Roger Waters an Anti-Semite?

Hugh Freaking DillonHugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
edited December 2013 in A Moving Train
gimme a break. He seems to have an issue with all religions equally. Who doesn't? ;)

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/entertainment/music/religious-icons-equal-for-building-walls-roger-waters-says-234188461.html

NEW YORK -- Now that his three-year world tour for The Wall has finally come to an end, Roger Waters wants to set the record straight over criticism he's received from Jewish groups regarding his use of the Star of David symbol in the show and his support for a cultural boycott of Israel.

The 70-year old Pink Floyd co-founder says his intention was never to offend the Jewish people. "I worry about it every day. It's a huge concern to me that I would be considered to be a bully," Waters says.

The controversy began with the use of the Star of David, which appears on Israel's flag and is a symbol of its government, in the show as one of the animated symbols dropped from a fighter jet during the song Goodbye Blue Sky. Other symbols included a crucifix, crescent moon, and the U.S. dollar sign.

SDLqGoodbye Blue Sky is all about and how I feel about the fields of the earth being bathed in blood because we're so determined to bombard our fellow man with our bit of ideology, or our bit of this, or our religion, and some took issue with that," Waters says.

Waters communicated with Anti-Defamation League national director Abraham Foxman and the rocker agreed to move the Stars of David further away from the dollar signs.

"His shows deliver messages, breaking down wall, etc. He uses symbolism, and that's one issue. It's artistic exuberance and crossing the lines of whatever, but he's not an anti-Semite." Foxman told The Associated Press last week.

But Waters this summer opened a new chapter in the controversy when he included the Star of David, among other symbols, on one of his trademark inflatable pigs. Jewish dietary law strictly forbids eating pork.

Waters says a new set of pigs were built for the South America leg of the tour and the Star of David was one of the symbols added to them. "Since then, because of the complaints from some of the Jewish community, we've added a crucifix and star-crescent," Waters says.

But what has proved the greater concern for Foxman is Waters' support of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement, which calls for economic, political and cultural pressure on Israel to protest its policies against the Palestinians.

"Artistic license doesn't cover everything, it covers the symbolism," Foxman says, adding: "You can criticize Israel, but you cannot criticize its existence."

For the past seven years, Waters has supported the global BDS movement over concerns about how Palestinians are treated. Waters has called on Israel to tear down its West Bank separation barrier, and has encouraged other artists to follow his lead and refuse to perform in the Jewish state.

Waters doesn't see the boycott movement as a threat to Israel and points out it has some backing in Israel itself, but most Israelis view the movement as hostile and counterproductive to peace efforts. Some even liken it to delegitimizing the Jewish state altogether.

"The BDS movement is out there to undermine Israel, not to undermine Israeli policy toward the Palestinians," says Paul Hirschson, a spokesman for Israel's Foreign Ministry.

The controversies underlie the continued power of Waters' music. When he conceived the rock opera in the late 1970s with Pink Floyd, Waters wanted to capture the cause and allusions of personal alienation, hence the metaphorical wall.

For the 30th anniversary, he has taken the theme of isolation and applied a global perspective to it. He says he "feel as though I'm hurling myself against a wall metaphorically."

In addition to the Israel-Palestinian crisis, Waters has used visuals that touch on a wide range of topics during his show, including showing victims of conflict, U.S. troops killed in Iraq and the death of Iranian political protester Neda Agha-Soltan.
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Comments

  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    '...what has proved the greater concern for Foxman is Waters' support of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement, which calls for economic, political and cultural pressure on Israel to protest its policies against the Palestinians.

    "Artistic license doesn't cover everything, it covers the symbolism," Foxman says, adding: "You can criticize Israel, but you cannot criticize its existence."


    Because protesting Israel's policies against the Palestinians - i.e, ethnic cleansing - constitutes criticizing Israel's existence.

    Prick.

    I wonder how Jews would have felt during WWII if everytime their persecution by the Nazis was mentioned, someone had accused them of trying to 'delegitimize' Germany?
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    I wonder how Jews would have felt during WWII if everytime their persecution by the Nazis was mentioned, someone had accused them of trying to 'delegitimize' Germany?

    This is what flabbergasts me- the mentality they now possess after such strong persecution by the Nazi movement. One would think they would be the ardent supporters of the oppressed... not the oppressors.

    I've said it before- shameful.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,581
    Rock stars and symbols together should not be taken seriously. Sid Vicious wore swastikas but that didn't make him a Nazi. Dumb maybe, but not a Nazi.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    I guess when there's no way of winning your case, you can always resort to the anti-Semite name calling.
  • PingfahPingfah Posts: 350
    brianlux wrote:
    Rock stars and symbols together should not be taken seriously. Sid Vicious wore swastikas but that didn't make him a Nazi. Dumb maybe, but not a Nazi.

