Evolution v. Creationism Debate

hedonist

know1 said:

I believe in both. Not sure why anyone wouldn't.

For the same reasons anyone might believe in one or the other, or neither.

It's so personal for each of us...and I respect that. There's much that can't be explained (yet?), so...I'm open.

know1

brianlux said:

know1 said:

riotgrl said:

Understandable that, in earlier times before rational thought/scientific method, people would develop ideas about how/why we are here but for me it is time to let science explain creation/evolution.

So does anyone else beside me think that in 2000 years or so from now we might look back at 2014 as a time before "rational thought/scientific method" and that we had to "develop ideas about how/why we are here"?

I definitely think that way. That's a long time from now and progress continually happens at faster and faster rates.

I don't think so. I think in 2000 years (if, by great fortune and much effort we're still here) we will have a better scientific understanding of life and the cosmos (not to mention the comic) and and even deeper appreciation for the myths (which will be taught in classes called "Creation Myths 101") that humans have created throughout the millennia.

And I believe that a lot of what we accept now as scientific fact will be looked upon as myth in 2000 years.

dignin

Idris said:

Started listening (15 mins ago, so missed a lot of the 'debate' so far)

Gotta say, not impressed by any of em (yet), but I'll keep listening for a bit.

know1 said:

brianlux said:

know1 said:

riotgrl said:

Understandable that, in earlier times before rational thought/scientific method, people would develop ideas about how/why we are here but for me it is time to let science explain creation/evolution.

So does anyone else beside me think that in 2000 years or so from now we might look back at 2014 as a time before "rational thought/scientific method" and that we had to "develop ideas about how/why we are here"?

I definitely think that way. That's a long time from now and progress continually happens at faster and faster rates.

I don't think so. I think in 2000 years (if, by great fortune and much effort we're still here) we will have a better scientific understanding of life and the cosmos (not to mention the comic) and and even deeper appreciation for the myths (which will be taught in classes called "Creation Myths 101") that humans have created throughout the millennia.

And I believe that a lot of what we accept now as scientific fact will be looked upon as myth in 2000 years.

I think you may be looking for a different word, like maybe wrong or mistake. Myth more accurately describes something else, like stories that may have occurred in the bible.


myth
miTH/Submit
noun
1.
a traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

brianlux

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

know1 said:

riotgrl said:

Understandable that, in earlier times before rational thought/scientific method, people would develop ideas about how/why we are here but for me it is time to let science explain creation/evolution.

So does anyone else beside me think that in 2000 years or so from now we might look back at 2014 as a time before "rational thought/scientific method" and that we had to "develop ideas about how/why we are here"?

I definitely think that way. That's a long time from now and progress continually happens at faster and faster rates.

I don't think so. I think in 2000 years (if, by great fortune and much effort we're still here) we will have a better scientific understanding of life and the cosmos (not to mention the comic) and and even deeper appreciation for the myths (which will be taught in classes called "Creation Myths 101") that humans have created throughout the millennia.

Have either of you read anything from Joseph Campbell about human mythology? The Power of Myth is a great documentary/book about the universality of myths and how these myths are integrated into our culture and how humans then use these myths to recognize universal truths. Sounds very similar to the metaphors/parables/life lessons/etc. that are common amongst all the world's religions. The following quote is from Campbell:

"God is a metaphor for a mystery that absolutely transcends all human categories of thought, even the categories of being and non-being. Those are categories of thought. I mean it's as simple as that. So it depends on how much you want to think about it. Whether it's doing you any good. Whether it is putting you in touch with the mystery that's the ground of your own being. If it isn't, well, it's a lie. So half the people in the world are religious people who think that their metaphors are facts. Those are what we call theists. The other half are people who know that the metaphors are not facts. And so, they're lies. Those are the atheists."

Campbell then goes on to say that the function of mythology is to educate our young and define their path/journey in that particular society so we are able to make sense of our world. He has a pretty interesting take on the role of mythology and religion.

Oh yeah, Campbell is great. In 2000 years we'll still be reading Campbell, for sure!

Last-12-Exit

know1 said:

brianlux said:

know1 said:

riotgrl said:

Understandable that, in earlier times before rational thought/scientific method, people would develop ideas about how/why we are here but for me it is time to let science explain creation/evolution.

