what exactly is not factual? The fact that my company closed two plants because it was to expensive to burn coal? Or was it the fact that the people working at those plants lost their job? Or the fact that since those two plants aren't burning coal, that those are carbon emissions not being put in the atmosphere?
Your being angry is understandable. Losing jobs sucks. Maybe vent that anger toward to powers that be that aren't creating more jobs in renewable energy. But please don't vent your anger at people who are expressing a desire to keep this world livable for humans and other animals. On a planet that is not hospitable to human life there will be no jobs.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
what exactly is not factual? The fact that my company closed two plants because it was to expensive to burn coal? Or was it the fact that the people working at those plants lost their job? Or the fact that since those two plants aren't burning coal, that those are carbon emissions not being put in the atmosphere?
the part where you said the US HAS cracked down on emissions ... sure, there are some improvements but it's mostly a shifting of the economic functions that has driven the decrease rather than a crack down ...
as for the plant closures - i can say that on one hand, it's not great people are losing jobs but at the end of the day are we to always use that as our purpose!? ... outside of global warming - what about the pollution these coal plants contribute to ... the impact on air quality, respiratory illnesses and it's impact to the economy? ... i mean i'm sure tobacco industry lost a lot of jobs when they starting banning smoking ... are we to try and save that industry?
what exactly is not factual? The fact that my company closed two plants because it was to expensive to burn coal? Or was it the fact that the people working at those plants lost their job? Or the fact that since those two plants aren't burning coal, that those are carbon emissions not being put in the atmosphere?
the part where you said the US HAS cracked down on emissions ... sure, there are some improvements but it's mostly a shifting of the economic functions that has driven the decrease rather than a crack down ...
as for the plant closures - i can say that on one hand, it's not great people are losing jobs but at the end of the day are we to always use that as our purpose!? ... outside of global warming - what about the pollution these coal plants contribute to ... the impact on air quality, respiratory illnesses and it's impact to the economy? ... i mean i'm sure tobacco industry lost a lot of jobs when they starting banning smoking ... are we to try and save that industry?
Ohhhh, so Obama and the EPA hasn't made it tougher for coal fired power plants to burn coal?? That's your position?
Carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions in the United States increased by about 10% between 1990 and 2011
Going forward, CO2 emissions in the United States are projected to grow by about 1.5% between 2005 and 2020.
listen ... sure there is changes to regulations and some plants may have been affected (although it's hard to say for sure because it's such a political issue) ... but coal still represents 32% of electricity consumption in the states ... hardly a crackdown on coal but more relevantly hardly a crackdown on overall emissions ...
If the argument is that cracking down on CO2 emissions is bad because of the economic impact... then, the same most also hold true for China, shouldn't it? Why should China cut its emissions? China has coal fired power plants and workers, too... don't they?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
If the argument is that cracking down on CO2 emissions is bad because of the economic impact... then, the same most also hold true for China, shouldn't it? Why should China cut its emissions? China has coal fired power plants and workers, too... don't they?
the argument is that the US has cracked down on emissions and we should focus our energy (no pun intended) on china ... all i'm simply saying is that the US continues to be a major contributor to global emissions and that yeah we need to address china but we can't ignore the US ...
the reality is we can cut our emissions MASSIVELY with very little to no impact on the overall economy ... the big losers would just be the fat cats from big oil and coal ... but these fat cats control the world and they (through the help of gov'ts) can control the messaging ... we haven't needed coal for a looooong time ...
Nothing proves a point better than a graph. Good job with that. But it's totally irrelevant to my point. Which is the EPA and the president has made it very expensive to burn coal. When Obama took office, my company was thriving, now we are shutting down plants. A direct result of new epa regulations. Obviously, Obama knows he cant eliminate coal fired power plants. He can make them pay. That's what he is doing. That's the crackdown.