    This is not the same situation, Water's symbolism is not being done for shock value like the Pistols and Nazi imagery, he is trying to make a serious point, and it is absolutely reasonable to take him seriously. Being a rock star does not mean he can't have legitimate political comment.
  • Some groups of people just like to complain a tad too much. Suck it up people, not everybody is going to like you or the things you do or what you stand for. Fuckin' whiners!

    Good on Roger Waters. He explains it to the point in this interview.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PUyVZ0t1sU

    A lot of good, quick interviews via the hardtalk BBC.

    The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08

  • I thought it was somewhat laughable that they asked for the dollar symbols to be further away from the stars of david. :roll:
    Gimli 1993
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 37,581
    Pingfah wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Rock stars and symbols together should not be taken seriously. Sid Vicious wore swastikas but that didn't make him a Nazi. Dumb maybe, but not a Nazi.

    This is not the same situation, Water's symbolism is not being done for shock value like the Pistols and Nazi imagery, he is trying to make a serious point, and it is absolutely reasonable to take him seriously. Being a rock star does not mean he can't have legitimate political comment.

    You are correct. I should have read the article more closely. :)
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    "Artistic license doesn't cover everything, it covers the symbolism," Foxman says, adding: "You can criticize Israel, but you cannot criticize its existence."

    I love this….the ADL thinks they are world censors. Who the fuck is Abe Foxman to say what I can and can’t criticize?
    I can criticize Israel, but not its’ existence? ….says you? As Byrnzie points out – criticizing Israel is not criticizing Jews as a whole, so save the ‘hate speech’ accusations.

    Israel continues to take steps that make a two-state solution next to impossible….. If we eventually conclude that a two state solution is dead….we are left with two choices: a single democratic state (out of the question to the Zionist hawks in Israel), or….continued ethnic cleansing to ensure a Jewish majority.

    why can I not criticize the existence of a nation that bases citizenship, civil, and human rights on the religion subscribed to? I think it’s fair to say that the majority of informed, rational people think that using religion as a precursor to rights is a completely unacceptable approach to statehood. To call this model ‘democracy’ is ridiculous.
    Making these points immediately results in being called an anti-semite, because they can only lead to questioning the legitimacy of Israel as a jewish state. Like most people, when backed into a corner and losing a debate, Israel’s supporters resort to ad hominem attacks, and appeals to pathos by screaming anti-semite….


    This is a good documentary….it addresses modern anti-semitism and exposes the ADL for the joke that it is…

    Defamation
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67H-pLvbCIs
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,219
    Israel might want to learn a lesson from history and stop treating others in 2013... like the Nazis treated them in 1939.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • I stopped liking Waters when he assumed leadership which inevitably caused the break up of Pink Floyd.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 20,047
    "Artistic license doesn't cover everything, it covers the symbolism," Foxman says, adding: "You can criticize Israel, but you cannot criticize its existence."

    I love this….the ADL thinks they are world censors. Who the fuck is Abe Foxman to say what I can and can’t criticize?
    I can criticize Israel, but not its’ existence? ….says you? As Byrnzie points out – criticizing Israel is not criticizing Jews as a whole, so save the ‘hate speech’ accusations.

    Israel continues to take steps that make a two-state solution next to impossible….. If we eventually conclude that a two state solution is dead….we are left with two choices: a single democratic state (out of the question to the Zionist hawks in Israel), or….continued ethnic cleansing to ensure a Jewish majority.

    why can I not criticize the existence of a nation that bases citizenship, civil, and human rights on the religion subscribed to? I think it’s fair to say that the majority of informed, rational people think that using religion as a precursor to rights is a completely unacceptable approach to statehood. To call this model ‘democracy’ is ridiculous.
    Making these points immediately results in being called an anti-semite, because they can only lead to questioning the legitimacy of Israel as a jewish state. Like most people, when backed into a corner and losing a debate, Israel’s supporters resort to ad hominem attacks, and appeals to pathos by screaming anti-semite
    ….


    This is a good documentary….it addresses modern anti-semitism and exposes the ADL for the joke that it is…

    Defamation
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67H-pLvbCIs
    i could have not stated the underlined parts any better myself. well stated Drowned Out.

    tumblr_lzkbulsELT1qhpkwoo1_400.gif
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • He is definitely not an anti-Semite.

