LostProphets - Ian Watkins

pdalowsky

As a fan of their first record, I think its time to go home and snap it into a million pieces.

what a verminous piece of shit: -

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rock-singer-tr ... ml#KBDbbMl

facepollution

Absolutely horrendous, beyond fucked up......it was obvious he was guilty, but reading everything that's come out today is absolutely sickening.

dustinpardue

Situations like this are times i believe in the death penalty

facepollution

dustinpardue wrote:

Situations like this are times i believe in the death penalty

Not to excuse his actions in any way, but to me this is mental illness in its most extreme manifestation, and personally I think such people need to be locked up for everybody's safety. I completely understand where you are coming from though...........

goldrush

This is really fucking sickening. I'm always skeptical when people try to hide behind the mental illness defence (it sometimes seems too convenient, like the insanity plea. How do you prove them wrong?) but mentally ill or not there is special place in hell for these 3 people.

If it's even possible, I think it may be worse than the Operation Yewtree scandal. This guy is young, good looking and had millions of young, impressionable fans to prey on. It makes you shudder to think that there are people like this out there.

facepollution

goldrush wrote:

This is really fucking sickening. I'm always skeptical when people try to hide behind the mental illness defence (it sometimes seems too convenient, like the insanity plea. How do you prove them wrong?) but mentally ill or not there is special place in hell for these 3 people.

It pretty much fits the definition of mental illness though:

mental illness
n.
Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors, such as infection or head trauma. Also called emotional illness, mental disease, mental disorder.

To flip it around, perhaps it is serving our own needs more to deny it is a form of mental illness - a need to define it on our own terms rather than concede that a person isn't just plain 'evil' inspite of their evil deeds.

pdalowsky

Whilst I admire your understanding nature and ability to apply reason where there seems to be none

I think this is a dude Inherently damaged... I read he was into drugs in a big way too. Just a total waste of space and a despicable person. Those who joined him are even worse. Mothers ... Fucking mothers ??? I hope they throw away the key

goldrush

facepollution wrote:

goldrush wrote:

This is really fucking sickening. I'm always skeptical when people try to hide behind the mental illness defence (it sometimes seems too convenient, like the insanity plea. How do you prove them wrong?) but mentally ill or not there is special place in hell for these 3 people.

It pretty much fits the definition of mental illness though:

mental illness
n.
Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors, such as infection or head trauma. Also called emotional illness, mental disease, mental disorder.

To flip it around, perhaps it is serving our own needs more to deny it is a form of mental illness - a need to define it on our own terms rather than concede that a person isn't just plain 'evil' inspite of their evil deeds.

I understand that mental illness is a big issue and that there are a lot of people that suffer from it. I've seen the effects of it first hand and have lost friends and family to it. However, you see far too many people these days claiming insanity or mental impairment/illness when they are faced with the harsh reality of being caught and having to pay for their crimes.

Maybe you are a more understanding person than me, or maybe I am just too cynical, but I find it hard to believe that something as evil and disturbing as this can be passed off as mental illness. I can't even read what the mothers did to their own children without feeling physically sick. Are they pleading mental illness too? That wasn't clear in the article.

Loulou

I just can't see this being a mental illness, what about the mothers that went along with it? Are they mentally ill too? This man is an evil prick and deserves to die, however that's too quick and not painful enough. Much better for him to rot in jail where he will get what's coming to him from the other prisoners.

facepollution

Loulou wrote:

I just can't see this being a mental illness, what about the mothers that went along with it? Are they mentally ill too? This man is an evil prick and deserves to die, however that's too quick and not painful enough. Much better for him to rot in jail where he will get what's coming to him from the other prisoners.

How can this NOT be mental illness? And absolutely they are mentally ill too - this is not normal behaviour. Read the definition I posted, it's pretty all-encompassing, not some rigid set of rules. It's not in any way justifying what he did or excusing his actions.

This isn't about me being more understanding or being compassionate, it's about finding rationale in a really fucked up situation, rather than using mythical words like 'evil' which give us zero understanding. As messed up as this situation is, there will be an intricate set of events/reasons as to how he became capable of comitting such horrendous acts. It seems though that when these acts are so grotesque that the scale tips and people won't even consider any logical explanation, they just revert to words like 'evil' and 'monster'.

Just to clarify, mentally ill or not, I still think he's a piece of shit, and I hope they throw away the key.

Loulou

facepollution wrote:

Loulou wrote:

I just can't see this being a mental illness, what about the mothers that went along with it? Are they mentally ill too? This man is an evil prick and deserves to die, however that's too quick and not painful enough. Much better for him to rot in jail where he will get what's coming to him from the other prisoners.

How can this NOT be mental illness? And absolutely they are mentally ill too - this is not normal behaviour. Read the definition I posted, it's pretty all-encompassing, not some rigid set of rules. It's not in any way justifying what he did or excusing his actions.

