godfather, i think most here would agree that "smoking pole" is harmless compared to believing in a dogma that requires everyone who believes differently to be burned and tortured for ETERNITY.. Christianity is a filthy perversion of morality....subjugation of women, slavery of children, murder of children, rape of children, racism, genocide, children included.. all of these things are done at the express command of God (according to that smut we call the Bible)
from what I understand most schools don't have prayer or "in God we trust" in the class or the school marque,I know my son's didn't but they did offer a gay living class for student's that felt out of place amung their non gay school mates and that pist me off,it's o.k to smoke your buddy's pole but no prayer in class, sorry for the rant.
and the second half of your post and all those things you say we should be able to believe in we have here in America and as far as Afghanistan goes isn't that a mostly muslim country and most or all attacks or wars fought or started by "radical"muslims the only Christian conflict I have heard of in the middle east is that Christain Pastor who is being held by a muslin court for being a Christain and not a muslim.
Godfather.
... You are correct, sir... Public Schools do not have teacher lead prayers because Public Schools are funded by the Public (Taxes). If you want everyone's taxes to fund Public School... then, you would have to allow ALL Religions to be represented, equally. This would mean your child would have to participate in the Islamic call to prayer, The Festivus Feats of Strength, the Satanic Pentangle Ritual and every other religious rite. I'm guessing, you would not be okay with that... right? The way you can have your child participate in a teacher lead Christian prayer... enroll him/her in a PRIVATE Christian school or home school him/her. ... Also... I'm not a theologian, but, I'm pretty sure that GAY is not a religion. And the Gay community is not requiring your child to participate in their after school activities. Your child can attend or start a Christian Bible Study after school club if he/she wants. But, you would have to also allow any religious clubs on the public school grounds. It means, you cannot put a stop to the Islamic Koran Studies club or the Jewish Torah Club or the Holy Satanic Order of the Goat Club also using school facilities. ... And you missed my point on Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a nation where Islam is the National Religion. It is a Theocracy where religious law and law of the land are intermingled. The point being, Theorcaries are not good for free people. By having America become a Theocracy... even when it is YOUR religion in place... it would cease being America. The founding Fathers placed the Freedom of Religion FIRST because of the way the Church of England ruled over the English colonies. .. Again... the War Against Christianity is in your head. It was most likely put in there by your television set. It does not exist. We don't want any one religion to rule over all of us. We want to let the individual choose his/her religion... not a directive from the state. That is the point.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
riotgrl, exactly - " I have so many different students from varying faiths - whose faith am I supposed to uphold and which faith do I throw by the wayside?"
All, and none.
(I can't stand - ie, figure out - this new quote feature!)
rgambs, some could apply your brush to the Muslim faith. To other faiths. And wrongly so...maybe misguidedly so?
I know many decent people who are Christian. Who try, like the rest of us poor slobs, to live honorable lives, treat others with respect, and just do what's right.
I know many decent people who are Christian. Who try, like the rest of us poor slobs, to live honorable lives, treat others with respect, and just do what's right.
... I agree. I have many friends I can discuss religion with. By far my favorites is an Air Force Chaplain. He has taught me a lot about religion and a lot about Christianity. And he does it without preaching to me or trying to get me onboard. I have so much respect for him because he shows so much respect towards me and towards people of other religions. He also understands how Christianity gets a bad rap... mostly here in America. It is not because of Christianity and more due to the intolerance of Christians. He said if more Christians acted more Christ-like... that is, following Christ's teaching of love, tolerance, acceptance and forgiveness, more people would choose Christianity as their religion. It is the selish/self centered/self righteous acts of Christians that turn people away from Christ. And I have to come clean... many of the thoughts on Christianity, i have heard from him. He is a good man.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
it could be applied to many religions....how am I wrong? what is misguided? anyone is free to take whatever literature they want seriously, but when your literature is filled with crimes against humanity it is FILTH. would Hitler's journal (should it exist) be an appropriate text on which to base a "religion of love"?
i didn't say christians are filthy perverts, i said their holy book is a filthy perversion.
I guess one could say that I am or that have Christian beliefs but I think of it as my own realtionship with God/Jesus but that being said I don't understand why people would think that Christianity is being shoved down their throats ? is someone really bothering you with their Christian beliefs that much ? I personally rearly ever see this,maybe once in a blue moon a Christian will knock on the door but they never seem to be pushy about it in fact they usally just drop off a Church schuldel and say have a nice day so where is this coming from ? ius the T.V worship shows ? change the channel if it bothers you also I have never met a Christian that tryed to force anyyhing on me but I will admit the mormans are pretty pushy and don't give up very ez unless you tell them to get lost right away but Christains that I have encountered have never forced anything on me.
Godfather.