So does anyone else beside me think that in 2000 years or so from now we might look back at 2014 as a time before "rational thought/scientific method" and that we had to "develop ideas about how/why we are here"?

I definitely think that way. That's a long time from now and progress continually happens at faster and faster rates.

I don't think so. I think in 2000 years (if, by great fortune and much effort we're still here) we will have a better scientific understanding of life and the cosmos (not to mention the comic) and and even deeper appreciation for the myths (which will be taught in classes called "Creation Myths 101") that humans have created throughout the millennia.

And I believe that a lot of what we accept now as scientific fact will be looked upon as myth in 2000 years.

Like what?

dignin

Reminds of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMvMb90hem8

grooveme

brianlux said:

In light of the science I've read, to me it seems pretty darned reasonable to believe that life evolves. There's nothing written in stone that says there isn't some creative comic being that set life and the universe into motion but my feeling is that if someone says they understand that and can define it as created by something they believe to be God or a god or gods then their God/god/Gods is/are too small. (If that makes sense.)

Agreed. I have a degree in biology and studied evolutionary biology. Life evolves. That is undisputed amongst educated people. Why it does or what originated life to start with, that is not a question that science has answered or can answer, most likely

know1

Last-12-Exit said:

know1 said:

brianlux said:

know1 said:

riotgrl said:

Understandable that, in earlier times before rational thought/scientific method, people would develop ideas about how/why we are here but for me it is time to let science explain creation/evolution.

So does anyone else beside me think that in 2000 years or so from now we might look back at 2014 as a time before "rational thought/scientific method" and that we had to "develop ideas about how/why we are here"?

I definitely think that way. That's a long time from now and progress continually happens at faster and faster rates.

I don't think so. I think in 2000 years (if, by great fortune and much effort we're still here) we will have a better scientific understanding of life and the cosmos (not to mention the comic) and and even deeper appreciation for the myths (which will be taught in classes called "Creation Myths 101") that humans have created throughout the millennia.

And I believe that a lot of what we accept now as scientific fact will be looked upon as myth in 2000 years.

Like what?

How should I know? But 2000 years from now, things are going to look a lot different than they do now. And our perspective will change dramatically.

Do you think the people 2000 years ago felt what they believed were myths?

Cosmo

I think what we need to get away from is the belief that all Christians believe what these fundamentalist Christians believe... that the word of God was written in the Bible and it is the absolute truth.
Many Christians i know find some truths in the Bible, but, understand its origin... from tales of ancient societies, repeated through generations and finally, written into text form. People find inspiration, comfort, faith and joy in these words. It is the fundamentalists that are screwing shit up.
In other words, you can have both religion and science in your life... or you can choose either one. But, that is your life. Don't feel compelled to chose for others.

Cosmo

P.S. The Creation Museum is on my 'must-see' of museums... after the Smithonian Aviation and Aerospace Museum and the Museo del Prado, Madrid to see the Hieronymous Bosch triptych. I want to see Adam and Eve riding a Tyrannasaurus Rex to the Tree of Knowledge to have a conversation with that talking snake.

know1

Cosmo said:

I think what we need to get away from is the belief that all Christians believe what these fundamentalist Christians believe... that the word of God was written in the Bible and it is the absolute truth.
Many Christians i know find some truths in the Bible, but, understand its origin... from tales of ancient societies, repeated through generations and finally, written into text form. People find inspiration, comfort, faith and joy in these words. It is the fundamentalists that are screwing shit up.
In other words, you can have both religion and science in your life... or you can choose either one. But, that is your life. Don't feel compelled to chose for others.

Well said. I agree.

antares434

It is silly to call this a debate. It's just as useful to have a debate on the invisible purple dragon in my garage and its impact on evolution. In case you were wondering the dragon does really exist and he's friendly.

Cosmo

Let me add a point of the other side...
I think Christians need to understand that not everyone is Christian. You don't need to save us from anything. Just let us find our own way.
Also, you are not being persecuted in America. There is no War on Christmas and there is no War on Christianity. You can pray all you want in school... just don't expect the rest of us to have to join along with you. Take the advice of your own Saviour and "... whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret". You are free to set up Nativity Scenes in your front yards and at your churches but, not on taxpayer property. Sure, you pay taxes... but so do Jews and Muslims and Hindi and Atheists and Festivusians and Satanists... so you should expect a minora and a Festivus Pole and Santa Claus and Krampus and Satan to find a place along side the baby Jesus outside the county courthouse and not get upset when it happens. And i would suggest that maybe if you try living by the Ten Commandments, so you won't have to have monuments placed everywhere to remind you what they are.
Finally, You are free to teach and learn about Creationism... but, on your church's or private school's dime, not on the taxpayers. You may believe Creationism is a science, but it is not recognized as a science and therefore, should not be taught in public schools as a science. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it real.
...
peace...