    I saw his Wall concert, and if I am remembering correctly, one of the graphics on the screen criticizes all religions.
    ~Carter~

    You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
    or you can come to terms and realize
    you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
    makes much more sense to live in the present tense
    - Present Tense
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    Foxman says, adding: "You can criticize Israel, but you cannot criticize its existence."

    Yet they can deny the Palestinians right to exist. No surprise there.
  • He is definitely not an anti-Semite.

    I saw his Wall concert, and if I am remembering correctly, one of the graphics on the screen criticizes all religions.

    that's my take on it as well.
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  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Interview with Roger Waters: ‘It’s a duty for artists to speak out’
    Frank Barat on December 7, 2013

    A conversation with Roger Waters
    Phone interview recorded on 4th December 2013
    By Frank Barat for “The Wall has ears”
    Listen to full audio version of interview here.

    Frank Barat: When did you make the decision to make the « Wall tour » (that ended in Paris in September 2013) so political ? And why did you dedicate the final concert to Jean-Charles De Menezes ?

    Roger Waters: The first show was October 14th 2010. We started working on content of show with Sean Evans in 2009. I had already decided to make it much broader politically than it had been in 1979/80. It could not be just about this whinny little guy who didn’t like his teachers. It had to be more universal. That’s why ‘fallen loved ones’ came into it (the shows are showing pictures of people that died during wars) trying to universalise the sense of grief and loss that we all feel towards family members killed in conflict. Whatever the wars or the circumstances,they (in the non western world), feel has much lost as we do. Wars become an important symbol because of that separation between ‘us and them,’ which is fundamental to all conflicts. Regarding Jean-Charles, we used to do Brick II with three solos at the end and I decided that three solos was too much, it was boring me. So sitting in a hotel room, one night, I was thinking about what I could do instead of that. Somebody had recently sent me a photograph of Jean-Charles De Menezes to go on the wall. So he was in my mind and I thought that I should sing his story. I wrote that song, taught it to the band, and that’s what we did.

    FB: A lot of artist would say that mixing arts and politics is wrong. That their goal is only to entertain. What would you say to those people?

    RW: Well it’s funny you should say that because I just finished yesterday the text of a new piece which will be a new album of mine. It’s about a grandfather in Northern Ireland going on a quest with his grandchild to find the answer to the question: “Why are they killing the children?”, because the child is really worried about it. Right at the very end of it, I decided to add something more. In the song, the child tells his grandpa: “Is that it?” and the grandpa replies “No, we cannot leave on that note, give me another note”. A new song starts and the grandpa makes a speech. He says: “We live on a tiny dot in a middle of a lot of fucking nothing. Now, if you’re not interested in any of this, if you’re one of those “Roger I love Pink Floyd but I hate your fucking politics”, if you believe artists should be mute, emasculated, nodding dogs dangling aimlessly over the dashboard of life, you might be well advised to fuck off to the bar now, because, time keeps slipping away.”That’s my answer to your question.

    FB: When will album be out?

    RW: I’ve got no idea. I’m working away furiously on lots of old projects. I’m going to give a first listen to this to Sean Evans. He’s coming to my house tomorrow to listen to it. I’ve made a demo which is one hour and six minutes long. It’s pretty heavy I confess, but there is also some humor in it, I hope, but it’s extremely radical and it poses very important questions. Look, if I’m the only one doing it, I am entirely content. I mean, I’m not, I wish there were more people writing about politics and our real situation. Even from what could be considered extreme points of view. It’s very important that Goya did what he did, same for Picasso and Guernica and all those anti-war novels that came out during and after the Vietnam war.

    FB: You’re talking about yourself being one of the only one, in your position, taking radical political positions. When it comes to Palestine, you are very open about your support for a cultural boycott of Israel. People opposing this tactic say that culture should not be boycotted. What would you answer to that?