... The issue arises when it comes to legislation and/or public policy, not indivudual's beliefs, sir. For example, when Christian backed groups try to teach 'Creationism, (a.k.a. 'Intelligent Design') in public schools. Since public schools are funded by the public, i.e. Taxes, it is clearly favoring the Christian religion over all other religions, including the religion that does not believe in religion. That same principle applies to publicly owned property, such as Court Houses, City Halls, Police Stations, Fire houses, etc... If you feel that the Crosses or Ten Commandments or Nativity Scenes should be displayed on public grounds, you would also have to agree that Minoras, Festivus Poles and Satanic Pentagrams (for symbols of Satanic Religions... NOT atheists or Agnostics) should be allowed to be displayed on those grounds, too. It also applies to teacher lead prayers in public schools. No one says it is illegal to pray in school... which I am sure goes on before algebra finals... the First Amendment gives usall the right of religious freedom, including freedom FROM religion. .... i don't think anyone arguing against Christianity want Christianity banned.. we just do not want Christianity or be the National religion of the United States. We believe you should be able to believe in whatever form of religion you choose, including no religion at all. All we need to do is look at those naitions where religion is intertwined with government. Look at Afghanistan and tell me if you believe that to be a good model. .... That's all.
from what I understand most schools don't have prayer or "in God we trust" in the class or the school marque,I know my son's didn't but they did offer a gay living class for student's that felt out of place amung their non gay school mates and that pist me off,it's o.k to smoke your buddy's pole but no prayer in class, sorry for the rant.
and the second half of your post and all those things you say we should be able to believe in we have here in America and as far as Afghanistan goes isn't that a mostly muslim country and most or all attacks or wars fought or started by "radical"muslims the only Christian conflict I have heard of in the middle east is that Christain Pastor who is being held by a muslin court for being a Christain and not a muslim.
Godfather.
Most schools have numerous clubs that address a wide variety of beliefs held by the students in any given school. My school has both FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) and GSA (Gay/Straight Alliance). We also start each morning with a moment of silence - that can be interpreted however one chooses. It can be a time of prayer or reflection or just 2 seconds that they have to be quiet! I have so many different students from varying faiths - whose faith am I supposed to uphold and which faith do I throw by the wayside? In a public school, we are required to uphold no religion as that would be unconstitutional.
The moment of silence is a direct result of religion interfering with my publicly funded dollars and pisses me off as much as gay groups do to godfather. Total BS. If you want to pray go for it. Before you get to the bus I'm paying for to take your kid to school. Ahhhh. Feel better now.
it could be applied to many religions....how am I wrong? what is misguided? anyone is free to take whatever literature they want seriously, but when your literature is filled with crimes against humanity it is FILTH. would Hitler's journal (should it exist) be an appropriate text on which to base a "religion of love"?
i didn't say christians are filthy perverts, i said their holy book is a filthy perversion.
I guess I took your calling Christianity itself perverted would automatically extend to those who try to follow it (the "good" parts of it - I get that it, like everything, isn't without fault or hypocrisies), and find strength, inspiration, etc. in that smutty book.
I guess one could say that I am or that have Christian beliefs but I think of it as my own realtionship with God/Jesus but that being said I don't understand why people would think that Christianity is being shoved down their throats ? is someone really bothering you with their Christian beliefs that much ? I personally rearly ever see this,maybe once in a blue moon a Christian will knock on the door but they never seem to be pushy about it in fact they usally just drop off a Church schuldel and say have a nice day so where is this coming from ? ius the T.V worship shows ? change the channel if it bothers you also I have never met a Christian that tryed to force anyyhing on me but I will admit the mormans are pretty pushy and don't give up very ez unless you tell them to get lost right away but Christains that I have encountered have never forced anything on me.
Godfather.
... The issue arises when it comes to legislation and/or public policy, not indivudual's beliefs, sir. For example, when Christian backed groups try to teach 'Creationism, (a.k.a. 'Intelligent Design') in public schools. Since public schools are funded by the public, i.e. Taxes, it is clearly favoring the Christian religion over all other religions, including the religion that does not believe in religion. That same principle applies to publicly owned property, such as Court Houses, City Halls, Police Stations, Fire houses, etc... If you feel that the Crosses or Ten Commandments or Nativity Scenes should be displayed on public grounds, you would also have to agree that Minoras, Festivus Poles and Satanic Pentagrams (for symbols of Satanic Religions... NOT atheists or Agnostics) should be allowed to be displayed on those grounds, too. It also applies to teacher lead prayers in public schools. No one says it is illegal to pray in school... which I am sure goes on before algebra finals... the First Amendment gives usall the right of religious freedom, including freedom FROM religion. .... i don't think anyone arguing against Christianity want Christianity banned.. we just do not want Christianity or be the National religion of the United States. We believe you should be able to believe in whatever form of religion you choose, including no religion at all. All we need to do is look at those naitions where religion is intertwined with government. Look at Afghanistan and tell me if you believe that to be a good model. .... That's all.
from what I understand most schools don't have prayer or "in God we trust" in the class or the school marque,I know my son's didn't but they did offer a gay living class for student's that felt out of place amung their non gay school mates and that pist me off,it's o.k to smoke your buddy's pole but no prayer in class, sorry for the rant.
and the second half of your post and all those things you say we should be able to believe in we have here in America and as far as Afghanistan goes isn't that a mostly muslim country and most or all attacks or wars fought or started by "radical"muslims the only Christian conflict I have heard of in the middle east is that Christain Pastor who is being held by a muslin court for being a Christain and not a muslim.
