Hear the fans - Bring Pearl Jam To Israel

Byrnzie

Yeah, I'm sure the band would love to play in a country that routinely commits war crimes against civilians.

Meanwhile...

• Israeli strikes on Gaza accelerated overnight. The Palestinian health ministry puts the number killed in Gaza at more than 80, including at least 20 children. A family of 8 was killed in an Israeli strike on a house in Khan Younis and a group of 8 or 9 teens were killed at a cafe while watching the World Cup.

• Gaza's health ministry says 22 Palestinian children have been killed since Israel's operation protective edge, was launched against Gaza on Tuesday.



In the first two days of the offensive 15 women and children were killed amid claims that in four air strikes only women and children were killed. According to an emergency services spokesman, Ashraf al-Qudra, in one incident a missile struck a house in Al-Maghazi, a beachside refugee camp near Deir al-Balah in central Gaza, killing a mother and her four children. Earlier, another two women and four children died in a series of raids to the north and east of Gaza City.


Yep, sounds like just the place for Pearl Jam. I'm sure they'd love an opportunity to go and perform in that racist lunatic state.

JimmyV

Pearl Jam plays North America, South America, Europe, and Australia. It has been 11 years since they played anywhere else - Japan in 2003. (Or since Hawaii in 2006 if you want to differentiate that, which I wouldn't.) I don't see them altering their well-established tour habits at this point in their career to play a show in Israel. Not while the occupation goes on, not while there are atrocities committed by both sides, and most likely not ever. They may prove me wrong someday but on this occasion I do not believe they are going to.

Byrnzie

PJ_Soul said:

Fence sitting?? What, I should pick a side just for the hell of it, even though I think they are both equally wrong?

Gaza attack 2008-2009: 1,600 Palestinian civilian dead - 3 Israeli dead
Gaza attack 2014: [So far] Over 90 Palestinian civilian dead - 0 Israeli dead

One side is occupying the other, and is supported and funded by the Worlds only superpower.

PJ Soul says it's a level playing field, and that they're both equally wrong.

PJ_Soul

Byrnzie said:

PJ_Soul said:

Fence sitting?? What, I should pick a side just for the hell of it, even though I think they are both equally wrong?

Gaza attack 2008-2009: 1,600 Palestinian civilian dead - 3 Israeli dead
Gaza attack 2014: [So far] Over 90 Palestinian civilian dead - 0 Israeli dead

One side is occupying the other, and is supported and funded by the Worlds only superpower.

PJ Soul says it's a level playing field, and that they're both equally wrong.

I never said it was a level playing field. Don't make things up and pin them on me please. But I said that I think they are both equally wrong in their own ways.This is not an offensive or controversial comment. They are all wrong. They all react badly to everything and in the precise way that will make things worse no matter what. Wrong wrong wrong.

Byrnzie

PJ_Soul said:

Byrnzie said:

PJ_Soul said:

Fence sitting?? What, I should pick a side just for the hell of it, even though I think they are both equally wrong?

Gaza attack 2008-2009: 1,600 Palestinian civilian dead - 3 Israeli dead
Gaza attack 2014: [So far] Over 90 Palestinian civilian dead - 0 Israeli dead

One side is occupying the other, and is supported and funded by the Worlds only superpower.

PJ Soul says it's a level playing field, and that they're both equally wrong.

I never said it was a level playing field. Don't make things up and pin them on me please. But I said that I think they are both equally wrong in their own ways.

Same thing

Byrnzie

PJ_Soul said:

They are all wrong. They all react badly to everything and in the precise way that will make things worse no matter what. Wrong wrong wrong.

How would you react to 47 years of illegal occupation and land-theft?
How would you react to daily humiliation at check points, verbal abuse, beatings, stabbings, and shootings, and the destruction of your property?
Last month two unarmed Palestinian teenagers were shot dead at a protest by an Israeli sniper and the IDF sniper was let off with a warning, amidst complete silence from the Western media. How would you react to that?