The coal industry has gotten away with an awful lot of unregulated companies for many, many, many years. Not saying that there aren't regulations, but that no one's enforcing them. Sort of like that plant in West Virginia that leaked chemicals into the river and wrecked environmental and human havoc a few weeks ago. They haven't been regulated since 1992. Such a comforting thought to the population. *Insert rolling eyes*
It's nice to know that Obama has laid down the hammer with the coal industry. Up next? It better be Big Oil... I know right now that there is a propane shortage in the US and with it being so cold, it doesn't help. I'm sure that'll be next to be paying up.
Obama has accomplished few and far between but his war on coal has been one of his most successful victories. The coal-fired industrial boiler industry is all but dead. New plants will be powered by natural gas. I know this because I have been involved negotiations for the procurement of industry boilers and they are being phased out. New plants won't buy them and existing plants will replace their coal fired boilers over the next ten years.
Nothing proves a point better than a graph. Good job with that. But it's totally irrelevant to my point. Which is the EPA and the president has made it very expensive to burn coal. When Obama took office, my company was thriving, now we are shutting down plants. A direct result of new epa regulations. Obviously, Obama knows he cant eliminate coal fired power plants. He can make them pay. That's what he is doing. That's the crackdown.
dude ... you said the US HAS cracked down on emissions ... just go back to page 1 ... if you want to say the US has cracked down on coal plants - that's another thing ... ultimately we are talking about emissions as a country and yes china is #1 and growing but the US is #2 and not slowing ... so, why ignore the issue domestically and only focus on china ...
Polaris, emissions are a huge part of my life. Every decision I make has to be checked by my safety / health / environmental manager to make sure it is within our EPA allowed limits. It's the first question that comes up ... How does it effect emissions? ... a small bump might require a formal report and a six month review before I can do anything. A major bump will take a major cost study that takes six month to collect, followed by a formal report, and then a one year review before the EPA tells me to proceed or 'eff off.
There may have been a time when companies were free to pollute and do whatever they wanted to do ... those days are over. People go to jail now.
The EPA and lawyers ... One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them
EPA regulations might be followed but there are huge gaps in the regulations especially in regards to our knowledge of long term impact upon both humans and the environment. Regulations seem to be a bit piecemeal - are there requirements for how often the EPA and these industries have to revamp/reevaluate regulations? I'm gonna assume probably not since the chemical leak in WV revolved, in part, on inadequate data. NPR did a follow up story about the chemical spill in WV that examined these exact factors.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
Scientists have determined that until carbon in the atmosphere is brought down to 350 PPM the global climate will continue to warm. That is why 350.org is an international organization working to do just that. I know, I'm sounding like a promo ad here but if this matters to you, maybe check them out here:
Polaris, emissions are a huge part of my life. Every decision I make has to be checked by my safety / health / environmental manager to make sure it is within our EPA allowed limits. It's the first question that comes up ... How does it effect emissions? ... a small bump might require a formal report and a six month review before I can do anything. A major bump will take a major cost study that takes six month to collect, followed by a formal report, and then a one year review before the EPA tells me to proceed or 'eff off.
There may have been a time when companies were free to pollute and do whatever they wanted to do ... those days are over. People go to jail now.
The EPA and lawyers ... One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them
that is good to hear but at the end of the day ... emissions are still expected to grow and the US is still a major contributor globally ... how can you say that everything's fine in the US and let's just worry about china when that simply is not the case ...
Everything isn't fine but attitudes are improving. Just trying to provide some insight versus the doom and gloom that America / Corporations is running wild without control.
Corporations like money. Having poor safety and environmental records cost corporations lots of money. Thus, corporations hire people that drive me nuts to make sure I don't bend the rules (not that I would).
I have an environmental permit 3-ring binder that is so big that I think I would have to get a custom-made binder if I wanted to make it bigger.
Everything isn't fine but attitudes are improving. Just trying to provide some insight versus the doom and gloom that America / Corporations is running wild without control.