    RW: I would say that I understand their opinion. Everybody should have one. But I can’t agree with them, I think that they are entirely wrong. The situation in Israel/ Palestine, with the occupation, the ethnic cleansing and the systematic racist apartheid Israeli regime is unacceptable. So for an artist to go and play in a country that occupies other people’s land and oppresses them the way Israel does, is plain wrong. They should say no. I would not have played for the Vichy government in occupied France in the Second World War, I would not have played in Berlin either during this time. Many people did, back in the day. There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it’s the Palestinian People being murdered. It’s the duty of every thinking human being to ask: “What can I do?”. Anybody who looks at the situation will see that if you choose not to take up arms to fight your oppressor, the non violent route, and the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (B.D.S) movement, which started in Palestine with 100% support from Palestinian civil society in 2004-2005, a movement that has now been joined by many people around the world, the global civil society, is a legitimate form of resistance to this brutal and oppressive regime. I have nearly finished Max Blumenthal’s book Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel. It’s a chilling read. It’s extremely well written in my view. He is a very good journalist and takes great pains to make sure that what he writes is correct. He also gives a voice to the other side. The voice, for instance, of the right wing rabbinate, which is so bizarre and hard to hear that you can hardly believe that it’s real. They believe some very weird stuff you know, they believe that everybody that is not a Jew is only on earth to serve them and they believe that the Indigenous people of the region that they kicked off the land in 1948 and have continued to kick off the land ever since are sub-human. The parallels with what went on in the 30’s in Germany are so crushingly obvious that it doesn’t surprise me that the movement that both you and I are involved in is growing every day. The Russell Tribunal on Palestine was trying to shed light on this when we met, I only took part in two sessions, you took part in many more. It is an extremely obvious and fundamental problem of human rights which every thinking human being should apply himself to.

    FB: The scary thing is that the extreme Rabbinate you were talking about with the extreme right wing views about the Palestinians and the non-Jews are having a more and more prominent place in terms of the Israeli society, regime and power structure and that is very scary.

    I wanted to follow up on the Cultural Boycott and about the fact that you are one of the only ones who take such a stand. You could, as many others do, I guess enjoy the benefits of your success and lead a quiet, at least politically, non-controversial life. Why do you do it but more importantly why do you think not more people are doing it? Why a lot of artists who often take position against wars, why don’t they touch Palestine?

    RW: Well, where I live, in the USA, I think, A: they are frightened and B: I think the propaganda machine that starts in Israeli schools and that continues through all the Netanyahu’s bluster is poured all over the United States, not just Fox but also CNN and in fact in all the mainstream media. It’s like a huge bucket of crap that they are pouring into the mouth of a gullible public in my view, when they say “we are afraid of Iran, it is going to get nuclear weapons…”. It’s a diversionary tactic. The lie that they have told for the last 20 years is “Oh, we want to make peace”, you know and they talk about Clinton and Arafat and Barak being in Camp David and that they came very close to agreeing, and the story that they sold was “Oh Arafat fucked it all up”. Well, no, he did not. This is not the story. The fact of the matter is no Israeli government has been serious about creating a Palestinian state since 1948. They’ve always had the Ben Gurion agenda of kicking all the Arabs out of the country and becoming greater Israel. They tell a lie as part of their propaganda machinery whilst doing the other thing but they have been doing it so obviously in the last 10 years . For instance, even after when Obama went to Cairo and made that speech about Arabs and the Israelis, everybody was like “Oh, this is a step in a new direction at least”. But as soon as he visited Israel, they said. “Oh by the way, we are building another 1200 settlements”. Exactly the same when Kerry went last year saying, “Oh I am going to try to get the sides together and talk peace”. Netanhayu said “Fuck you. We are going to build another 1500 settlements and we a going to build them in E1, this is our plan.” This is so transparent that you’d have to have an IQ above room temperature not to understand what is going on. It is just dopey.

    You know I read some piece the other day where it said “apparently only the Secretary State of the United States, believes that these current peace talks are real, no one else in the world does”.

    It is a very complicated situation which is why you and I and all the other people in the world who care about their brothers and sisters and not just about the people of our own faith, our own colour, our own race or our own whatever, have to stand in solidarity shoulder to shoulder. This has been a very hard sell particularly where I live in the United States of America. The Jewish lobby is extraordinary powerful here and particularly in the industry that I work in, the music industry and in rock’n roll as they say. I promise you, naming no names, I’ve spoken to people who are terrified that if they stand shoulder to shoulder with me they are going to get fucked. They have said to me “aren’t you worried for your life?” and I go “No, I’m not”. A few years ago, I was touring and 9/11 happened in the middle of the tour and 2 or 3 people in my band who happened to be United States citizens wouldn’t come on the next leg of the tour. I said “ why not? Don’t you like the music anymore?” and they replied “no, we love the music but we are Americans and it’s too dangerous for us to travel abroad, they are trying to kill us” and I thought “Wow!”.

    FB: Yes, the brainwashing works!

    RW: Obviously it does, that is why I am happy to be doing this interview with you because it is super important that we make as much noise as possible. I’m so glad that this right wing newspaper in Israel, Yedioth Ahronoth, printed my interview with Alon Hadar. At least they printed it. Although they changed the context and made it sound different that what is actually was but at least they printed something. You know, I would expect to be completely suppressed and ignored.