Godfather.
Most schools have numerous clubs that address a wide variety of beliefs held by the students in any given school. My school has both FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) and GSA (Gay/Straight Alliance). We also start each morning with a moment of silence - that can be interpreted however one chooses. It can be a time of prayer or reflection or just 2 seconds that they have to be quiet! I have so many different students from varying faiths - whose faith am I supposed to uphold and which faith do I throw by the wayside? In a public school, we are required to uphold no religion as that would be unconstitutional.
very cool reply Riotgirl thank you,so it sounds like no one belief is forced on any student, I've just been schooled.
Let me add a point of the other side... I think Christians need to understand that not everyone is Christian. You don't need to save us from anything. Just let us find our own way. Also, you are not being persecuted in America. There is no War on Christmas and there is no War on Christianity. You can pray all you want in school... just don't expect the rest of us to have to join along with you. Take the advice of your own Saviour and "... whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret". You are free to set up Nativity Scenes in your front yards and at your churches but, not on taxpayer property. Sure, you pay taxes... but so do Jews and Muslims and Hindi and Atheists and Festivusians and Satanists... so you should expect a minora and a Festivus Pole and Santa Claus and Krampus and Satan to find a place along side the baby Jesus outside the county courthouse and not get upset when it happens. And i would suggest that maybe if you try living by the Ten Commandments, so you won't have to have monuments placed everywhere to remind you what they are. Finally, You are free to teach and learn about Creationism... but, on your church's or private school's dime, not on the taxpayers. You may believe Creationism is a science, but it is not recognized as a science and therefore, should not be taught in public schools as a science. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it real. ... peace...
I guess one could say that I am or that have Christian beliefs but I think of it as my own realtionship with God/Jesus but that being said I don't understand why people would think that Christianity is being shoved down their throats ? is someone really bothering you with their Christian beliefs that much ? I personally rearly ever see this,maybe once in a blue moon a Christian will knock on the door but they never seem to be pushy about it in fact they usally just drop off a Church schuldel and say have a nice day so where is this coming from ? ius the T.V worship shows ? change the channel if it bothers you also I have never met a Christian that tryed to force anyyhing on me but I will admit the mormans are pretty pushy and don't give up very ez unless you tell them to get lost right away but Christains that I have encountered have never forced anything on me.
Godfather: I agree most Christians are ordinary decent folks like the rest of us. But there is a small but very influential minority who do certainly force their beliefs - and since we're talking about creationism and evolution here, this article on the HBO show Questioning Darwin is a good illustration of certain Christians forcing their point in frightening and damaging ways.
A couple of key lines from the article that illustrate how beliefs are forced, and held in place by promoting ignorance and fear:
"For creationists, intellectual inquiry is a sin, and anyone who dares to doubt the wisdom of their doctrine invites eternal damnation. That’s the perverse brilliance of creationism, the key to its self-perpetuation: First it locks kids in the dungeon of ignorance and dogmatic fundamentalism. Then it throws away the key...."
"Creationists teach their children not only that evolution is evil, but that studying evolution, even thinking about it, is a sin that leads the soul to eternal damnation."
"Creationists reject not just evolution but most of the Enlightenment and pretty much all intellectual development since. Rather than celebrate the brilliance of the human mind, they disparage free thought as dangerous and sinful. Instead of extolling the virtues of creativity and imagination, they malign all unorthodox ideas as immoral and wicked... [Creationism] turns our greatest ability—to reason—into our greatest enemy. Using our brains, according to creationism, will lead us to sin; only mindless piety can keep us on the track to salvation."
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
creationism has never made any sense to me...when I was a young child I looked and looked for answers but religion gave me none. I just don't have that level of suspension of disbelief in reality required. that's why I don't believe in both.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Understandable that, in earlier times before rational thought/scientific method, people would develop ideas about how/why we are here but for me it is time to let science explain creation/evolution.
So does anyone else beside me think that in 2000 years or so from now we might look back at 2014 as a time before "rational thought/scientific method" and that we had to "develop ideas about how/why we are here"?
I definitely think that way. That's a long time from now and progress continually happens at faster and faster rates.
I don't think so. I think in 2000 years (if, by great fortune and much effort we're still here) we will have a better scientific understanding of life and the cosmos (not to mention the comic) and and even deeper appreciation for the myths (which will be taught in classes called "Creation Myths 101") that humans have created throughout the millennia.
