opinion on what Constitutional law 'should' be... or what one perceives it to be is much different that what it really is.
..
The thing it thing is disturbing about this whole episode is the armed threat in support of a trespasser who believe he is not trespassing because he's been trespassing all of his life. The best way to draw fire from armed authorities is to point a weapon at them. And seriously, who points a weapon at a cop other than criminals, stupid people or someone looking for a 'Suicide By Cop' exit from life?
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
personally, this is a stupid cause to die for, but then again i am not someone who would participate in an armed insurrection just because i don't like what the law says.
funny how these guys will cling to the constitution for their precious 2nd amendment, yet they will chuck out the federal laws that they do not feel that they need to adhere to.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
great post...and like many great posts....it's ignored...
Funny how those who are all about "rule of law" feel that laws don't apply here....
...
Besides the 5 facts listed by ThirtyBills, there is also the fact that Mr. Bundy had his day in court... and tried to get that judgement over ruled... and lost.
He apparently does not recognize our courts system, either. The Courts System that is established in the U.S. Constitution.
What does he recognize as authority... as law, other than his own free will?
He doesn't recognize federal oversight of the land because Art 1, Sec VIII does not authorize the federal government regulatory power over state land. Therefore he doesn't owe the federal government a dime.
The state should hold regulatory power over the land and therefore would be the entity that would rent the land. He tried to pay them, they wouldn't accept the money.
Any federal law that regulates land in a state is unconstitutional and therefore null and void. Well, at least to those that believe in the Constitution.
This idea that the feds can't regulate land or resources has had its day in court and is not valid. The feds do have ultimate authority over states.
I am always amazed at what people will jump behind. I am not a fan of the federal gov't in any shape or form that I have seen in my lifetime, but I don't really believe that we are one step removed from tyranny like the vocal minority...Now if they were simply taking his land via eminent domain it would be a good cause, but they aren't, so in my opinion, it isn't...
federal law is not constitutional law, they aren't mutually exclusive, but one does not make it the other...judicial review is what decides if a law is constitutional, lawmakers can pass whatever the hell they can get enough votes for...
Federal or state laws are always chucked out by folks that don't believe in them, there is nothing wrong with civil disobedience, its just that if the cause isn't just people will see through it (as I think we will see happen here)...
To be honest, sometimes I wonder why I even try to be consistent, seems as though most people don't really care to be, so why should I not just pick and choose what I like to see done?
The consistency I see in people like yourself Gimme is refreshing...I certainly do not agree politically but it is nice to see consistency
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I agree, it DOES come down to 5 people to interpret what is within the framework of the Constitution and what is not. But, those 5 people are granted these powers by our Constitution and have gone through a lot of hoops to provide some proof that they are worthy of this power. We may rightfully disagree with their decisions, but the fact is, they probably know a lot more about Constitutional Law than some rancher in Nevada.
And I also agree that there are things that are worth defending... even if it means the possibility of losing of your life. He is claiming Public Land as his private property. The Government is NOT trying to take his land, they are trying to either make him pay for usage of Public Land and follow the guidelines of the usage agreement. Defending a trespasser who has chosen not to follow the law by cancelling his permit for land use, refused court orders and earns profits on Public Land that belongs to all of us, not just him... is not worth dying over... in my opinion.
...
On a personal note, you and I may sometimes disagree on certain things, but I you are always willing to listen to opposing views and at least try to find common ground based on the firm footing of reason, logic and thought.
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Well, at least here we don't stand on opposite sides of a fence with loaded guns. :-)
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/19/cliven-bundy-nevada-blm-libertarian
A rancher's armed battle against the US government is standard libertarian fare
"Perhaps the most remarkable feature of American democracy is the magnificent estate of public land that it reserved from the very beginning for the use of all citizens, rich or poor. There is nothing like it in the democracies of Europe, which came into being with nations already carved up into private fiefdoms. The Great Idea that hundreds of millions of acres of forests, deserts, rivers and prairies should be owned by, and managed for, the public interest has had a profound and lasting influence on American culture.
But not everyone has accepted it.
Cliven Bundy’s armed standoff with the National Park Service and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) is the latest flare-up in a long, ongoing, often-paranoid revolt against federal ownership public lands, even the idea of a public interest at all.
He's part of a small group of extreme libertarians, corporate profiteers, armed militia members and livestock ranchers who have tried before to seize control of public lands, who nurture an intense hatred of the federal government, and who have a long history of violent eruptions going back to the failed “sagebrush rebellions” of the 20th century and before.
Threats of violence are de rigeur and actual violence too common in the modern sagebrush rebellion: pipe bombs planted on wilderness trails, sent to environmental groups, exploded in US Forest Service and BLM offices."
Gee, what a sweet bunch of folks huh?
This behaviour is insolent and hardly heroic. To be brutally honest, I'm simply stunned that so many people might get in such a corner to support it.
Don't pay a bill? Armed men show up to collect.
Don't pay your tax? Armed men drag you away and throw you in a cage.
A lot of criticism on putting women on the front; where's the criticism over federal agents targeting their snipers on these women?
This isn't about rule of law, this is about keeping the machine fed.
And I agree completely with Verona. Wanna-Be-Tough-Shitkicking-Yokels placing their women at the front of their lines- let alone even bringing them to their 'fight' (if that's what you want to call it)- speaks volumes about their levels of cowardice or stupidity. Either trait is pathetic.
While I'm at it... they remind me of the skinny little wimpy guys in the bars that- never truly wishing to start anything- used to lip bigger people off to look tough... thinking that because they're so much bigger... they won't do anything about it. Kind of like Pomeranians 'barking' at Rottweilers from their master's arms.
These tough guys are all sitting on their dirt patches, chewing on their toe nails and telling each other how tough they are. Given there was no real incident to speak of... I tend to think they are Pomeranians. Good on the federal agents for being well-trained and not dealing with the annoying squeaky barking that could have easily prompted a good man to open up a can of whoopass.
If rule of law mattered, if trespassing were the issue, then those agents would be deployed on the southern border. But it's not about that, it's about $ and control.
So you call those people what you want, in the end we both know that the government will again get what they want, and they will obtain it by force.
I'd almost guarantee you that, say in year 10 of his defiance and becoming confident that he had bested the feds, Bundy never anxiously wondered when the government was going to take a course of action. I'd almost guarantee that Bundy loudly boasted to his pardners how he was bigger than the government by refusing to comply with regulations. You say its about '$ and control'... I say it's about insolence and pride. He got called on his criminal behaviour when he though he never would.
You never address the fact that they gave this guy 20 years to comply before finally moving to action. You can cite unfounded theories as to the motivation for doing so... but at face value... it's pretty cut and dry.
If the BLM were really helping then why did the other 52 ranchers already close up shop? Maybe because they could not find success with the restrictions and fees in place.
Let's see, BLM wants land for solar array, so BLM forces everyone out the achieve that. Except one guy decided not to play along, so the result is armed agents show up to get the result that they need.
Surely anyone here can see the real issue, stop for one second and see the big picture. Stop telling me it's about rule of law and that the courts decided. The Feds want the land, so they create laws in their favor, force all but one guy out, then say the one guy owes X amount of money, and armed agents show up and confiscate his herd.
The people that defend him are called terrorists for the media story to justify the future use of govt force to TAKE whatever they want.
It's about control and money. It has jack shit to do with turtles.
Remember when everything sucked and the government solved all of our problems? Me neither.
On this, we agree. And that is true for both sides of the discussion. The ranchers particularly don't give two cow pies for the health of the land. Which is why I continually bring into the discussion the concern for the environmental side of the issue.
You give people way too much credit.