    You know that Shuki Weiss( preeminent Israeli promotor) was offering me a hundred thousand people at hundred dollars a ticket a few months ago to come and play in Tel Aviv! “Hang on, that’s 10 million dollars”, how could they offer it to me?! And I thought Shuki are you fucking deaf or just dumb?! I am part of the BDS movement, I’m not going anywhere in Israel, for any money, all I would be doing would be legitimizing the policies of the government.

    I have a confession to make to you. I did actually write to Cindy Lauper a couple of weeks ago. I did not make the letter public but I wrote her a letter because I know her a bit, she worked with me on the Wall in Berlin which is why I found it super difficult to understand that she is doing a gig in Tel Aviv on January the 4th. apparently, quite extraordinary, reprehensible in my view, but I don’t know her personal story and people have to make up their own mind about these things. One can’t get to personal about it.

    FB: For sure but you can help them, I guess by what you are doing, by writing to them. You can open their eyes because that’s what they need I think.

    RW: Yes but if their eyes were going to be opened they would need to either visit the Holy land, visit the West Bank or Gaza or even visit Israel or any single checkpoint anywhere and see what it’s like. All they would need to do is visiting or, read, read a book! Check out the history. Read Max Blumenthal’s book. Then say “Oh I know what I am going to do, I am going to play a gig in Tel Aviv”. That would be a good plan! (sarcastic tone).
    http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/interview ... tists.html
  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    It's to bad more artists dnt have the balls that roger does. Awesome read. Awesome human citizen. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

    Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

    Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.
    still so disappointed by this. They created some of my all-time favourite music. They will get no more money from me....well...I might see them live if I could get near the front....wearing a Keffiyeh and waving a Palestinian flag in his face.
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin LouisPosts: 20,047
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

    Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.
    still so disappointed by this. They created some of my all-time favourite music. They will get no more money from me....well...I might see them live if I could get near the front....wearing a Keffiyeh and waving a Palestinian flag in his face.
    unfortunately, knowing farrell's stance on the issue, that might get you "removed" from the venue... :( he might find it appropriate to expand his area of the stage onto your little space in the GA area...
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Byrnzie wrote:
    '...what has proved the greater concern for Foxman is Waters' support of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement, which calls for economic, political and cultural pressure on Israel to protest its policies against the Palestinians.

    "Artistic license doesn't cover everything, it covers the symbolism," Foxman says, adding: "You can criticize Israel, but you cannot criticize its existence."


    Because protesting Israel's policies against the Palestinians - i.e, ethnic cleansing - constitutes criticizing Israel's existence.

    Prick.

    I wonder how Jews would have felt during WWII if everytime their persecution by the Nazis was mentioned, someone had accused them of trying to 'delegitimize' Germany?

    awesome post.

    Godfather.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    He is definitely not an anti-Semite.

    I saw his Wall concert, and if I am remembering correctly, one of the graphics on the screen criticizes all religions.

    that's my take on it as well.


    I saw the first tour in L.A and non of that even crossed my mind, it was and still is to this day one of the top 3 shows I have ever seen.....it is #1 of the three.


    Godfather.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    From the Guardian...

    http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/d ... rael-nazis

    Former Pink Floyd frontman sparks fury by comparing Israelis to Nazis

    Religious leaders react angrily to Roger Waters' latest outspoken attack on treatment of Palestinians



    Vanessa Thorpe and Edward Helmore in New York
    The Observer, Saturday 14 December 2013



    Inflammatory remarks by the musician Roger Waters, formerly of Pink Floyd, comparing the modern Israeli state to Nazi Germany have put him at the centre of a furious dispute.

    Performers and religious figures reacted angrily to the veteran rock star's argument that Israeli treatment of the Palestinians can be compared to the atrocities of Nazi Germany. "The parallels with what went on in the 1930s in Germany are so crushingly obvious," he said in an American online interview last week.

    Waters, 70, a well-known supporter of the Palestinian cause, has frequently defended himself against accusations that he is antisemitic, claiming he has a right to urge fellow artists to boycott Israel.

    This summer he was criticised for using a pig-shaped balloon adorned with Jewish symbols, including a Star of David, as one part of the stage effects at his concerts. Waters countered that it was just one of several religious and political symbols in the show and not an attempt to single out Judaism as an evil force.

    Now leading American thinker Rabbi Shmuley Boteach has raised the stakes by describing Waters' views as audacious and clearly antisemitic.