And I believe that a lot of what we accept now as scientific fact will be looked upon as myth in 2000 years.
Like what?
How should I know? But 2000 years from now, things are going to look a lot different than they do now. And our perspective will change dramatically.
Do you think the people 2000 years ago felt what they believed were myths?
2000 years ago people were more ignorant.. and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense... I simply mean there were a lot of unknowns... way more than we deal with today. mankind has progressed in leaps and bounds and things we take for granted today would have been seen as witchcraft not so long ago. imo we don't really know what people 2000 years ago thought of 'religion'. I use to allow that jesus christ was probably jewish and that he started to preach his message to the people contra to the status quo of the time. I no longer think that. ive always been weary of the absence of any real presence of women in christianitys origin story. woman is painted as the temptress as if men have no control or personal responsibility for their actions. it wasn't adam who caused the downfall of men but eve with her wicked ways and her listening to the snake. does anyone ever ask themselves WHY the snake has been cast as eves temptor? why it wasn't adam it approached? do you think it is because eve, and by extension all women, is/are weak? does anyone ever think about what came before christianity and judaism? or do people simply take what they've been taught on faith? that this is what we are taught, this is always the way its been(for the past 2000 odd years anyway) and so this is how it shall be?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i admittedly havn't listened to the posted debate, but i think a much more interesting conversation/debate would take place between Bill Nye and someone like Francis Collins. Collins, for those who may not know is a renowned scientist known mostly for his leadership on the human genome project. He is also known for a theory he calls "theistic evolution" in which he posits that the evidence supporting evolutionary theory is overwhelming to the point of undeniability, yet it is also perfectly reasonable to believe that evolution is a process set up and put into motion and overseen by God as a means to an end (diverse life). This Ken Ham fella is quite obviously a set up for Nye as Ham is quite apparently a fundamentalist buffoon unfit to challenge Sid the Science Kid in any type of debate.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
2000 years ago people were more ignorant.. and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense... I simply mean there were a lot of unknowns... way more than we deal with today. mankind has progressed in leaps and bounds and things we take for granted today would have been seen as witchcraft not so long ago. imo we don't really know what people 2000 years ago thought of 'religion'. I use to allow that jesus christ was probably jewish and that he started to preach his message to the people contra to the status quo of the time. I no longer think that. ive always been weary of the absence of any real presence of women in christianitys origin story. woman is painted as the temptress as if men have no control or personal responsibility for their actions. it wasn't adam who caused the downfall of men but eve with her wicked ways and her listening to the snake. does anyone ever ask themselves WHY the snake has been cast as eves temptor? why it wasn't adam it approached? do you think it is because eve, and by extension all women, is/are weak? does anyone ever think about what came before christianity and judaism? or do people simply take what they've been taught on faith? that this is what we are taught, this is always the way its been(for the past 2000 odd years anyway) and so this is how it shall be?
I don't think it was ignorance at all...Ignorance to me says they were given evidence to the contrary and chose to ignore it. Science just hadn't gotten far enough yet. We barely had begun self realization in the time of the greeks...we just couldn't get their fast enough as a species...
People today who choose to ignore the scientific knowledge gained are ignorant, willfully so.
I can't believe this is a debate. Whether you believe in a god of creation or not, how can one look at the evidence for all things evolution and deny them. A god who can create a universe and supposedly gives his creations free will could have also set in motion the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. Those that deny evolution in my opinion put limits on the God they believe to be infallible...isn't that a kind of blasphemy?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
2000 years ago people were more ignorant.. and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense... I simply mean there were a lot of unknowns... way more than we deal with today. mankind has progressed in leaps and bounds and things we take for granted today would have been seen as witchcraft not so long ago. imo we don't really know what people 2000 years ago thought of 'religion'. I use to allow that jesus christ was probably jewish and that he started to preach his message to the people contra to the status quo of the time. I no longer think that. ive always been weary of the absence of any real presence of women in christianitys origin story. woman is painted as the temptress as if men have no control or personal responsibility for their actions. it wasn't adam who caused the downfall of men but eve with her wicked ways and her listening to the snake. does anyone ever ask themselves WHY the snake has been cast as eves temptor? why it wasn't adam it approached? do you think it is because eve, and by extension all women, is/are weak? does anyone ever think about what came before christianity and judaism? or do people simply take what they've been taught on faith? that this is what we are taught, this is always the way its been(for the past 2000 odd years anyway) and so this is how it shall be?
I don't think it was ignorance at all...Ignorance to me says they were given evidence to the contrary and chose to ignore it. Science just hadn't gotten far enough yet. We barely had begun self realization in the time of the greeks...we just couldn't get their fast enough as a species...
People today who choose to ignore the scientific knowledge gained are ignorant, willfully so.
I can't believe this is a debate. Whether you believe in a god of creation or not, how can one look at the evidence for all things evolution and deny them. A god who can create a universe and supposedly gives his creations free will could have also set in motion the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. Those that deny evolution in my opinion put limits on the God they believe to be infallible...isn't that a kind of blasphemy?
