Roger Waters an Anti-Semite?

Godfather.

Byrnzie wrote:

'...what has proved the greater concern for Foxman is Waters' support of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement, which calls for economic, political and cultural pressure on Israel to protest its policies against the Palestinians.

"Artistic license doesn't cover everything, it covers the symbolism," Foxman says, adding: "You can criticize Israel, but you cannot criticize its existence."

Because protesting Israel's policies against the Palestinians - i.e, ethnic cleansing - constitutes criticizing Israel's existence.

Prick.

I wonder how Jews would have felt during WWII if everytime their persecution by the Nazis was mentioned, someone had accused them of trying to 'delegitimize' Germany?

awesome post.

Godfather.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Guitar92player wrote:

He is definitely not an anti-Semite.

I saw his Wall concert, and if I am remembering correctly, one of the graphics on the screen criticizes all religions.

that's my take on it as well.

I saw the first tour in L.A and non of that even crossed my mind, it was and still is to this day one of the top 3 shows I have ever seen.....it is #1 of the three.


Godfather.

Byrnzie

From the Guardian...

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/d ... rael-nazis

Former Pink Floyd frontman sparks fury by comparing Israelis to Nazis

Religious leaders react angrily to Roger Waters' latest outspoken attack on treatment of Palestinians



Vanessa Thorpe and Edward Helmore in New York
The Observer, Saturday 14 December 2013


Inflammatory remarks by the musician Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, comparing the modern Israeli state to Nazi Germany have put him at the centre of a furious dispute.

Performers and religious figures reacted angrily to the veteran rock star's argument that Israeli treatment of the Palestinians can be compared to the atrocities of Nazi Germany. "The parallels with what went on in the 1930s in Germany are so crushingly obvious," he said in an American online interview last week.

Waters, 70, a well-known supporter of the Palestinian cause, has frequently defended himself against accusations that he is antisemitic, claiming he has a right to urge fellow artists to boycott Israel.

This summer he was criticised for using a pig-shaped balloon adorned with Jewish symbols, including a Star of David, as one part of the stage effects at his concerts. Waters countered that it was just one of several religious and political symbols in the show and not an attempt to single out Judaism as an evil force.

Now leading American thinker Rabbi Shmuley Boteach has raised the stakes by describing Waters' views as audacious and clearly antisemitic.

Writing in the New York Observer, the rabbi said: "Mr Waters, the Nazis were a genocidal regime that murdered six million Jews. That you would have the audacity to compare Jews to monsters who murdered them shows you have no decency, you have no heart, you have no soul." The rabbi was responding to Waters's latest comments on the Middle East. Speaking to the leftwing CounterPunch magazine, the musician criticised the US government for being unduly influenced by the Israeli "propaganda machine".

The former Pink Floyd frontman, who has recently toured the world with a show based on the influential 1979 album The Wall, went on to describe the Israeli rabbinate as "bizarre" and accused them of believing that Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East were "sub-human". Waters suggested the "Jewish lobby" was "extraordinarily powerful". On the subject of the Holocaust, he said: "There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it's the Palestinian people being murdered."

Speaking from New York on Saturday night, Waters strongly rejected Rabbi Boteach's characterisation of his views. He said: "I do not know Rabbi Boteach, and am not prepared to get into a slanging match with him. I will say this: I have nothing against Jews or Israelis, and I am not antisemitic. I deplore the policies of the Israeli government in the occupied territories and Gaza. They are immoral, inhuman and illegal. I will continue my non-violent protests as long as the government of Israel continues with these policies.

"If Rabbi Boteach can make a case for the Israel government's policies, I look forward to hearing it. It is difficult to make arguments to defend the Israeli government's policies, so would-be defenders often use a diversionary tactic, they routinely drag the critic into a public arena and accuse them of being an antisemite."

Waters continued: "The Holocaust was brutal and disgusting beyond our imagination. We must never forget it. We must always remain vigilant. We must never stand by silent and indifferent to the sufferings of others, whatever their race, colour, ethnic background or religion. All human beings deserve the right to live equally under the law."

Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said: "Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to advocate passionately for a cause, but drawing inappropriate parallels with the Holocaust insults the memory of the six million Jews – men, women and children – murdered by the Nazis. These kinds of attacks are commonly used as veiled antisemitism and should be exposed as such."

Jo-Ann Mort, vice-chair of US Jewish group Americans for Peace Now, is calling for musicians and other entertainers to go to Israel to understand that there is also Israeli opposition to discrimination against Arabs. Speaking to the Observer from California, she said it was important for international performers to "speak their mind to audiences about the nation's successes and failures. Just as Israeli musicians – Jewish, Muslim and Christian – do."

"The media in Israel flock to foreign entertainers. Performers would have the opportunity to make their viewpoints known – and it will also help to break the logjam that fundamentalists have had on both sides," she argued.

Mort supports the anti-boycott approach of Israeli singer and activist David Broza, whose forthcoming album East Jerusalem/West Jerusalem features covers of songs that urge understanding, including Waters's own song Mother, from the album The Wall.

"Music captivates your head and your mind," Broza recently argued. "If it comes with good vibes, then everyone wants to be part of it. The hard work comes from having a belief in what you are doing and in not stopping at the barricades that are posted at every corner."

Last week Waters's words drew a strong response from the Community Security Trust, the body that monitors anti-Jewish activity in Britain. A spokesman told the Jewish Chronicle that Waters's comments "echo the language of antisemitism" and added that the musician was "living proof of how easily people who pursue extreme anti-Israel politics can drift into antisemitic statements and ideas".

Bicom, the UK-based Israel advocacy organisation, also condemned Waters's views. Chief executive Dermot Kehoe said: "The statements by Roger Waters calling for a cultural boycott of Israel and comparing the country to Nazi Germany are repugnant and fly in the face of both the reality in Israel today and the ongoing peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians."

In August Waters used his Facebook page to respond to allegations that he was an "open hater of Jews", made by Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in an interview with an American weekly Jewish newspaper, the Algemeiner.

"Often I can ignore these attacks, but Rabbi Cooper's accusations are so wild and bigoted they demand a response," Waters wrote, adding that he had "many very close Jewish friends".

Byrnzie

It is interesting to note that he's being attacked for having apparently compared the Israeli's to Nazis, considering he did nothing of the sort. But then, if you have no defence, I suppose your only recourse is to make shit up, and then use that bullshit as a platform from which to pull the anti-Semitism card.

Here's what he said:

"There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it's the Palestinian people being murdered."

sploatee

Byrnzie wrote:

If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

Have you ever actually been there?

So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).

VivaPalestina

sploatee wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

Have you ever actually been there?

So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).

You have to be there or have gone there to know it is a racist state? Isn't that what the news or reading is for, because I for one would have had a hard time travelling to the Philippines but yet somehow by osmosis I found out that there was a devastating typhoon. But I would be happy to relate a virtual tour for anyone who is interested what it is like to go the West Bank via tel aviv or Allenby or Gaza via Egypt.

And Byrnzie is not being hateful. He is one of the very few people in this world who care enough to inform himself and bring awareness to this conflict. There is no hate in standing up against land theft, ethnic cleansing and the killing and incarceration of innocent women and children. I would say that this comes from a place that is good and generous, not hate.

Byrnzie

sploatee wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

Have you ever actually been there?

So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).

Have I actually been there? Why? You think that if I visited the Occupied Territories then I'd see the error of my ways and begin supporting ethnic cleansing?

And as for not getting 'peace that way', boycotts worked in toppling Apartheid South Africa, so what makes you think they wouldn't work in ending the Israeli occupation?

sploatee

VivaPalestina wrote:

sploatee wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

Have you ever actually been there?

So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).