    Writing in the New York Observer, the rabbi said: "Mr Waters, the Nazis were a genocidal regime that murdered six million Jews. That you would have the audacity to compare Jews to monsters who murdered them shows you have no decency, you have no heart, you have no soul." The rabbi was responding to Waters's latest comments on the Middle East. Speaking to the leftwing CounterPunch magazine, the musician criticised the US government for being unduly influenced by the Israeli "propaganda machine".

    The former Pink Floyd frontman, who has recently toured the world with a show based on the influential 1979 album The Wall, went on to describe the Israeli rabbinate as "bizarre" and accused them of believing that Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East were "sub-human". Waters suggested the "Jewish lobby" was "extraordinarily powerful". On the subject of the Holocaust, he said: "There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it's the Palestinian people being murdered."

    Speaking from New York on Saturday night, Waters strongly rejected Rabbi Boteach's characterisation of his views. He said: "I do not know Rabbi Boteach, and am not prepared to get into a slanging match with him. I will say this: I have nothing against Jews or Israelis, and I am not antisemitic. I deplore the policies of the Israeli government in the occupied territories and Gaza. They are immoral, inhuman and illegal. I will continue my non-violent protests as long as the government of Israel continues with these policies.

    "If Rabbi Boteach can make a case for the Israel government's policies, I look forward to hearing it. It is difficult to make arguments to defend the Israeli government's policies, so would-be defenders often use a diversionary tactic, they routinely drag the critic into a public arena and accuse them of being an antisemite."

    Waters continued: "The Holocaust was brutal and disgusting beyond our imagination. We must never forget it. We must always remain vigilant. We must never stand by silent and indifferent to the sufferings of others, whatever their race, colour, ethnic background or religion. All human beings deserve the right to live equally under the law."

    Karen Pollock, chief executive of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said: "Everyone is entitled to an opinion and to advocate passionately for a cause, but drawing inappropriate parallels with the Holocaust insults the memory of the six million Jews – men, women and children – murdered by the Nazis. These kinds of attacks are commonly used as veiled antisemitism and should be exposed as such."

    Jo-Ann Mort, vice-chair of US Jewish group Americans for Peace Now, is calling for musicians and other entertainers to go to Israel to understand that there is also Israeli opposition to discrimination against Arabs. Speaking to the Observer from California, she said it was important for international performers to "speak their mind to audiences about the nation's successes and failures. Just as Israeli musicians – Jewish, Muslim and Christian – do."

    "The media in Israel flock to foreign entertainers. Performers would have the opportunity to make their viewpoints known – and it will also help to break the logjam that fundamentalists have had on both sides," she argued.

    Mort supports the anti-boycott approach of Israeli singer and activist David Broza, whose forthcoming album East Jerusalem/West Jerusalem features covers of songs that urge understanding, including Waters's own song Mother, from the album The Wall.

    "Music captivates your head and your mind," Broza recently argued. "If it comes with good vibes, then everyone wants to be part of it. The hard work comes from having a belief in what you are doing and in not stopping at the barricades that are posted at every corner."

    Last week Waters's words drew a strong response from the Community Security Trust, the body that monitors anti-Jewish activity in Britain. A spokesman told the Jewish Chronicle that Waters's comments "echo the language of antisemitism" and added that the musician was "living proof of how easily people who pursue extreme anti-Israel politics can drift into antisemitic statements and ideas".

    Bicom, the UK-based Israel advocacy organisation, also condemned Waters's views. Chief executive Dermot Kehoe said: "The statements by Roger Waters calling for a cultural boycott of Israel and comparing the country to Nazi Germany are repugnant and fly in the face of both the reality in Israel today and the ongoing peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians."

    In August Waters used his Facebook page to respond to allegations that he was an "open hater of Jews", made by Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in an interview with an American weekly Jewish newspaper, the Algemeiner.

    "Often I can ignore these attacks, but Rabbi Cooper's accusations are so wild and bigoted they demand a response," Waters wrote, adding that he had "many very close Jewish friends".
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    It is interesting to note that he's being attacked for having apparently compared the Israeli's to Nazis, considering he did nothing of the sort. But then, if you have no defence, I suppose your only recourse is to make shit up, and then use that bullshit as a platform from which to pull the anti-Semitism card.

    Here's what he said:

    "There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it's the Palestinian people being murdered."
  • Byrnzie wrote:
    If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

    Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

    Have you ever actually been there?

    So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).
  • sploatee wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

    Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

    Have you ever actually been there?

    So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).

    You have to be there or have gone there to know it is a racist state? Isn't that what the news or reading is for, because I for one would have had a hard time travelling to the Philippines but yet somehow by osmosis I found out that there was a devastating typhoon. But I would be happy to relate a virtual tour for anyone who is interested what it is like to go the West Bank via tel aviv or Allenby or Gaza via Egypt.