The basic premise of Evolution vs. Creationism is that Evolution provides a Science behind it that supports its theories. Creationism does nothing to provide proof of its case, rather, its main (and only) arguement is to try to dispell the Science that backs Evolution. Well, that and the proof, 'Because it says so in the Bible'.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
the only Christian conflict I have heard of in the middle east is that Christain Pastor who is being held by a muslin court for being a Christain and not a muslim.
Godfather.
i'm pretty sure george w. bush claimed to be a christian when he, completely unprovoked and predicated upon lies, went into iraq with guns ablazin' and bombed the shit out of the place.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
The fact that this debate is still being carried out is an argument for devolution (aka, de-evolution).
... They tell us that We lost our tails Evolving up From little snails. I say it's all Just wind in sails. We're pinheads now, We are not whole. We're pinheads all... "Jocko Homo" - Monkey men all In business suits. Teachers and critics All dance the poot. God made man, but He used the monkey to do it. Apes in the plan, we're all here to prove it. I can walk like an ape, talk like an ape, do what a monkey do. God made man, but a monkey applied the glue.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
The fact that this debate is still being carried out is an argument for devolution (aka, de-evolution).
... They tell us that We lost our tails Evolving up From little snails. I say it's all Just wind in sails. We're pinheads now, We are not whole. We're pinheads all... "Jocko Homo" - Monkey men all In business suits. Teachers and critics All dance the poot. God made man, but He used the monkey to do it. Apes in the plan, we're all here to prove it. I can walk like an ape, talk like an ape, do what a monkey do. God made man, but a monkey applied the glue.
Gabba Gabba we accept you one of us one of us!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
2000 years ago people were more ignorant.. and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense... I simply mean there were a lot of unknowns... way more than we deal with today. mankind has progressed in leaps and bounds and things we take for granted today would have been seen as witchcraft not so long ago. imo we don't really know what people 2000 years ago thought of 'religion'. I use to allow that jesus christ was probably jewish and that he started to preach his message to the people contra to the status quo of the time. I no longer think that. ive always been weary of the absence of any real presence of women in christianitys origin story. woman is painted as the temptress as if men have no control or personal responsibility for their actions. it wasn't adam who caused the downfall of men but eve with her wicked ways and her listening to the snake. does anyone ever ask themselves WHY the snake has been cast as eves temptor? why it wasn't adam it approached? do you think it is because eve, and by extension all women, is/are weak? does anyone ever think about what came before christianity and judaism? or do people simply take what they've been taught on faith? that this is what we are taught, this is always the way its been(for the past 2000 odd years anyway) and so this is how it shall be?
I don't think it was ignorance at all...Ignorance to me says they were given evidence to the contrary and chose to ignore it. Science just hadn't gotten far enough yet. We barely had begun self realization in the time of the greeks...we just couldn't get their fast enough as a species...
People today who choose to ignore the scientific knowledge gained are ignorant, willfully so.
I can't believe this is a debate. Whether you believe in a god of creation or not, how can one look at the evidence for all things evolution and deny them. A god who can create a universe and supposedly gives his creations free will could have also set in motion the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. Those that deny evolution in my opinion put limits on the God they believe to be infallible...isn't that a kind of blasphemy?
aah yes the greeks.. those great philosophers,lawyers and fornicators of young boys... the polygod worshippers, whose gods we dismiss as myth and legend... ive always been curious about this.. that one civilisations god/s can be dismissed as myth with one hand as we embrace a monotheistic God with the other. why is this so??? I grew up reading all the polythsistic myths... they fascinated me.. they still do. I never took them as truth as ive never taken, despite a period of agnostic searching when I was younger, the monotheistic God/s as truth.
anyways back to the ignorance thing.... ignorance is simply not knowing... not necessarily disregarding evidence shown. that was the angle I was coming at.. that's why i clarified i didn't mean it in a derogatory way...
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i'm an evolution man myself, and I get that people believe in creationism. what I don't get are the people that joke about evolution with comments like, haha oh yeah my great grandfather was a frog chuckle, or haha yeah i'm descended from squirrels and monkeys what a joke....only to turn around and say that it's totally obvious and logical that an invisible man in the sky snapped his fingers and made everything so. I understand having faith, but that shit just makes zero sense to me.
if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
i'm an evolution man myself, and I get that people believe in creationism. what I don't get are the people that joke about evolution with comments like, haha oh yeah my great grandfather was a frog chuckle, or haha yeah i'm descended from squirrels and monkeys what a joke....only to turn around and say that it's totally obvious and logical that an invisible man in the sky snapped his fingers and made everything so. I understand having faith, but that shit just makes zero sense to me.