Luckytwn1

Byrnzie said:

PJ_Soul said:

Fence sitting?? What, I should pick a side just for the hell of it, even though I think they are both equally wrong?

Gaza attack 2008-2009: 1,600 Palestinian civilian dead - 3 Israeli dead
Gaza attack 2014: [So far] Over 90 Palestinian civilian dead - 0 Israeli dead

This is a complete bunch of nonsense. There are no Israeli casualties because of Iron Dome, otherwise there would be mass casualties. Israel is actually practicing restraint. Let's imagine that an armed group was firing missiles at NY, London, or Paris. What would the response be? Surely, if the US was attacked, there would be a response that left more than 90 people dead. And let's not forget, the reason why civilians are getting caught in the crossfire is because Hamas is hiding weapons among them.

I also saw references to the recent killings. I condemn the killing of the Palestinian in the strongest terms. The difference is the people who killed the Palestinians were widely condemned by the Israeli government and the vast majority of Israeli citizens. The murderers were captured and will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Contrast that with Hamas, which is the government in Gaza, applauding the kidnapping of the three Israeli boys and the killers there have mysteriously vanished. Every day Israeli doctors treat Palestinians. Israeli hospitals would not think of turning away a sick person, regardless of religion or nationality. Now let's suppose an Israeli needed medical treatment in Gaza, Syria, Iran, etc?

Those are the facts. I try to stay out of arguing with people who don't have a clue but what's being said here is too much to ignore. As far as acts playing there, the list of acts playing in Israel including many of the world's biggest touring acts like the Stones and Justin Timberlake (and I believe close PJ bud Uncle Neil next week) is far longer than the list of artists boycotting.

Let me add that when I was in Amsterdam to see PJ, I went to all of the Holocaust memorial sites in the city. 108,000 of the 140,000 Jews in the Netherlands were murdered by the Nazis. Now it sounds like you'd like that to happen again but the lessons have been learned. Israel is a tiny country and if they didn't have the strongest military per capita in the world, the countries surrounding Israel wouldn't think twice about destroying it. Israel is doing what it must to survive and that is why it is backed by all of the world's democracies...because they would all do the same thing under the same circumstances. It's that simple.

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

This is a complete bunch of nonsense. There are no Israeli casualties because of Iron Dome, otherwise there would be mass casualties.

Iron Dome wasn't in place during Operation Cast Lead - it was installed in 2011, yet just 3 Israeli's were killed during that massacre of Gazans, in which 1,600 Palestinian civilians were killed, including over 400 children. How do you explain that?

Luckytwn1 said:

Israel is actually practicing restraint.

Israel has never practiced restraint, which is why 90 civilians have been murdered by Israel in the past 3 days. Dropping bombs on densely populated residential areas, and deliberately shooting unarmed civilians, does not constitute restraint. They are war crimes.

Luckytwn1 said:

Let's imagine that an armed group was firing missiles at NY, London, or Paris. What would the response be?

Short-range missiles from a few miles outside of those cities? The perpetrators would be apprehended. I doubt that bombs would be dropped on entire residential neighbourhoods. Do you?

Luckytwn1 said:

I also saw references to the recent killings. I condemn the killing of the Palestinian in the strongest terms. The difference is the people who killed the Palestinians were widely condemned by the Israeli government and the vast majority of Israeli citizens. The murderers were captured and will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Do you condemn the killing of two unarmed Palestinian teenagers by an Israeli sniper in May? Where was your outrage over that? You don't give a fuck about the murder of Palestinians, do you?

On average one Palestinian child has been killed every 3 days for the past 13 years by the Israeli's. Where's your outrage over that?