    And Byrnzie is not being hateful. He is one of the very few people in this world who care enough to inform himself and bring awareness to this conflict. There is no hate in standing up against land theft, ethnic cleansing and the killing and incarceration of innocent women and children. I would say that this comes from a place that is good and generous, not hate.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    sploatee wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

    Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

    Have you ever actually been there?

    So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).

    Have I actually been there? Why? You think that if I visited the Occupied Territories then I'd see the error of my ways and begin supporting ethnic cleansing?

    And as for not getting 'peace that way', boycotts worked in toppling Apartheid South Africa, so what makes you think they wouldn't work in ending the Israeli occupation?
  • sploatee wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If I had the option of taking Perry Farrell's advice and supporting the IDF and the bombing of civilians viewtopic.php?f=13&t=208460&p=5057953&hilit=Perry+Farrell#p5057953, or taking the advice of Roger Waters, I think I know which way I'd lean. Waters is spot-on in that interview.

    Can't see pearl Jam playing in that dangerous racist state any time soon.

    Have you ever actually been there?

    So much hate in this thread, it's kind of sad. You don't get peace that way (either on the Israeli side or the Palestinian side).

    You have to be there or have gone there to know it is a racist state? Isn't that what the news or reading is for, because I for one would have had a hard time travelling to the Philippines but yet somehow by osmosis I found out that there was a devastating typhoon. But I would be happy to relate a virtual tour for anyone who is interested what it is like to go the West Bank via tel aviv or Allenby or Gaza via Egypt.

    And Byrnzie is not being hateful. He is one of the very few people in this world who care enough to inform himself and bring awareness to this conflict. There is no hate in standing up against land theft, ethnic cleansing and the killing and incarceration of innocent women and children. I would say that this comes from a place that is good and generous, not hate.

    Very few people? I would say that most people are on the 'side' of the Palestinians. It's sad that there is even a 'side'.

    My point is that I don't see how turning up to a concert in Israel dressed like a 'freedom fighter' is a constructive, positive thing. I don't think things are as black-and-white as you do. It's incredibly easy to just dismiss everything about Israel as horrible and hate personified. But it's simply not true. There are many Israelis who oppose what the government does. There are Israeli Arabs who are successful and happy in the so-called apartheid state. Given your username, I wouldn't be surprised if you stopped reading in anger there!

    But there are two sides to every story and you can't have peace without accepting that. I know about the horror of Sabra and Shatila. What about the Jews in Arab countries who were purged and forced to flee? I know about the idiotic settlers who think they have a divine right to somebody else's home. But what about the racist filth propagated by Arab - including Palestinian - state channels; it's not political commentary - it's as vicious, racist and hate-filled as all of the actions you attribute to the Israeli government.

    But I know how this works; you will come back with facts, and I will go back to you with facts and nobody gets anywhere, nobody ever changes their mind and everyone gets angry - it's exactly what goes on whenever nationalism and religion intoxicate people on both sides. This is what makes me sad. If it makes you feel better venting and raging on the internet about evil Israel, then great. That's not the kind of thing that promotes dialogue - and it's dialogue that will help improve the terrible conditions Palestinians live in - especially in Gaza.

    You want PJ to boycott Israel - cool, that's fine. I never thought that was the kind of thing they would stood for. You'll say "of course, they stand against evil!" But I prefer to think this might be more the way to do things:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projects_w ... d_Israelis

    Palestinians and Israelis need to talk more. You don't get to talk more by taking a 'side'. But I'm guessing from your name that your mind might already be made up?
  • sploatee wrote:
    There are many Israelis who oppose what the government does. There are Israeli Arabs who are successful and happy in the so-called apartheid state.

    this is something that causes this discussion to go round and round on a constant basis. of COURSE there are israelis who oppose what their government does. no one is talking about individual israelis in the course of these discussions. we are talking about those in power.

    look at it this way: no one with a brain paints the entire US as a war-mongering self-serving entity; just some of the governments that have won out of fear and by miniscule margins fit that bill. but some get up in arms when someone criticizes the US without constantly clarifying by using the word "government".
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  • sploatee wrote:
    Very few people? I would say that most people are on the 'side' of the Palestinians. It's sad that there is even a 'side'.

    My point is that I don't see how turning up to a concert in Israel dressed like a 'freedom fighter' is a constructive, positive thing. I don't think things are as black-and-white as you do. It's incredibly easy to just dismiss everything about Israel as horrible and hate personified. But it's simply not true. There are many Israelis who oppose what the government does. There are Israeli Arabs who are successful and happy in the so-called apartheid state. Given your username, I wouldn't be surprised if you stopped reading in anger there!