Yeah, I think you can have faith in some higher power or god or God or like me, just be satisfied with the notion that their are some things in that universe that are mysterious- you can do any or all of that and still understand and accept the empirical evidence that solidly explains the process of evolution in nature. I suppose anyone can deny that evidence as easily they could say that the world is flat or that pink elephants run down Main Street at noon everyday but few will take them seriously.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Edit above- ...or not. It amazes me to discover that 46% of Americans believe in creationism. WTF? Only 15% believe in evolution without any divine intervention? Really?? :-O
46% Americans Believe In Creationism According To Latest Gallup Poll
A new Gallup poll measures Americans' belief in the origin of human beings, and how this belief correlates with church attendance, political party affiliation and education level. The poll was conducted by interviewing a random sample of 1,012 adults, aged 18 and older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia.
Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention. As the graph below shows, the percent of Americans who believe in creationism has increased slightly by 2 percent over the last 30 years. The percent of Americans who believe in evolution has also increased by 6 percent over the last 30 years while the percent of Americans who believe in theistic evolution has decreased by 6 percent over the same time period.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The only thing more disturbing that that is the fact that the percentage of people who believe that sort of crazy has gone UP instead of down over the last 30 years. I mean, young earth creationism is simply inexcusably idiotic. It's beyond any sort of reason whatsoever.
2000 years ago people were more ignorant.. and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense... I simply mean there were a lot of unknowns... way more than we deal with today. mankind has progressed in leaps and bounds and things we take for granted today would have been seen as witchcraft not so long ago. imo we don't really know what people 2000 years ago thought of 'religion'. I use to allow that jesus christ was probably jewish and that he started to preach his message to the people contra to the status quo of the time. I no longer think that. ive always been weary of the absence of any real presence of women in christianitys origin story. woman is painted as the temptress as if men have no control or personal responsibility for their actions. it wasn't adam who caused the downfall of men but eve with her wicked ways and her listening to the snake. does anyone ever ask themselves WHY the snake has been cast as eves temptor? why it wasn't adam it approached? do you think it is because eve, and by extension all women, is/are weak? does anyone ever think about what came before christianity and judaism? or do people simply take what they've been taught on faith? that this is what we are taught, this is always the way its been(for the past 2000 odd years anyway) and so this is how it shall be?
I don't think it was ignorance at all...Ignorance to me says they were given evidence to the contrary and chose to ignore it. Science just hadn't gotten far enough yet. We barely had begun self realization in the time of the greeks...we just couldn't get their fast enough as a species...
People today who choose to ignore the scientific knowledge gained are ignorant, willfully so.
I can't believe this is a debate. Whether you believe in a god of creation or not, how can one look at the evidence for all things evolution and deny them. A god who can create a universe and supposedly gives his creations free will could have also set in motion the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. Those that deny evolution in my opinion put limits on the God they believe to be infallible...isn't that a kind of blasphemy?
aah yes the greeks.. those great philosophers,lawyers and fornicators of young boys... the polygod worshippers, whose gods we dismiss as myth and legend... ive always been curious about this.. that one civilisations god/s can be dismissed as myth with one hand as we embrace a monotheistic God with the other. why is this so??? I grew up reading all the polythsistic myths... they fascinated me.. they still do. I never took them as truth as ive never taken, despite a period of agnostic searching when I was younger, the monotheistic God/s as truth.
anyways back to the ignorance thing.... ignorance is simply not knowing... not necessarily disregarding evidence shown. that was the angle I was coming at.. that's why i clarified i didn't mean it in a derogatory way...
CF. Correlated Greek mythology with today's god in middle school. When teacher said the Greeks used different gods to explain nature the light bulb came on.
Yes, this new Cosmos is a wonderful show, I really like Neil's style. It's a shame that he needs to spend time dispelling ridiculous myths though. I'm not sure anybody who is foolish enough to believe the earth is 6000 years old would be swayed by anything he said anyway. You've pretty much already spat in the face of logic by that point, so logical arguments are pointless.
The bit where they imagined what it would be like inside a black hole was immense.
2000 years ago people were more ignorant.. and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense... I simply mean there were a lot of unknowns... way more than we deal with today. mankind has progressed in leaps and bounds and things we take for granted today would have been seen as witchcraft not so long ago. imo we don't really know what people 2000 years ago thought of 'religion'. I use to allow that jesus christ was probably jewish and that he started to preach his message to the people contra to the status quo of the time. I no longer think that. ive always been weary of the absence of any real presence of women in christianitys origin story. woman is painted as the temptress as if men have no control or personal responsibility for their actions. it wasn't adam who caused the downfall of men but eve with her wicked ways and her listening to the snake. does anyone ever ask themselves WHY the snake has been cast as eves temptor? why it wasn't adam it approached? do you think it is because eve, and by extension all women, is/are weak? does anyone ever think about what came before christianity and judaism? or do people simply take what they've been taught on faith? that this is what we are taught, this is always the way its been(for the past 2000 odd years anyway) and so this is how it shall be?