Corporations like money. Having poor safety and environmental records cost corporations lots of money. Thus, corporations hire people that drive me nuts to make sure I don't bend the rules (not that I would).
I have an environmental permit 3-ring binder that is so big that I think I would have to get a custom-made binder if I wanted to make it bigger.
first of all - the US continues to be one of the largest populations that still doubt global warming and man's impact ... secondly, we both know that these regulations can be gone in a couple of years if and when a republican administration takes over ... thirdly, if you understand the consequences of global warming - it is in fact doom and gloom ... it is already doom and gloom ... i don't mean to say it in a confrontational way ... but more matter of fact ...
even if emissions were to level off - the consequences are still bad ... we need a full on reduction not a stabilization or a small decrease ... we need a huge decrease ...
i understand tho that it gets tiring hearing about all the shitty stuff ... i can't really do anything about it ... i'm just not gonna sit here while people want to pretend things are getting better when they are not ...
It is cheaper for the mega-corps (ex. Massey, Chesapeake, Exxon) to pay fines for violations than to fix problems. Even if it isn't cheaper over time, the short sight of corps' boards' ensures they will avoid the cost of improvement now even if it is healthier in the long run. this is the reality of the american capital system in general. shareholder profit at the expense of company survivability, hell even planetary survivability.
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
I think the US does need to do it's share but global warming is, after all, a global problem. Maybe it's time to look at global solutions. I would be OK with boycotting every product from any country that is not reducing it's carbon input enough to lower it to 350 PPM. That's the number we must reach if we want to keep on going for more than a few generations. And it can be done, absolutely.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
It is cheaper for the mega-corps (ex. Massey, Chesapeake, Exxon) to pay fines for violations than to fix problems. Even if it isn't cheaper over time, the short sight of corps' boards' ensures they will avoid the cost of improvement now even if it is healthier in the long run. this is the reality of the american capital system in general. shareholder profit at the expense of company survivability, hell even planetary survivability.
exactly ... and backseatlover12's post too ...
fucking corporations are destroying the planet ... and i'm not talking about all corps ... it's just the 100 or so that fucking own this world ...
buy co-op whenever possible, Cabot farms cheese is my newest favorite co-op product. The "seriously sharp" cheddar will curl your toes and the habanero cheese will straighten them back out and leave you quite warm!
Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,297
buy co-op whenever possible, Cabot farms cheese is my newest favorite co-op product. The "seriously sharp" cheddar will curl your toes and the habanero cheese will straighten them back out and leave you quite warm!
Yes! We belong to our local co-op and love it. We also shop at our local farmer's market. Nothing beats eating locally grown food that's been fresh picked ripe instead of picked green and ripped off-vine. AND the food is not transported as far- less carbon in the atmosphere! CSA's are great also.
A little off subject but maybe notice the use of the words "local" (adjective) and "locally" (adverb). Next time you see a billboard that say "Shop Local" get yourself some paint and fix it.
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Tunisia writes climate change into its constitution ... next step is to get the ICC to recognize the impacts caused by climate change ... then we can start taking countries like the US, Canada and China to court ...
buy co-op whenever possible, Cabot farms cheese is my newest favorite co-op product. The "seriously sharp" cheddar will curl your toes and the habanero cheese will straighten them back out and leave you quite warm!
Yes! We belong to our local co-op and love it. We also shop at our local farmer's market. Nothing beats eating locally grown food that's been fresh picked ripe instead of picked green and ripped off-vine. AND the food is not transported as far- less carbon in the atmosphere! CSA's are great also.
A little off subject but maybe notice the use of the words "local" (adjective) and "locally" (adverb). Next time you see a billboard that say "Shop Local" get yourself some paint and fix it.
Buying co-ops are great and you usually have the power to order in bulk and freeze/can things to last through the winter so you don't have to go outside your 'local' area! I am still enjoying corn and tomatoes from the summer which is a win/win for me and the environment!