    But there are two sides to every story and you can't have peace without accepting that. I know about the horror of Sabra and Shatila. What about the Jews in Arab countries who were purged and forced to flee? I know about the idiotic settlers who think they have a divine right to somebody else's home. But what about the racist filth propagated by Arab - including Palestinian - state channels; it's not political commentary - it's as vicious, racist and hate-filled as all of the actions you attribute to the Israeli government.

    But I know how this works; you will come back with facts, and I will go back to you with facts and nobody gets anywhere, nobody ever changes their mind and everyone gets angry - it's exactly what goes on whenever nationalism and religion intoxicate people on both sides. This is what makes me sad. If it makes you feel better venting and raging on the internet about evil Israel, then great. That's not the kind of thing that promotes dialogue - and it's dialogue that will help improve the terrible conditions Palestinians live in - especially in Gaza.

    You want PJ to boycott Israel - cool, that's fine. I never thought that was the kind of thing they would stood for. You'll say "of course, they stand against evil!" But I prefer to think this might be more the way to do things:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projects_w ... d_Israelis

    Palestinians and Israelis need to talk more. You don't get to talk more by taking a 'side'. But I'm guessing from your name that your mind might already be made up?

    Yes it is sad that there is even a side. When Zionists decided to dispossess the Palestinians of their land they created these “sides.” When Zionists acted in their belief of superiority on their claims on the land of Palestine and pushed the Palestinians off their land, and not allowing them the right to return to that land by force, then yes, sides naturally, or rather unnaturally form.

    Howard Zinn stated and very fittingly for this forum, “You can’t stay neutral on a Moving Train.” And to what this thread is about, Roger Waters, by picking a “side,” is he an anti-Semite? Is the statement he made with his art hateful? Drowned Out posted and excellent interview and this great man, a brave man, who explained his position, not sure if you read it, but to reiterate a small part:

    “I would say that I understand their opinion. Everybody should have one. But I can’t agree with them, I think that they are entirely wrong. The situation in Israel/ Palestine, with the occupation, the ethnic cleansing and the systematic racist apartheid Israeli regime is unacceptable. So for an artist to go and play in a country that occupies other people’s land and oppresses them the way Israel does, is plain wrong. They should say no. I would not have played for the Vichy government in occupied France in the Second World War, I would not have played in Berlin either during this time. Many people did, back in the day. There were many people that pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933 until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it’s the Palestinian People being murdered. It’s the duty of every thinking human being to ask: “What can I do?”.”

    He is not being anti-Semitic or hateful. And maybe that is what drives some of us to post on this thread, which you mislabeled as being hate filled, the question of “What can I do?” It is not hate to want justice for all, equality for all. Are Roger Waters or Brynzie or others (and now as I just read and great applause to US Academics who now support a Cultural Boycott) being hateful or anti-Semitic when calling israel an Apartheid State and demanding measures to end it? Well as a Palestinian who has witnessed it first-hand, who witnessed the wall going up, in the beginning piece by piece, and what it did to families and communities, that it separated East Jerusalem from parts of the West Bank; that the Jewish people who live in the West Bank have different license plates, access to different roads, are more privileged than the rest of the Occupied Territories, easily pass through checkpoints, easily get to school, get to work, to Jerusalem, basically freedom that is not equally shared by the Palestinian living down the road. Roads that are APART, rules and privileges that are APART, well that is where Apartheid, comes from, no? Apart-Hate.

    A very recent example of this, a Jewish web site advertising an apartment in Occupied Jerusalem, for “Jews Only,” In South Africa were not there the same signs and racist statements declaring “Whites Only.” http://www.imemc.org/article/66570 “Hate filled.”

    From his interview he seems very passionate on an end to Apartheid, to end hate. To call him anti-Semitic is a cold and calculated move to close or mar his career. It is libelous. The term is meant to punish and quiet dissent against the state of israel . The more in the public eye, the more the term is brandished about, quite like a Scarlet A. And those in the public eye willing to risk this are very few. This is not about his use of the Star of David, which was used along with the symbols for Islam and Christianity, this is reverb from when he dared to cancel his concert in israel and visit the West Bank, he signed the apartheid wall and the bulls eye was placed. The attacks and the misconstruing of his words are now headlines, a concerted effort to treat israel with a sensitivity and shield not afforded to the Palestinians or their supporters when reporting this story is evident. It looks like the mainstream media has selected a “side.”
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