You have to be there or have gone there to know it is a racist state? Isn't that what the news or reading is for, because I for one would have had a hard time travelling to the Philippines but yet somehow by osmosis I found out that there was a devastating typhoon. But I would be happy to relate a virtual tour for anyone who is interested what it is like to go the West Bank via tel aviv or Allenby or Gaza via Egypt.

And Byrnzie is not being hateful. He is one of the very few people in this world who care enough to inform himself and bring awareness to this conflict. There is no hate in standing up against land theft, ethnic cleansing and the killing and incarceration of innocent women and children. I would say that this comes from a place that is good and generous, not hate.

Very few people? I would say that most people are on the 'side' of the Palestinians. It's sad that there is even a 'side'.

My point is that I don't see how turning up to a concert in Israel dressed like a 'freedom fighter' is a constructive, positive thing. I don't think things are as black-and-white as you do. It's incredibly easy to just dismiss everything about Israel as horrible and hate personified. But it's simply not true. There are many Israelis who oppose what the government does. There are Israeli Arabs who are successful and happy in the so-called apartheid state. Given your username, I wouldn't be surprised if you stopped reading in anger there!

But there are two sides to every story and you can't have peace without accepting that. I know about the horror of Sabra and Shatila. What about the Jews in Arab countries who were purged and forced to flee? I know about the idiotic settlers who think they have a divine right to somebody else's home. But what about the racist filth propagated by Arab - including Palestinian - state channels; it's not political commentary - it's as vicious, racist and hate-filled as all of the actions you attribute to the Israeli government.

But I know how this works; you will come back with facts, and I will go back to you with facts and nobody gets anywhere, nobody ever changes their mind and everyone gets angry - it's exactly what goes on whenever nationalism and religion intoxicate people on both sides. This is what makes me sad. If it makes you feel better venting and raging on the internet about evil Israel, then great. That's not the kind of thing that promotes dialogue - and it's dialogue that will help improve the terrible conditions Palestinians live in - especially in Gaza.

You want PJ to boycott Israel - cool, that's fine. I never thought that was the kind of thing they would stood for. You'll say "of course, they stand against evil!" But I prefer to think this might be more the way to do things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projects_w ... d_Israelis

Palestinians and Israelis need to talk more. You don't get to talk more by taking a 'side'. But I'm guessing from your name that your mind might already be made up?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

sploatee wrote:

There are many Israelis who oppose what the government does. There are Israeli Arabs who are successful and happy in the so-called apartheid state.

this is something that causes this discussion to go round and round on a constant basis. of COURSE there are israelis who oppose what their government does. no one is talking about individual israelis in the course of these discussions. we are talking about those in power.

look at it this way: no one with a brain paints the entire US as a war-mongering self-serving entity; just some of the governments that have won out of fear and by miniscule margins fit that bill. but some get up in arms when someone criticizes the US without constantly clarifying by using the word "government".

VivaPalestina

sploatee wrote:

Very few people? I would say that most people are on the 'side' of the Palestinians. It's sad that there is even a 'side'.

My point is that I don't see how turning up to a concert in Israel dressed like a 'freedom fighter' is a constructive, positive thing. I don't think things are as black-and-white as you do. It's incredibly easy to just dismiss everything about Israel as horrible and hate personified. But it's simply not true. There are many Israelis who oppose what the government does. There are Israeli Arabs who are successful and happy in the so-called apartheid state. Given your username, I wouldn't be surprised if you stopped reading in anger there!

But there are two sides to every story and you can't have peace without accepting that. I know about the horror of Sabra and Shatila. What about the Jews in Arab countries who were purged and forced to flee? I know about the idiotic settlers who think they have a divine right to somebody else's home. But what about the racist filth propagated by Arab - including Palestinian - state channels; it's not political commentary - it's as vicious, racist and hate-filled as all of the actions you attribute to the Israeli government.