Luckytwn1 said:

Let me add that when I was in Amsterdam to see PJ, I went to all of the Holocaust memorial sites in the city. 108,000 of the 140,000 Jews in the Netherlands were murdered by the Nazis. Now it sounds like you'd like that to happen again but the lessons have been learned. Israel is a tiny country and if they didn't have the strongest military per capita in the world, the countries surrounding Israel wouldn't think twice about destroying it. Israel is doing what it must to survive and that is why it is backed by all of the world's democracies...because they would all do the same thing under the same circumstances. It's that simple.

So because I support an end to Israel's illegal occupation I must therefore be in favour of a second holocaust of Jews? Interesting logic you have there.

Do you support Israel's illegal occupation and it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? If so, then who's the racist here?

Byrnzie

Interesting that the only two countries that supported the racist South African Apartheid regime up until the end were the U.S and Israel.
It's also interesting that the only country in the World that supports Israel's race war against the Palestinians is the U.S.

Luckytwn1

byrnzie said:

Short-range missiles from a few miles outside of those cities? The perpetrators would be apprehended. I doubt that bombs would be dropped on entire residential neighbourhoods. Do you?

You cannot be serious with that response. How would they be apprehended if they are hiding within the population? So clearly, you are in favor of Israel sending in ground troops to clean this mess up. And as an American, let me assure you it is 100 percent certain that if a rocket was fired into NYC from enemy territory, if you think there wouldn't be bombs dropped on the places it was coming from, you would be extremely wrong. Or perhaps you missed what took place in Afghanistan after 9/11.

byrnzie said:

Do you condemn the killing of two unarmed Palestinian teenagers by an Israeli sniper in May? Where was your outrage over that? You don't give a fuck about the murder of Palestinians do you.

My outrage is with the Palestinian leaders, especially within Hamas, who allow their citizens to be put into a situation where such horrible circumstances are necessary. There was a video the other day of an Israeli soldier giving two young Palestinian children food and one of the children threw his arms around he solider and hugged him. I know many people who have served in the Israeli military and no Israeli soldier ever wants to be in the situation where they have to shoot someone. While there are Israeli extremists, just like there are in every society, the overwhelming vast majority of Israelis want nothing more than to live in peace with their neighbors.

Byrnzie said:

So because I support an end to Israel's illegal occupation I must therefore be in favour of a second holocaust of Jews? Interesting logic you have

I think you are uninformed, ignorant, and deluded. I would like to be believe it's not because of an innate bias against Jews but I have no way of knowing that either way.

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

And let's not forget, the reason why civilians are getting caught in the crossfire is because Hamas is hiding weapons among them.

That's a fucking lie. And you have zero evidence to support the claim. The same lie that was parroted by Israel's apologists during the massacre of Gazans during Operation Cast Lead 2008-2009, and which no evidence was ever presented to support. In fact, every international investigation into these claims found zero evidence to corroborate them.

Meanwhile:

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/maureen-clare-murphy/why-did-they-kill-my-entire-family-asks-gaza-bombing-survivor
As the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights stated today, a home cannot be classified as a military target because it is owned by a fighter. The lack of secondary explosions in homes targeted by Israel gives the lie to Israel’s claim that the houses were used for weapons storage.

The rights group says the houses are being destroyed as a punitive measure targeting members of armed groups in Gaza and their families.

Such collective punishment of civilians is a war crime.

Luckytwn1

Byrnzie said:

That's a fucking lie. And you have zero evidence to support the claim.

Clearly, the evidence that the weapons exist in Gaza would be the hundreds of weapons flying out of Gaza into Israel. I mean, you cannot be serious with that remark.

Hamas is very good at hiding the weapons, that I give you, and by their own admission they've gotten a lot better at it. They even made proud statements to that effect within the past 2 days.

As far as quoting statements, let's look at the official position of the United States of America:

"We strongly condemn the continuing rocket fire inside of Israel and the deliberate targeting of civilians by terrorist organizations in Gaza," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said at a news briefing on Tuesday. "No country can accept rocket fire aimed at civilians, and we support Israel's right to defend itself against these vicious attacks."