I don't think it was ignorance at all...Ignorance to me says they were given evidence to the contrary and chose to ignore it. Science just hadn't gotten far enough yet. We barely had begun self realization in the time of the greeks...we just couldn't get their fast enough as a species...
People today who choose to ignore the scientific knowledge gained are ignorant, willfully so.
I can't believe this is a debate. Whether you believe in a god of creation or not, how can one look at the evidence for all things evolution and deny them. A god who can create a universe and supposedly gives his creations free will could have also set in motion the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. Those that deny evolution in my opinion put limits on the God they believe to be infallible...isn't that a kind of blasphemy?
aah yes the greeks.. those great philosophers,lawyers and fornicators of young boys... the polygod worshippers, whose gods we dismiss as myth and legend... ive always been curious about this.. that one civilisations god/s can be dismissed as myth with one hand as we embrace a monotheistic God with the other. why is this so??? I grew up reading all the polythsistic myths... they fascinated me.. they still do. I never took them as truth as ive never taken, despite a period of agnostic searching when I was younger, the monotheistic God/s as truth.
anyways back to the ignorance thing.... ignorance is simply not knowing... not necessarily disregarding evidence shown. that was the angle I was coming at.. that's why i clarified i didn't mean it in a derogatory way...
CF. Correlated Greek mythology with today's god in middle school. When teacher said the Greeks used different gods to explain nature the light bulb came on.
oh I know the ancients used gods to explain natural phenomena and defeats in war. as a narrative it makes sense to me that the ancients had different gods dependent upon what the heck is was they wanted or were trying to explain.. it just amuses me that monotheistic religionists dismiss them in preference for a single entity. as for myself I do not discriminate...i dismiss ALL gods/goddesses and the powers given them equally.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Comments
You are correct, sir... Public Schools do not have teacher lead prayers because Public Schools are funded by the Public (Taxes). If you want everyone's taxes to fund Public School... then, you would have to allow ALL Religions to be represented, equally. This would mean your child would have to participate in the Islamic call to prayer, The Festivus Feats of Strength, the Satanic Pentangle Ritual and every other religious rite. I'm guessing, you would not be okay with that... right?
The way you can have your child participate in a teacher lead Christian prayer... enroll him/her in a PRIVATE Christian school or home school him/her.
...
Also... I'm not a theologian, but, I'm pretty sure that GAY is not a religion. And the Gay community is not requiring your child to participate in their after school activities. Your child can attend or start a Christian Bible Study after school club if he/she wants. But, you would have to also allow any religious clubs on the public school grounds. It means, you cannot put a stop to the Islamic Koran Studies club or the Jewish Torah Club or the Holy Satanic Order of the Goat Club also using school facilities.
...
And you missed my point on Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a nation where Islam is the National Religion. It is a Theocracy where religious law and law of the land are intermingled. The point being, Theorcaries are not good for free people. By having America become a Theocracy... even when it is YOUR religion in place... it would cease being America. The founding Fathers placed the Freedom of Religion FIRST because of the way the Church of England ruled over the English colonies.
..
Again... the War Against Christianity is in your head. It was most likely put in there by your television set. It does not exist. We don't want any one religion to rule over all of us. We want to let the individual choose his/her religion... not a directive from the state.
That is the point.
Hail, Hail!!!
All, and none.
(I can't stand - ie, figure out - this new quote feature!)
rgambs, some could apply your brush to the Muslim faith. To other faiths. And wrongly so...maybe misguidedly so?
I know many decent people who are Christian. Who try, like the rest of us poor slobs, to live honorable lives, treat others with respect, and just do what's right.
I agree. I have many friends I can discuss religion with. By far my favorites is an Air Force Chaplain. He has taught me a lot about religion and a lot about Christianity. And he does it without preaching to me or trying to get me onboard. I have so much respect for him because he shows so much respect towards me and towards people of other religions.
He also understands how Christianity gets a bad rap... mostly here in America. It is not because of Christianity and more due to the intolerance of Christians. He said if more Christians acted more Christ-like... that is, following Christ's teaching of love, tolerance, acceptance and forgiveness, more people would choose Christianity as their religion. It is the selish/self centered/self righteous acts of Christians that turn people away from Christ.
And I have to come clean... many of the thoughts on Christianity, i have heard from him. He is a good man.
Hail, Hail!!!
i didn't say christians are filthy perverts, i said their holy book is a filthy perversion.
very cool reply Riotgirl thank you,so it sounds like no one belief is forced on any student, I've just been schooled.
Godfather.
Godfather: I agree most Christians are ordinary decent folks like the rest of us. But there is a small but very influential minority who do certainly force their beliefs - and since we're talking about creationism and evolution here, this article on the HBO show Questioning Darwin is a good illustration of certain Christians forcing their point in frightening and damaging ways.