This isn't about me being more understanding or being compassionate, it's about finding rationale in a really fucked up situation, rather than using mythical words like 'evil' which give us zero understanding. As messed up as this situation is, there will be an intricate set of events/reasons as to how he became capable of comitting such horrendous acts. It seems though that when these acts are so grotesque that the scale tips and people won't even consider any logical explanation, they just revert to words like 'evil' and 'monster'.

Just to clarify, mentally ill or not, I still think he's a piece of shit, and I hope they throw away the key.

Look, I do understand where your coming from but I'm pretty comfortable with referring to him as evil. I guess my worry is that when you start finding rational explanations for people like him, you give him an excuse for his behaviour of which there is none. (Not implying you are looking to excuse him, I know your just trying to make sense of it)

pdalowsky

explaining it as mental illness may well have substance, because the instant reaction from so many was 'how could anyone do this'. Its so far past our comprehension, its so far out of anyones zone of understanding, there has to be a reason for this type of behaviour.....

personally im not convinced, I think its possible for a person to be appalling, bad to the core, and damaged yet not suffer a mental illness. Of course 'mental illness' is a very wide ranging thing, and can not be pigeon holed at all. But I fail to believe all three of these idiots were suffering mentally.

The two twisted little scumbags whom abused Jamie Bulger 20 years ago were not found to be mentally ill, and despite them being young, they were just horrible horrible scumbags that deserve nothing but enduring pain. That case makes me sick the stomach to this day.

I think its far more a case of this imbecile acting on his impulses, because he thought he was untouchable......and I assume the drugs played a huge part in that.

The more I see of it on the news, the more it disturbs me.

Gold 26

"The charges included sexually touching a one-year-old and encouraging a crazed groupie to abuse her own child during a sordid webcam chat."

Good fucking God.

nickburrows14

The guy is absolute scum. His computer password was "I f*** kids". Beyond mental illness. Hope he gets what he deserves in prison.

DewieCox

He obviously has severe mental issues, but it seems like he had an awareness for what he was doing and that it was incredibly fucked up. Just by some of the wording he uses, he knew how heinous it was.

There's no punishment bad enough to atone for the sick shit that he or those mothers did. Just one of the worst things I've ever heard.

JH6056

Aside from the mental health and evil issues already raised, this is another extreme example of how dangerous power and position can be. We saw it with Penn State and Sandusky, we see it in religious organizations, we see it in work situations where people are desperate to get/keep a job...: Having power over people or being someone people flock around brings that person a power that is SO DANGEROUS in the wrong hands.

I am NOT for one second forgiving these mom for their heinous actions, but the idea that they were so wanting to get close to this guy and have a connection with him that they helped him to rape their babies... shocking and hellishly horrible, and shows how fame in the wrong hands can just turn so totally ugly! And something about another fan in a webam chat and him getting her to abuse her 1 yr old? Disgusting.

What's also horrific about this is, rarely, almost NEVER did the people around this person not know what was going on, or at least have a strong clue. How do you tour with someone, share tourbuses, backstages with this guy, and never catch him watching kiddie porn or hear stories from women? Every single person who knew this guy needs to ask themselves what they knew, when, and how many kids they might have saved from horrible abuse if they'd had the guts to speak up.

But people talk themselves out of what they know in order to keep what they like. They like their fame, they like their money, they like their job, whatever. I don't know any of these people so I'm not claiming to know for a fact that someone knew, but I work with child abuse and have for years and once a sexual abuser is busted, there are almost ALWAY people who come out of the woodwork saying "Yeah, I knew something wasn't right... I never left my kids alone with that person". Really? Thanks for being a coward and not speaking up and knowing or suspecting that other kids are being harmed but not doing anything. The "Mind your own business" mentality can NOT apply when it's an issue of children and abuse. If this guy was so brazen as to have a WEB chat and do this, there's no way people close to him didn't know or see really suspicious things. Like most famous/powerful people, I'm sure he'd come to think he was beyond accountability.

SVRDhand13

A mother performed oral sex on her own baby!?!?!?!?!? Okay, now I have heard everything (and I'm sick to my stomach).

facepollution

pdalowsky wrote:

explaining it as mental illness may well have substance, because the instant reaction from so many was 'how could anyone do this'. Its so far past our comprehension, its so far out of anyones zone of understanding, there has to be a reason for this type of behaviour.....

personally im not convinced, I think its possible for a person to be appalling, bad to the core, and damaged yet not suffer a mental illness. Of course 'mental illness' is a very wide ranging thing, and can not be pigeon holed at all. But I fail to believe all three of these idiots were suffering mentally.