That says it all and again it certainly confirms exactly how we would respond in the same situation.

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

Clearly, the evidence that the weapons exist in Gaza would be the hundreds of weapons flying out of Gaza into Israel. I mean, you cannot be serious with that remark.

Your claim was that weapons are being hidden amongst civilians, and that therefore it's perfectly acceptable to drop bombs on civilians. But there's no evidence that Hamas is hiding any weapons in amongst civilians. And there was no evidence of them doing so during Israel's large full scale assault on the people of Gaza either.

Luckytwn1 said:

Hamas is very good at hiding the weapons, that I give you, and by their own admission they've gotten a lot better at it.

Did you just make that up because it sounded good?

Luckytwn1 said:

They even made proud statements to that effect within the past 2 days.

Such as?

Luckytwn1 said:

As far as quoting statements, let's look at the official position of the United States of America:

"We strongly condemn the continuing rocket fire inside of Israel and the deliberate targeting of civilians by terrorist organizations in Gaza," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said at a news briefing on Tuesday. "No country can accept rocket fire aimed at civilians, and we support Israel's right to defend itself against these vicious attacks."

That says it all and again it certainly confirms exactly how we would respond in the same situation.

You didn't answer my question.

Do you support Israel's illegal occupation and it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

Luckytwn1

Byrnzie said:

Do you support Israel's illegal occupation and it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

Do you enjoy beating your wife/girlfriend? Same sort of straw man.

I'm not going to play your games. To answer your question seriously would be to give legitimacy to the question and it is completely illegitimate.

What I support is Israel's right to defend itself against terrorists.

badbrains

Luckytwn1 said:

Byrnzie said:

Do you support Israel's illegal occupation and it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

Do you enjoy beating your wife/girlfriend? Same sort of straw man.

I'm not going to play your games. To answer your question seriously would be to give legitimacy to the question and it is completely illegitimate.

What I support is Israel's right to defend itself against terrorists.

I see, so one side is allowed to defend itself with bombing the shit out of the other side. But the other side has to sit still and quiet while their land is raped right out from under them. Interesting logic there. Funny how everytime you Israeli apologists come out, it's always-Israel has the right to defend itself and blah blah blah blah. What about the Palestinians? What are they supposed to do? Must suck to have only 1 fucken country to have your back. Israel is sooooo fucken lucky America has spineless cowards working in congress and the senate. Fill their pockets with money or threaten to ruin their political careers if they dnt play ball with you. What's gonna happen to Israel when the American empire falls and no ones there to veto any shit for them. What's gonna happen to Israel if these fucktards in congress finally grew some fucken balls and said enough. Dnt worry Israel, none of that's gonna happen because aipac won't allow it to. Can't fucken believe it, 1 rogue country being allowed to run ape shit on the Palestinians. When will it stop....

Luckytwn1

badbrains said:

I see, so one side is allowed to defend itself with bombing the shit out of the other side. But the other side has to sit still and quiet while their land is raped right out from under them. Interesting logic there. Funny how everytime you Israeli apologists come out, it's always-Israel has the right to defend itself and blah blah blah blah. What about the Palestinians? What are they supposed to do? Must suck to have only 1 fucken country to have your back. Israel is sooooo fucken lucky America has spineless cowards working in congress and the senate. Fill their pockets with money or threaten to ruin their political careers if they dnt play ball with you. What's gonna happen to Israel when the American empire falls and no ones there to veto any shit for them. What's gonna happen to Israel if these fucktards in congress finally grew some fucken balls and said enough. Dnt worry Israel, none of that's gonna happen because aipac won't allow it to. Can't fucken believe it, 1 rogue country being allowed to run ape shit on the Palestinians. When will it stop....

It's comical and a little frightening to read such ignorance. But just to attempt to alleviate some of your ignorance and assure you that America is not the only country backing Israel, here is the position of the UK government:

A Downing Street spokeswoman said: "The Prime Minister spoke to prime minister Netanyahu earlier this evening about the situation in Israel.