A couple of key lines from the article that illustrate how beliefs are forced, and held in place by promoting ignorance and fear:
"For creationists, intellectual inquiry is a sin, and anyone who dares to doubt the wisdom of their doctrine invites eternal damnation. That’s the perverse brilliance of creationism, the key to its self-perpetuation: First it locks kids in the dungeon of ignorance and dogmatic fundamentalism. Then it throws away the key...."
"Creationists teach their children not only that evolution is evil, but that studying evolution, even thinking about it, is a sin that leads the soul to eternal damnation."
"Creationists reject not just evolution but most of the Enlightenment and pretty much all intellectual development since. Rather than celebrate the brilliance of the human mind, they disparage free thought as dangerous and sinful. Instead of extolling the virtues of creativity and imagination, they malign all unorthodox ideas as immoral and wicked... [Creationism] turns our greatest ability—to reason—into our greatest enemy. Using our brains, according to creationism, will lead us to sin; only mindless piety can keep us on the track to salvation."
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
2000 years ago people were more ignorant.. and I don't mean that in a derogatory sense... I simply mean there were a lot of unknowns... way more than we deal with today. mankind has progressed in leaps and bounds and things we take for granted today would have been seen as witchcraft not so long ago. imo we don't really know what people 2000 years ago thought of 'religion'. I use to allow that jesus christ was probably jewish and that he started to preach his message to the people contra to the status quo of the time. I no longer think that. ive always been weary of the absence of any real presence of women in christianitys origin story. woman is painted as the temptress as if men have no control or personal responsibility for their actions. it wasn't adam who caused the downfall of men but eve with her wicked ways and her listening to the snake. does anyone ever ask themselves WHY the snake has been cast as eves temptor? why it wasn't adam it approached? do you think it is because eve, and by extension all women, is/are weak? does anyone ever think about what came before christianity and judaism? or do people simply take what they've been taught on faith? that this is what we are taught, this is always the way its been(for the past 2000 odd years anyway) and so this is how it shall be?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
People today who choose to ignore the scientific knowledge gained are ignorant, willfully so.
I can't believe this is a debate. Whether you believe in a god of creation or not, how can one look at the evidence for all things evolution and deny them. A god who can create a universe and supposedly gives his creations free will could have also set in motion the ability to adapt to an ever changing environment. Those that deny evolution in my opinion put limits on the God they believe to be infallible...isn't that a kind of blasphemy?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Hail, Hail!!!
They tell us that We lost our tails Evolving up From little snails. I say it's all Just wind in sails.
We're pinheads now, We are not whole. We're pinheads all...
"Jocko Homo" - Monkey men all In business suits. Teachers and critics All dance the poot.
God made man, but He used the monkey to do it. Apes in the plan, we're all here to prove it. I can walk like an ape, talk like an ape, do what a monkey do. God made man, but a monkey applied the glue.
Hail, Hail!!!
we accept you
one of us
one of us!
aah yes the greeks.. those great philosophers,lawyers and fornicators of young boys... the polygod worshippers, whose gods we dismiss as myth and legend... ive always been curious about this.. that one civilisations god/s can be dismissed as myth with one hand as we embrace a monotheistic God with the other. why is this so??? I grew up reading all the polythsistic myths... they fascinated me.. they still do. I never took them as truth as ive never taken, despite a period of agnostic searching when I was younger, the monotheistic God/s as truth.
anyways back to the ignorance thing.... ignorance is simply not knowing... not necessarily disregarding evidence shown. that was the angle I was coming at.. that's why i clarified i didn't mean it in a derogatory way...
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html
46% Americans Believe In Creationism According To Latest Gallup Poll
A new Gallup poll measures Americans' belief in the origin of human beings, and how this belief correlates with church attendance, political party affiliation and education level. The poll was conducted by interviewing a random sample of 1,012 adults, aged 18 and older, living in all 50 U.S. states and the District of Columbia.
Forty six percent Americans believed in creationism, 32 percent believed in theistic evolution and 15 percent believed in evolution without any divine intervention. As the graph below shows, the percent of Americans who believe in creationism has increased slightly by 2 percent over the last 30 years. The percent of Americans who believe in evolution has also increased by 6 percent over the last 30 years while the percent of Americans who believe in theistic evolution has decreased by 6 percent over the same time period.
The only thing more disturbing that that is the fact that the percentage of people who believe that sort of crazy has gone UP instead of down over the last 30 years. I mean, young earth creationism is simply inexcusably idiotic. It's beyond any sort of reason whatsoever.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
The bit where they imagined what it would be like inside a black hole was immense.
oh I know the ancients used gods to explain natural phenomena and defeats in war. as a narrative it makes sense to me that the ancients had different gods dependent upon what the heck is was they wanted or were trying to explain.. it just amuses me that monotheistic religionists dismiss them in preference for a single entity. as for myself I do not discriminate...i dismiss ALL gods/goddesses and the powers given them equally.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/fa1a1c8fb7/creationist-cosmos
Oops... I mean heaven. ;-)