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
buy co-op whenever possible, Cabot farms cheese is my newest favorite co-op product. The "seriously sharp" cheddar will curl your toes and the habanero cheese will straighten them back out and leave you quite warm!
Yes! We belong to our local co-op and love it. We also shop at our local farmer's market. Nothing beats eating locally grown food that's been fresh picked ripe instead of picked green and ripped off-vine. AND the food is not transported as far- less carbon in the atmosphere! CSA's are great also.
A little off subject but maybe notice the use of the words "local" (adjective) and "locally" (adverb). Next time you see a billboard that say "Shop Local" get yourself some paint and fix it.
Buying co-ops are great and you usually have the power to order in bulk and freeze/can things to last through the winter so you don't have to go outside your 'local' area! I am still enjoying corn and tomatoes from the summer which is a win/win for me and the environment!
Fresh tomatoes and corn are great but I must confess, I've never had "local". Is it a little bit like rutabagas or closer to kohlrabi ?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Comments
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
as for the plant closures - i can say that on one hand, it's not great people are losing jobs but at the end of the day are we to always use that as our purpose!? ... outside of global warming - what about the pollution these coal plants contribute to ... the impact on air quality, respiratory illnesses and it's impact to the economy? ... i mean i'm sure tobacco industry lost a lot of jobs when they starting banning smoking ... are we to try and save that industry?
Please, provide a source for this "fact".
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html#Trends listen ... sure there is changes to regulations and some plants may have been affected (although it's hard to say for sure because it's such a political issue) ... but coal still represents 32% of electricity consumption in the states ... hardly a crackdown on coal but more relevantly hardly a crackdown on overall emissions ...
Hail, Hail!!!
the reality is we can cut our emissions MASSIVELY with very little to no impact on the overall economy ... the big losers would just be the fat cats from big oil and coal ... but these fat cats control the world and they (through the help of gov'ts) can control the messaging ... we haven't needed coal for a looooong time ...
It's nice to know that Obama has laid down the hammer with the coal industry. Up next? It better be Big Oil... I know right now that there is a propane shortage in the US and with it being so cold, it doesn't help. I'm sure that'll be next to be paying up.
Emission standards have won.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gaJJtS_WDmIThere may have been a time when companies were free to pollute and do whatever they wanted to do ... those days are over. People go to jail now.
The EPA and lawyers ... One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them
npr.org/2014/01/29/268201454/how-industrial-chemical-regulation-failed-west-virginia
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
http://350.org/
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Corporations like money. Having poor safety and environmental records cost corporations lots of money. Thus, corporations hire people that drive me nuts to make sure I don't bend the rules (not that I would).
I have an environmental permit 3-ring binder that is so big that I think I would have to get a custom-made binder if I wanted to make it bigger.
even if emissions were to level off - the consequences are still bad ... we need a full on reduction not a stabilization or a small decrease ... we need a huge decrease ...
i understand tho that it gets tiring hearing about all the shitty stuff ... i can't really do anything about it ... i'm just not gonna sit here while people want to pretend things are getting better when they are not ...
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Naming Names: The 90 Companies Destroying Our Planet
http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-World-Shopping-Guide/dp/0865717249
The Better World Shopping Guide: Every Dollar Makes a Difference (Better World Shopping Guide: Every Dollar Can Make a Difference)
fucking corporations are destroying the planet ... and i'm not talking about all corps ... it's just the 100 or so that fucking own this world ...
A little off subject but maybe notice the use of the words "local" (adjective) and "locally" (adverb). Next time you see a billboard that say "Shop Local" get yourself some paint and fix it.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
http://www.rtcc.org/2014/01/27/tunisia-embeds-climate-change-in-constitution/
Buying co-ops are great and you usually have the power to order in bulk and freeze/can things to last through the winter so you don't have to go outside your 'local' area! I am still enjoying corn and tomatoes from the summer which is a win/win for me and the environment!
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"