With the greatest respect, what do you base that on? The term mental illness is indeed very wide ranging, and at the end of the day ALL behaviours must be attributed to something, be it nature, nurture or a combination of both - just because we are not able to piece together all the factors involved doesn't mean they don't exist. When we start using terms like 'evil' it's kind of like us throwing our hands up in the air and giving up trying to understand how this kind of thing can happen. And if we give up on that, what chances do we have in trying to spot the warning signs of this type of behaviour and preventing it in the future?

pdalowsky wrote:

The two twisted little scumbags whom abused Jamie Bulger 20 years ago were not found to be mentally ill, and despite them being young, they were just horrible horrible scumbags that deserve nothing but enduring pain. That case makes me sick the stomach to this day.

The two kids who killed Jamie Bulger may not have been found to be 'mentally ill' by legal definition, but their behaviour pretty much says otherwise. It is not normal for children to behave like that - and what are the chances that two 'evil' children would end up being friends in the first place? Same thing goes for Fred and Rosemary West - what are the chances? But if you dig deeper in the case of the West's, they both suffered deeply messed up childhoods, and perhaps the similarities are what bought them together, in the same way that Watkins and these two women found each other.

nickburrows14

I don't care what label he ends up with. The sick f**k needs to be executed. End of.

moses-i

With the same respect, I don't quite understand your mental illness argument. Or rather I understand it but I don't think Watkins' mental illness is at question here but rather his "evilness". Yes, pedophilia is defined by the DSM as a psychiatric disorder (i.e. a mental illness) but it also recognizes psychopathy (or rather anti-social personality disorder) as a "mental illness". Psychopathy in some form or another is found in pretty much every type of criminal throughout the world (as well as a good deal of "respectable members of society") and like pedophilia is basically impossible to cure. Understanding criminals and particularly pedophiles is important but arguably useless because sexually active pedophiles (possibly the most seasoned and gifted psychopaths you would ever encounter) are skilled at manipulation and hiding themselves (which is why we always find them in the most unexpected and often sacred places). I think my problem (and some other peoples' issue with your argument) is that it comes off as trying to "explain" Ian Watkins. You take issue with him being labelled as "evil" and a "monster" just as some people take issue with your belief that he is essentially "disordered". Many people are disordered: schizophrenics, people with bipolar disorder, Kanye West (sorry had to throw in a bit of a joke); most of these people work very hard to manage their disorders and are functional, contributing members of society.

Pedophiles should be shown compassion in as much as they are disordered and must live with it. And this is where the Watkins case is no longer about a mental disorder. Unlike pedophiles who live with their disorder and abstain from molesting children, Watkins acted on his impulses and moreover appears to have truly reveled in his crimes to the great detriment of his victims. Also, he acted freely and knowingly against the law; he was not acting while suffering a psychotic episode (which again brings us back to the realm of mental illness). Because he acted on his desires, he is no different from anyone else who is currently incarcerated (in this one respect that he broke the law). Incidentally, even the most violent criminals have a code about the innocence of children and as such anyone who has hurt a child (but particularly pedophiles) is inevitably treated as a pariah in the prison system by fellow inmates and often killed. It speaks volumes that even in the amoral world of crime, a child's innocence is sacrosanct.

I agree with you that understanding of any type of anti-social behaviour is important to treating it or protecting society from it, but having said that our current understanding of these types of psychopathic behaviours is that some people are just inherently "evil" (and by that I mean that they weren't "made" and as such cannot be "fixed"). It may not be neat or scientific and these labels may only have value in as much as they make people feel better but sometimes a monster is just a monster. I don't think this man was a victim of his environment (same goes for the two little monsters who killed that poor boy so many years ago in the UK) however, his female co-conspirators may have been or like Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo it may just be a case of the devil knowing his own.

One last thing...I do think there is some confusion here about what you mean by mental illness. I think some people are confusing this with being found "not criminally responsible on account of mental disorder" (i.e. the insanity defense) which basically relieves the perpetrator of any responsibility for their actions. You are most certainly not suggesting this but rather that he must be understood as being a mentally disordered individual rather than an evil one. I just wanted this to be made clear for those who might be confusing your argument.

facepollution wrote:

With the greatest respect, what do you base that on? The term mental illness is indeed very wide ranging, and at the end of the day ALL behaviours must be attributed to something, be it nature, nurture or a combination of both - just because we are not able to piece together all the factors involved doesn't mean they don't exist. When we start using terms like 'evil' it's kind of like us throwing our hands up in the air and giving up trying to understand how this kind of thing can happen. And if we give up on that, what chances do we have in trying to spot the warning signs of this type of behaviour and preventing it in the future?

The two kids who killed Jamie Bulger may not have been found to be 'mentally ill' by legal definition, but their behaviour pretty much says otherwise. It is not normal for children to behave like that - and what are the chances that two 'evil' children would end up being friends in the first place? Same thing goes for Fred and Rosemary West - what are the chances? But if you dig deeper in the case of the West's, they both suffered deeply messed up childhoods, and perhaps the similarities are what bought them together, in the same way that Watkins and these two women found each other.