"The Prime Minister strongly condemned the appalling attacks being carried out by Hamas against Israeli civilians.

"The Prime Minister reiterated the UK's staunch support for Israel in the face of such attacks, and underlined Israel's right to defend itself from them."

And the position of the French:

François Hollande declared France’s “solidarity” with Israel in a telephone call to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday evening. The Israeli government must do whatever is needed to protect its people, the French president said.

Canada:

Canada’s Harper “reiterated Canada’s steadfast support for Israel and its right to defend itself against these terror attacks,” his official website states. He agreed with Netanyahu that “Hamas must end its targeted attacks on Israeli citizens.”

Shall I go on?

badbrains

Luckytwn1 said:

badbrains said:

I see, so one side is allowed to defend itself with bombing the shit out of the other side. But the other side has to sit still and quiet while their land is raped right out from under them. Interesting logic there. Funny how everytime you Israeli apologists come out, it's always-Israel has the right to defend itself and blah blah blah blah. What about the Palestinians? What are they supposed to do? Must suck to have only 1 fucken country to have your back. Israel is sooooo fucken lucky America has spineless cowards working in congress and the senate. Fill their pockets with money or threaten to ruin their political careers if they dnt play ball with you. What's gonna happen to Israel when the American empire falls and no ones there to veto any shit for them. What's gonna happen to Israel if these fucktards in congress finally grew some fucken balls and said enough. Dnt worry Israel, none of that's gonna happen because aipac won't allow it to. Can't fucken believe it, 1 rogue country being allowed to run ape shit on the Palestinians. When will it stop....

It's comical and a little frightening to read such ignorance. But just to attempt to alleviate some of your ignorance and assure you that America is not the only country backing Israel, here is the position of the UK government:

A Downing Street spokeswoman said: "The Prime Minister spoke to prime minister Netanyahu earlier this evening about the situation in Israel.

"The Prime Minister strongly condemned the appalling attacks being carried out by Hamas against Israeli civilians.

"The Prime Minister reiterated the UK's staunch support for Israel in the face of such attacks, and underlined Israel's right to defend itself from them."

And the position of the French:

François Hollande declared France’s “solidarity” with Israel in a telephone call to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday evening. The Israeli government must do whatever is needed to protect its people, the French president said.

Canada:

Canada’s Harper “reiterated Canada’s steadfast support for Israel and its right to defend itself against these terror attacks,” his official website states. He agreed with Netanyahu that “Hamas must end its targeted attacks on Israeli citizens.”

Shall I go on?

They to Dare Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby
Book by Paul Findley
They to Dare Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel's Lobby is a bestselling book that was written in 1985, had a second edition published in 1989 and a third in 2003 by American former Representative/Congressman Paul Findley. Wikipedia
Published: 1985
Author: Paul Findley

Read it, I suggest everyone who's into politics read this book and see what's really going on in Washington. This is where I got some of my ignorance that you're frightened of.

Shall I go on......

JWPearl

You all amuse me lol.. laugh its quite funny if you see the funny side of things..

Byrnzie

Luckytwn1 said:

Byrnzie said:

Do you support Israel's illegal occupation and it's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians?

Do you enjoy beating your wife/girlfriend? Same sort of straw man.

I'm not going to play your games. To answer your question seriously would be to give legitimacy to the question and it is completely illegitimate.

What I support is Israel's right to defend itself against terrorists.

How is my question illegitimate? The occupation is illegal under international law, and Palestinians are being forcefully evicted from their homes to make way for Jews.
Do you support the occupation, and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, or don't you?

badbrains

JWPearl said:

You all amuse me lol.. laugh its quite funny if you see the funny side of things..

Wish it was something funny to laugh about. Unfortunately it's not and this is what happens when people on both sides are passionate about the cause.