But I know how this works; you will come back with facts, and I will go back to you with facts and nobody gets anywhere, nobody ever changes their mind and everyone gets angry - it's exactly what goes on whenever nationalism and religion intoxicate people on both sides. This is what makes me sad. If it makes you feel better venting and raging on the internet about evil Israel, then great. That's not the kind of thing that promotes dialogue - and it's dialogue that will help improve the terrible conditions Palestinians live in - especially in Gaza.

You want PJ to boycott Israel - cool, that's fine. I never thought that was the kind of thing they would stood for. You'll say "of course, they stand against evil!" But I prefer to think this might be more the way to do things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projects_w ... d_Israelis

Palestinians and Israelis need to talk more. You don't get to talk more by taking a 'side'. But I'm guessing from your name that your mind might already be made up?

Yes it is sad that there is even a side. When Zionists decided to dispossess the Palestinians of their land they created these “sides.” When Zionists acted in their belief of superiority on their claims on the land of Palestine and pushed the Palestinians off their land, and not allowing them the right to return to that land by force, then yes, sides naturally, or rather unnaturally form.

Howard Zinn stated and very fittingly for this forum, “You can’t stay neutral on a Moving Train.” And to what this thread is about, Roger Waters, by picking a “side,” is he an anti-Semite? Is the statement he made with his art hateful? Drowned Out posted and excellent interview and this great man, a brave man, who explained his position, not sure if you read it, but to reiterate a small part:

“I would say that I understand their opinion. Everybody should have one. But I can’t agree with them, I think that they are entirely wrong. The situation in Israel/ Palestine, with the occupation, the ethnic cleansing and the systematic racist apartheid Israeli regime is unacceptable. So for an artist to go and play in a country that occupies other people’s land and oppresses them the way Israel does, is plain wrong. They should say no. I would not have played for the Vichy government in occupied France in the Second World War, I would not have played in Berlin either during this time. Many people did, back in the day. There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it’s the Palestinian People being murdered. It’s the duty of every thinking human being to ask: “What can I do?”.”

He is not being anti-Semitic or hateful. And maybe that is what drives some of us to post on this thread, which you mislabeled as being hate filled, the question of “What can I do?” It is not hate to want justice for all, equality for all. Are Roger Waters or Brynzie or others (and now as I just read and great applause to US Academics who now support a Cultural Boycott) being hateful or anti-Semitic when calling israel an Apartheid State and demanding measures to end it? Well as a Palestinian who has witnessed it first-hand, who witnessed the wall going up, in the beginning piece by piece, and what it did to families and communities, that it separated East Jerusalem from parts of the West Bank; that the Jewish people who live in the West Bank have different license plates, access to different roads, are more privileged than the rest of the Occupied Territories, easily pass through checkpoints, easily get to school, get to work, to Jerusalem, basically freedom that is not equally shared by the Palestinian living down the road. Roads that are APART, rules and privileges that are APART, well that is where Apartheid, comes from, no? Apart-Hate.

A very recent example of this, a Jewish web site advertising an apartment in Occupied Jerusalem, for “Jews Only,” In South Africa were not there the same signs and racist statements declaring “Whites Only.” http://www.imemc.org/article/66570 “Hate filled.”

From his interview he seems very passionate on an end to Apartheid, to end hate. To call him anti-Semitic is a cold and calculated move to close or mar his career. It is libelous. The term is meant to punish and quiet dissent against the state of israel . The more in the public eye, the more the term is brandished about, quite like a Scarlet A. And those in the public eye willing to risk this are very few. This is not about his use of the Star of David, which was used along with the symbols for Islam and Christianity, this is reverb from when he dared to cancel his concert in israel and visit the West Bank, he signed the apartheid wall and the bulls eye was placed. The attacks and the misconstruing of his words are now headlines, a concerted effort to treat israel with a sensitivity and shield not afforded to the Palestinians or their supporters when reporting this story is evident. It looks like the mainstream media has selected a “side.”

Byrnzie

sploatee wrote:

My point is that I don't see how turning up to a concert in Israel dressed like a 'freedom fighter' is a constructive, positive thing.