Loulou

Well said Moses-i :thumbup:

facepollution

moses-i wrote:

With the same respect, I don't quite understand your mental illness argument......... Understanding criminals and particularly pedophiles is important but arguably useless because sexually active pedophiles (possibly the most seasoned and gifted psychopaths you would ever encounter) are skilled at manipulation and hiding themselves (which is why we always find them in the most unexpected and often sacred places). I think my problem (and some other peoples' issue with your argument) is that it comes off as trying to "explain" Ian Watkins. You take issue with him being labelled as "evil" and a "monster" just as some people take issue with your belief that he is essentially "disordered". Many people are disordered: schizophrenics, people with bipolar disorder, Kanye West (sorry had to throw in a bit of a joke); most of these people work very hard to manage their disorders and are functional, contributing members of society.

My issue with those terms is that it's the type of thing you would read in the Sun or the Daily Mail, emotive words to describe a person or situation in place of actually trying to understand how a person could do something so amoral. Often times in these situations people say they had their suspicians, bringing attention to such a taboo subject is absolutely useful.

I'm not trying to explain him, I know very little about his personal life, my point is that there will be an intricate set of factors that led him to his behaviour, and it could only be a positive thing to try and identify some of these factors with the hope that this understanding could lead to future prevention.

I don't think he is simply 'disordered', I think he likely has any number of disorders, almost certainly narcissistic personality disorder. I don't think it's particularly useful to compare his case with a functioning schizophrenic......

moses-i wrote:

I don't think this man was a victim of his environment (same goes for the two little monsters who killed that poor boy so many years ago in the UK) however, his female co-conspirators may have been or like Karla Homolka and Paul Bernardo it may just be a case of the devil knowing his own.

Why wouldn't he be a victim of his environment? Maybe, like many sex offenders, he was secretly abused himself as a child? We don't know that. Maybe the fame he found greatly exacerbated his already narcissistic personality and combined with his increasing lust for more and more depraved sex.

Environment can have a profound effect on people's actions, you only have to look at any number of atrocities that have been commited in wars around the world to know that seemingly ordinary people from all kinds of backgrounds, can, given certain circumstances, commit the most heinous acts.

None of this, no matter how much understanding, excuses him for the crimes he has commited.

Loulou

I do totally agree that he should be thoroughly assessed to delve into possible reasons for his behaviour, your right, it could help in spotting future cases. Although, i don't know that any past abuse really excuses or even really creates an abuser because I know plenty of people who were abused who don't act out the way he has done. It would be interesting to look into why past abuse can effect some and not others that way.

facepollution

Loulou wrote:

I do totally agree that he should be thoroughly assessed to delve into possible reasons for his behaviour, your right, it could help in spotting future cases. Although, i don't know that any past abuse really excuses or even really creates an abuser because I know plenty of people who were abused who don't act out the way he has done. It would be interesting to look into why past abuse can effect some and not others that way.

Just to clarify, past abuse does not excuse his behaviour, it might help to explain, but it doesn't in any way justify what he's done. With respect, I think we need to look past comparisons with people we know etc, yes they might share a history of abuse, but the rest of their life experiences/biological makeup will be completely different.

badbrains

WOW!!! WTF!! This guys a complete waste of a human. You know, he's NO HUMAN! What a fucken animal. What the fuck is going on with the human race! Jesus. Unfuckenreal. Fucken scumbag :twisted:

goldrush

Brief statement from Lostprophets:

http://instagram.com/p/hX6dbqxlsh/#

Digital Twilight

Sickening read

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lo ... ed-2870635

facepollution

Digital Twilight wrote:

Sickening read

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/lo ... ed-2870635

So grim, just when you think this story couldn't get any worse, more details come out.......

To be fair, I remember reading accusations about him and his interest in underage girls a couple of years ago on some gossip message board, I guess I just presumed it was made up gossip. It's crazy that his ex girlfriend went to the police FOUR years ago and they did nothing about it, truly shocking stuff.

jasonbouchard88

Ian Watkins has been sentenced to 35 years in jail for his crimes. Good f*****' riddance!

http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/2013/12/18/21 ... story.html

DewieCox

jasonbouchard88 wrote:

Ian Watkins has been sentenced to 35 years in jail for his crimes. Good f*****' riddance!

http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/2013/12/18/21 ... story.html

Seen that and about threw my ipad across the room. Scumbag needs to go away forever. Put a bullet in his head or chain him to a wall in the basement of a prison.

JimNastics

I give it a couple of a months before we hear that he has been utterly fucked up beyond all recognition in prison... at least I hope so. I think what is coming to him is going to be brutal beyond words. I'm sure he'll take the cowards way out at some point in the next few years.