grooveme

Cosmo said:

Let me add a point of the other side...
I think Christians need to understand that not everyone is Christian. You don't need to save us from anything. Just let us find our own way.
Also, you are not being persecuted in America. There is no War on Christmas and there is no War on Christianity. You can pray all you want in school... just don't expect the rest of us to have to join along with you. Take the advice of your own Saviour and "... whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret". You are free to set up Nativity Scenes in your front yards and at your churches but, not on taxpayer property. Sure, you pay taxes... but so do Jews and Muslims and Hindi and Atheists and Festivusians and Satanists... so you should expect a minora and a Festivus Pole and Santa Claus and Krampus and Satan to find a place along side the baby Jesus outside the county courthouse and not get upset when it happens. And i would suggest that maybe if you try living by the Ten Commandments, so you won't have to have monuments placed everywhere to remind you what they are.
Finally, You are free to teach and learn about Creationism... but, on your church's or private school's dime, not on the taxpayers. You may believe Creationism is a science, but it is not recognized as a science and therefore, should not be taught in public schools as a science. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it real.
...
peace...

Very well said

backseatLover12

What is it about man-made religion that makes people think that belief equals fact? Creationism wouldn't be in text books in (in Texas, right?) if so many didn't equate it to reality. Yet, it's a man made thing. The story of creationism was created by man. Yet, it's no more than a story and belief in something that can never be proven. Unlike science.

Last-12-Exit

backseatLover12 said:

What is it about man-made religion that makes people think that belief equals fact? Creationism wouldn't be in text books in (in Texas, right?) if so many didn't equate it to reality. Yet, it's a man made thing. The story of creationism was created by man. Yet, it's no more than a story and belief in something that can never be proven. Unlike science.

Religion is also man made.

callen

Be interesting to see if this debate changes public perception. Ham put forth good effort but think he failed in what he attempted to accomplish. Nye was cool and collected. Thought it was good Nye said he didn't know where matter came from. We don't truly know. We do though know earth is more than 6000 years old. Know 1 made interesting post earlier. "Wonder what we will think in 2000 years". You never know. Well unless we wake up in hell or heaven in few years. Hey we're are those 72 virgins!!! I Kid babe, your all I want or can handle. :x

Cosmo

callen said:

Be interesting to see if this debate changes public perception. Ham put forth good effort but think he failed in what he attempted to accomplish. Nye was cool and collected. Thought it was good Nye said he didn't know where matter came from. We don't truly know. We do though know earth is more than 6000 years old. Know 1 made interesting post earlier. "Wonder what we will think in 2000 years". You never know. Well unless we wake up in hell or heaven in few years. Hey we're are those 72 virgins!!! I Kid babe, your all I want or can handle. :x

...
There is a post earlier in thie thread that sums it all up. The question. What would it take to change your mind?
The Fundamentalist said there was nothing that would ever convince him and Bill Nye said provide the evidence and he would change his mind immediately.
That is the debate in a nutshell. While Science seeks to answer questions... which leads to more questions and more answers... religious fundamentalism is frozen in time and unwilling to see any other point of view.

brianlux

Cosmo said:

I think what we need to get away from is the belief that all Christians believe what these fundamentalist Christians believe... that the word of God was written in the Bible and it is the absolute truth.
Many Christians i know find some truths in the Bible, but, understand its origin... from tales of ancient societies, repeated through generations and finally, written into text form. People find inspiration, comfort, faith and joy in these words. It is the fundamentalists that are screwing shit up.
In other words, you can have both religion and science in your life... or you can choose either one. But, that is your life. Don't feel compelled to chose for others.

^^^ This is so true and I know several people who have both a science background and faith based philosophy. Personally, I like the mystery of the unknown but I have no quarrel with those who have differing faiths as long as they accept my beliefs (or lack thereof) as well.

Last-12-Exit

know1 said:

I believe in both. Not sure why anyone wouldn't.

Because I don't believe in god.