Who said anything about turning up to a concert in Israel dressed as a freedom fighter?

sploatee wrote:

It's incredibly easy to just dismiss everything about Israel as horrible and hate personified. But it's simply not true.

Except I've done nothing of the sort, so your point is moot. And I've seen nobody else do that here either.

sploatee wrote:

There are many Israelis who oppose what the government does. There are Israeli Arabs who are successful and happy in the so-called apartheid state.

Just as there were some blacks in Apartheid South Africa who were no doubt happy and successful, yet as with the situation in Israel, you could probably count them on one hand. But so what? How does this justify and excuse the ongoing occupation, and discrimination?

sploatee wrote:

What about the Jews in Arab countries who were purged and forced to flee?

This never happened. It's a myth recently propagated by the Israeli leadership because they've run out of ideas.

sploatee wrote:

I know about the idiotic settlers who think they have a divine right to somebody else's home. But what about the racist filth propagated by Arab - including Palestinian - state channels; it's not political commentary - it's as vicious, racist and hate-filled as all of the actions you attribute to the Israeli government.

The racist Palestinians, of whom there are no doubt many - not really surprising that they exist when you consider they've been occupied and oppressed by the Israeli's for the past 50 years - haven't really been very successful in spreading their 'racist filth' around, because I've never heard any of it. Maybe if they had a multi-million dollar propaganda machine like Israel's then their racist filth would be more widely known.

sploatee wrote:

If it makes you feel better venting and raging on the internet about evil Israel, then great. That's not the kind of thing that promotes dialogue - and it's dialogue that will help improve the terrible conditions Palestinians live in - especially in Gaza.

I don't see anybody venting and raging here.

I tell you what will 'improve the terrible conditions Palestinians live in': ending the Israeli Occupation, and ongoing land-grab. Though maybe you disagree? Maybe you think the occupation and ongoing land-grab is not relevant to the suffering of the Palestinians?

sploatee wrote:

You want PJ to boycott Israel - cool, that's fine. I never thought that was the kind of thing they would stood for. You'll say "of course, they stand against evil!"

I wouldn't say they stand against evil, for the simple reason that I don't believe in evil. As for what Pearl Jam stand for: I'm pretty sure they don't stand for racism, and ethnic cleansing.

sploatee wrote:

Palestinians and Israelis need to talk more. You don't get to talk more by taking a 'side'. But I'm guessing from your name that your mind might already be made up?

No, they don't need to talk more. They've been 'talking' since Israel attacked them in 1967, and the only thing the talks have achieved is that they've allowed Israel to steal more land.
What's needed is not more talk, but action. The U.S stands alone in the World in supporting Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign. What's needed is either for the people of the U.S to wake up and protest their governments foreign policy and rubber=stamping of Israel's crimes at the U.N, or for an international boycott of Israel like the boycott that toppled Apartheid South Africa in the 1980's - coincidentally another racist regime supported until the very end by the U.S government.

HughFreakingDillon

came across this on social media. thoughts?

https://twitter.com/thomyorke/status/884812697912713217

Lerxst1992

Hand grenade, please.

HughFreakingDillon

?

hedonist

Sounds reasonable (gasp!) enough.

By the way, I sure do miss having badbrains and Drowned Out around here. Good guys, and I always appreciated their perspectives. 

HughFreakingDillon

agreed on both counts. 

Lerxst1992

HughFreakingDillon said:

?

Explosive topic.

HughFreakingDillon

Lerxst1992 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

?

Explosive topic.

I was more addressing the idea of boycotting, not the conflict itself

HughFreakingDillon

i had a dream about waters last night. I dont' remember much, except that he was leaning into me, literally, like, we were sitting together somewhere, and he kept putting his head on my shoulder. 

weird. 

Bentleyspop

HughFreakingDillon said:

i had a dream about waters last night. I dont' remember much, except that he was leaning into me, literally, like, we were sitting together somewhere, and he kept putting his head on my shoulder. 

weird.